Enough rejections to warrant considering a life outside of academia?

[anoveldave]

So 6 of my 13 schools have gotten back to me. All rejections. There were a few that were not completely unexpected, but there were others that I had thought to be great fits. At this point, I'm (objectively) considering a life outside of academia. Aside from the fact that a PhD doesn't guarantee any plush life sitting in a leather ottoman with tenure, I've been thinking about my eventual career goals, and realized that it doesn't have to include a PhD program. In other words, I've been able to imagine a path not involving more schooling and that whole world (though I'd have less of a head start with my near non-existent work experience in the real world). 

 

Though I haven't *given up*, I have found a few great opportunities to which I'm applying. If I get job A and also get accepted into school B, I'm currently leaning toward pursuing a professional career. Just wondering if there are any others in this boat back to the *real world*?

[Gwendolyn]

It's still early and you have 7 schools to go. It's good to have a back up plan, but perhaps you should wait a bit so as to not waste the time of any potential employers. Who knows? You might get 7 acceptances over the next few weeks. 

 

Remember it only takes 1. 

Edited February 21, 2013 by Gwendolyn

[ohgoodness]

Another field but I have one good acceptances... and two job possibilities.   After applying and getting some rejections - I looked at the situation and found that it would probably be a smarter move to go into the professional track rather than the educational.  My  one acceptance is at a top20 but I, being non-US, feel that it would probably not allow me to stay in the us or find anything above lower rung associate-status or post-doc.   I have a good MA already so not sure what a semi-good phd would add to the package unless I was really set on the academic world.. 

 

That said - I am incredibly happy that I did apply and if I get into a better fit then I will have to have a harder think about the situation. 

[intextrovert]

So 6 of my 13 schools have gotten back to me. All rejections. There were a few that were not completely unexpected, but there were others that I had thought to be great fits. At this point, I'm (objectively) considering a life outside of academia. Aside from the fact that a PhD doesn't guarantee any plush life sitting in a leather ottoman with tenure, I've been thinking about my eventual career goals, and realized that it doesn't have to include a PhD program. In other words, I've been able to imagine a path not involving more schooling and that whole world (though I'd have less of a head start with my near non-existent work experience in the real world). 

 

Though I haven't *given up*, I have found a few great opportunities to which I'm applying. If I get job A and also get accepted into school B, I'm currently leaning toward pursuing a professional career. Just wondering if there are any others in this boat back to the *real world*?

 

I think this is great. Though Gwendolyn is very right and you could still easily get some acceptances, I'll just tell you what my undergrad advisor (who was the first to suggest to me that I go to grad school so it wasn't just a subtle discouragement technique) told me when I was starting to think about applying: "If you can imagine yourself happy and fulfilled doing anything else, do that." Academia in the humanities is a tough road, jobs are scarce and mean you don't get a ton of choice in where you live, and a frightening number of brilliant people end up doing low-