SAIS application for Fall 2013

[Clay Made]

I don't think SAIS is in the same league as HKS and WWS, nor is SFS. SAIS and SFS both have great reputations in foreign policy circles, but their appeal to the private sector is (in my view) a complete myth that accompanies the "rigorous quant curriculum" marketing strategy that all public policy schools use. Private sector placement will have much more to do with the city you're in, I think, which explains why schools outside DC have a higher median private sector salary while both SAIS and SFS excel in median public sector salaries.

 

I think thats a little harsh. SAIS is definitely on the level of HKS and WWS. HKS is more domestic focused anyway so I doubt it will do better then SAIS in the private sector.

[myacu]

Hello Im starting next fall in DC at SAIS. Just to throw in my two cents for those of you struggling to find funding have you applied to any fellowships? Particularly foreign service programs like the Pickering and Rangel? Last year I had zero funding so I deferred for a year to save up more money. Now I will be starting on a full ride scholarship plus living stipend and after I graduate I will start A100 in the foreign service. I gather not all of you are oriented towards the public sector but if you havent exhausted all of your financing options definitely consider applying for a fellowship next year. Id be happy to give any advice.

[soaps]

I think thats a little harsh. SAIS is definitely on the level of HKS and WWS. HKS is more domestic focused anyway so I doubt it will do better then SAIS in the private sector.

 

Definitely on the level of HKS and WWS? In terms of what? SAIS, SFS, SIPA, and Fletcher are more-or-less interchangeable and I don't think any will confer a measurable benefit over any other--you choose the one that best suits your interests/values--but Pton and Harvard both have a brand name and alumni network that are unbeatable across all sectors. SAIS has a great brand name... for the public sector. Outside the public sector, I think some of you are really stretching the awareness and versatility of SAIS, especially since the statistics don't back it up. If anything, I think SFS has the better reputation in DC since it's more selective, smaller, and Gtown is a more versatile/well-known brand name.

 

The prestige calculus is stupid, though. Quality-wise it's hard to say any of these programs are better than any other. We all have biases and individual interests/goals and the public sector reputation is all that should matter--that's where SAIS excels.

Edited March 20, 2013 by soapwater

[ridofme]

I think we are all making a lot of assumptions about how far the brand name of any school will take us. Alumni networks and a school's career services may certainly help us get that first job, which is indeed important for all subsequent jobs. But after that, it's going to be about the experience you gain at each position.

 

I can tell you that my dad graduated from a top 5 business school (not HBS, but another one of the programs that Revolution seems to drool over) about 30 years ago, and he recently told me that he has never once gotten a job because of an alumni connection. Most of his networking success stories have come from contacts he made at different companies by actually working there. A lot of those contacts went to regional business schools, or no business school at all. Certainly when people have looked at his resume, they have probably been impressed by the pedigree. But it's not like he can just walk his finger down the alumni directory and get any position he wants. That is a myth that a lot of these schools propogate - including the top MBA programs.

 

It can never hurt to have a degree from a school that is perceived to be elite. If we were debating between HKS and South Central Oklahoma State (I just made that up, btw), I would get it. However, I think we're deluding ourselves when we try to parse out the varying degrees of prestige between SAIS and SFS, or when we start to believe that attending HKS would put us on a totally different career trajectory than Fletcher. For those who are using the MA-IR or MPP as an ersatz MBA, then the calculus might be different (i.e. overall recognition of the institution becomes more important than strength of the program in the public sector field). But for those of us who are actually pursuing these degress for their intended purpose - to work in the public sector, or in public/private intersections - any of these top tier institutions will likely do us just fine. At the end of the day, our talent, hard work, and hussle will mean more than a line on our resumes (assuming that line is there in some form, and from a reasonably reputable institution).

[soaps]

I think we are all making a lot of assumptions about how far the brand name of any school will take us. Alumni networks and a school's career services may certainly help us get that first job, which is indeed important for all subsequent jobs. But after that, it's going to be about the experience you gain at each position.

 

I can tell you that my dad graduated from a top 5 business school (not HBS, but another one of the programs that Revolution seems to drool over) about 30 years ago, and he recently told me that he has never once gotten a job because of an alumni connection. Most of his networking success stories have come from contacts he made at different companies by actually working there. A lot of those contacts went to regional business schools, or no business school at all. Certainly when people have looked at his resume, they have probably been impressed by the pedigree. But it's not like he can just walk his finger down the alumni directory and get any position he wants. That is a myth that a lot of these schools propogate - including the top MBA programs.

 

It can never hurt to have a degree from a school that is perceived to be elite. If we were debating between HKS and South Central Oklahoma State (I just made that up, btw), I would get it. However, I think we're deluding ourselves when we try to parse out the varying degrees of prestige between SAIS and SFS, or when we start to believe that attending HKS would put us on a totally different career trajectory than Fletcher. For those who are using the MA-IR or MPP as an ersatz MBA, then the calculus might be different (i.e. overall recognition of the institution becomes more important than strength of the program in the public sector field). But for those of us who are actually pursuing these degress for their intended purpose - to work in the public sector, or in public/private intersections - any of these top tier institutions will likely do us just fine. At the end of the day, our talent, hard work, and hussle will mean more than a line on our resumes (assuming that line is there in some form, and from a reasonably reputable institution).

 

I agree! But we were talking about private sector jobs and SAIS, and I think reports of SAIS's recognition and marketability for the private sector have been greatly exaggerated. Where do people get this impression? I'm genuinely curious because it'd be nice to know.

Edited March 20, 2013 by soapwater

[Goose1459]

Dinged at MSFS so now there's a strong likelihood I'm headed to SAIS Bologna in the fall. I'll probably be attending the SIPA and SAIS Open Houses just to make sure. 

 

P.S. - Just realized my GradCafe status went from Decaf to Caffeinated!!!

Edited March 20, 2013 by Goose1459

[dyavrom]

has anyone heard back from the Priscilla Mason Fellowship yet?

[123seekay123]

To change subjects a little -- I'm curious to hear what SAIS student groups everyone has been thinking about joining, or starting. Does anyone have first-hand information on how fun, useful, demanding, etc. the clubs are?  

I'm curious about this as well. Also, how does it work for Bologna students when they get back to DC?

[Revolution]

I don't think SAIS is in the same league as HKS and WWS, nor is SFS. SAIS and SFS both have great reputations in foreign policy circles, but their appeal to the private sector is (in my view) a complete myth that accompanies the "rigorous quant curriculum" marketing strategy that all public policy schools use. Private sector placement will have much more to do with the city you're in, I think, which explains why schools outside DC have a higher median private sector salary while both SAIS and SFS excel in median public sector salaries.

 

If anything, it would seem that SAIS is better for the private sector than HKS. About 47% go into the private sector and the curriculum is much more well-suited for that area than HKS, which is heavily focused on public service and domestic policy. What makes you think that SAIS is a lot worse than HKS for private sector jobs?

[Revolution]

I think we are all making a lot of assumptions about how far the brand name of any school will take us. Alumni networks and a school's career services may certainly help us get that first job, which is indeed important for all subsequent jobs. But after that, it's going to be about the experience you gain at each position.

 

I can tell you that my dad graduated from a top 5 business school (not HBS, but another one of the programs that Revolution seems to drool over) about 30 years ago, and he recently told me that he has never once gotten a job because of an alumni connection. Most of his networking success stories have come from contacts he made at different companies by actually working there. A lot of those contacts went to regional business schools, or no business school at all. Certainly when people have looked at his resume, they have probably been impressed by the pedigree. But it's not like he can just walk his finger down the alumni directory and get any position he wants. That is a myth that a lot of these schools propogate - including the top MBA programs.

 

It can never hurt to have a degree from a school that is perceived to be elite. If we were debating between HKS and South Central Oklahoma State (I just made that up, btw), I would get it. However, I think we're deluding ourselves when we try to parse out the varying degrees of prestige between SAIS and SFS, or when we start to believe that attending HKS would put us on a totally different career trajectory than Fletcher. For those who are using the MA-IR or MPP as an ersatz MBA, then the calculus might be different (i.e. overall recognition of the institution becomes more important than strength of the program in the public sector field). But for those of us who are actually pursuing these degress for their intended purpose - to work in the public sector, or in public/private intersections - any of these top tier institutions will likely do us just fine. At the end of the day, our talent, hard work, and hussle will mean more than a line on our resumes (assuming that line is there in some form, and from a reasonably reputable institution).

 

 

No one (certainly not me) is saying that by just going to a top b-school you can get any job you want by going down the alumni list. I mean, come on. That is a silly extreme argument to make. I agree that b-schools tend to inflate the network aspect a bit too much, and I suppose that's all part of any school's marketing. But from talking to countless students and alums of top b-schools, they all thought it was worth it on every level, even though they may not have gotten their ideal job and they took out tons in loans. Going to grad school is both a short and long-term bet. On the short end, you're betting that you can get a job you want coming out. On the long end, you're hoping that the name brand, education, network, etc., can help you move up the ladder, to transition to a different field, and/or do something really awesome that you may not have imagined when you were in school. To use a trading analogy, it's both an at-the-money call option (hedging career volatility) and an out of the money call option (capitalizing immensely on the small chance that your school and network will lead to huge gains).  With top b-schools, I'm 100% confident that it will do the former since my "worst" case scenario is making $100K+ at a mediocre bank or consulting firm.  With SAIS, the downside could be huge, and I'm not yet sure what the upside is. I have a general feeling of what type of jobs I might be able to get, but I just don't know for sure.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Revolution

[soaps]

The SAIS website says 41%, which is comparable to SIPA. That's the number of people choosing to go into each sector, not necessarily a measure of the program's value to that sector. HKS may also have a selection bias for people more devoted to public service. The median salary for SAIS in the private sector is much, much lower, but it's impossible to tell how much of that is due to HKS dual degrees. Overall there's no reliable data for someone to think SAIS is more marketable for a private sector job.

[Revolution]

The SAIS website says 41%, which is comparable to SIPA. That's the number of people choosing to go into each sector, not necessarily a measure of the program's value to that sector. HKS may also have a selection bias for people more devoted to public service. The median salary for SAIS in the private sector is much, much lower, but it's impossible to tell how much of that is due to HKS dual degrees. Overall there's no reliable data for someone to think SAIS is more marketable for a private sector job.

 

Fair enough. When I looked at HKS MPA2, there was a huge gap in % going into the private sector between joint MBA students and MPA2 alone. That's to be expected however.

[ridofme]

I've noticed that a lot of people who go to SAIS have private sector backgrounds. Even looking at LinkedIn profiles, a lot of SAIS students/grads were in some kind of analyst position prior to enrolling. HKS students are much more likely to have done the Peace Corps or TFA, or worked at an NGO. While maybe jobs at the WB or Treasury don't pay a lot initially, they probably better facilitate lateral moves to more lucrative private sector gigs a few years down the road. That's harder to do if you're working for the Sierra Club, a charter school, or the State Department (as HKS grads might be more inclined to do). Maybe that's where the SAIS reputation comes from. Or maybe it's just some GradCafe old wives tale.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ridofme

[Revolution]

I've noticed that a lot of people who go to SAIS have private sector backgrounds. Even looking at LinkedIn profiles, a lot of SAIS students/grads were in some kind of analyst position prior to enrolling. HKS students are much more likely to have done the Peace Corps or TFA, or worked at an NGO. While maybe jobs at the WB or Treasury don't pay a lot initially, they probably better facilitate lateral moves to more lucrative private sector gigs a few years down the road. That's harder to do if you're working for the Sierra Club, a charter school, or the State Department (as HKS grads might be more inclined to do). Maybe that's where the SAIS reputation comes from. Or maybe it's just some GradCafe old wives tale.

 

This was what I gathered as well based on my research and talking to people.

 

A guy i know interviewed with a group at treasury where the common exit opp was macro hedge funds and top b-schools.

[Clay Made]

This was what I gathered as well based on my research and talking to people.

 

A guy i know interviewed with a group at treasury where the common exit opp was macro hedge funds and top b-schools.

 

I'm confused. An exit opp should surely mean a better job. How does business school equal better?

[Revolution]

I'm confused. An exit opp should surely mean a better job. How does business school equal better?

 

Some people (myself included obviously) would turn down a high paying job to go to an elite b-school for various reasons. I've discussed some of them here. I mean i know people at hbs/stanford/wharton who were working in private equity and making $300K+ including bonus at age 26-27 but LEFT those jobs to go back to school. From a purely economic sense it may not seem prudent since their opportunity cost is enormous. But they believe that the long-term benefits of going to those schools will outweigh whatever amount they lost during the 2-year time period. Moreover, there are also the social and personal benefits that simply cannot be ignored. Just one example: i was at an alumni event and met a guy who went to one of those top 3 b-schools. He worked at a major private equity firm in boston before school and he talked about how much he enjoyed b-school and how he met his fiancee there. When these alums talk about their mba experience, you can clearly tell that it was the best time of their lives and it's something that you can't simply quantify. I for one would turn down a $500K/year job easily for admission to HBS and would take out a $200K loan with a smile on my face.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Revolution

[rhodeislander]

...on that note, for anyone considering the Bologna program who's sick of all this MBA talk, or simply finds it irrelevant, someone started a new thread on SAIS Bologna that will hopefully stay on topic and won't devolve into a cesspool of negativity. Ya'll are welcome to find us over there!

[dyavrom]

i agree to keep the discussions the topic of SAIS and how the school will benefit us.  and friendly reminder that there is another webinar tomorrow at 11am EST on student life.  link below

 

https://connect.johnshopkins.edu/studentlife

Edited March 21, 2013 by dyavrom

[Clay Made]

Some people (myself included obviously) would turn down a high paying job to go to an elite b-school for various reasons. I've discussed some of them here. I mean i know people at hbs/stanford/wharton who were working in private equity and making $300K+ including bonus at age 26-27 but LEFT those jobs to go back to school. From a purely economic sense it may not seem prudent since their opportunity cost is enormous. But they believe that the long-term benefits of going to those schools will outweigh whatever amount they lost during the 2-year time period. Moreover, there are also the social and personal benefits that simply cannot be ignored. Just one example: i was at an alumni event and met a guy who went to one of those top 3 b-schools. He worked at a major private equity firm in boston before school and he talked about how much he enjoyed b-school and how he met his fiancee there. When these alums talk about their mba experience, you can clearly tell that it was the best time of their lives and it's something that you can't simply quantify. I for one would turn down a $500K/year job easily for admission to HBS and would take out a $200K loan with a smile on my face.

 

OH MY GOD. WOW. You're something, aren't you?

[rhodeislander]

OH MY GOD. WOW. You're something, aren't you?

You think that's crazy, you shouldve been here a few days ago for his "I have to go to business school because I'll never get any girls with a crappy IR degree" spiel

Edited March 21, 2013 by rhodeislander

[riverguide]

You think that's crazy, you shouldve been here a few days ago for his "I have to go to business school because I'll never get any girls with a crappy IR degree" spiel

 

I think its time to vote Revolution off the island...unless he'd like to discuss international studies which is what brought most of us to SAIS (School of Advanced International Studies ). SAIS doesn't offer an MBA nor does it offer a buffet of retail broker fantasies...

[Revolution]

The SAIS website says 41%, which is comparable to SIPA. That's the number of people choosing to go into each sector, not necessarily a measure of the program's value to that sector. HKS may also have a selection bias for people more devoted to public service. The median salary for SAIS in the private sector is much, much lower, but it's impossible to tell how much of that is due to HKS dual degrees. Overall there's no reliable data for someone to think SAIS is more marketable for a private sector job.

 

I'm very curious to know what the 80% range is for SAIS salary coming out. So half the people going into the private sector make more than $65k/year base salary, but i wonder if the upper half is clustered in the 65-80K or we see a decent mix of $100K-120K folks, mostly those who have prior finance or consulting experience.

[JMO]

Some people (myself included obviously) would turn down a high paying job to go to an elite b-school for various reasons. I've discussed some of them here. I mean i know people at hbs/stanford/wharton who were working in private equity and making $300K+ including bonus at age 26-27 but LEFT those jobs to go back to school. From a purely economic sense it may not seem prudent since their opportunity cost is enormous. But they believe that the long-term benefits of going to those schools will outweigh whatever amount they lost during the 2-year time period. Moreover, there are also the social and personal benefits that simply cannot be ignored. Just one example: i was at an alumni event and met a guy who went to one of those top 3 b-schools. He worked at a major private equity firm in boston before school and he talked about how much he enjoyed b-school and how he met his fiancee there. When these alums talk about their mba experience, you can clearly tell that it was the best time of their lives and it's something that you can't simply quantify. I for one would turn down a $500K/year job easily for admission to HBS and would take out a $200K loan with a smile on my face.

 

Smart man...turn down 500K job, to take out loans, then go to b-school, to accept job paying 160K.  The Logic of a Snob

[riverguide]

Smart man...turn down 500K job, to take out loans, then go to b-school, to accept job paying 160K.  The Logic of a Snob

 

Revolution reminds me of a guy I knew who was interested in buying a Harley. He'd never ridden a bike before. He went down to the Harley dealer and bought a bunch of Harley clothes. Harley jeans, chaps, beater, T shirts...because he wanted to determine if he liked the Harley life style before he bought a Harley.

[ansac111]

I'm very curious to know what the 80% range is for SAIS salary coming out. So half the people going into the private sector make more than $65k/year base salary, but i wonder if the upper half is clustered in the 65-80K or we see a decent mix of $100K-120K folks, mostly those who have prior finance or consulting experience.

Did you get any response from SAIS on detailed split of organisations recruiting there?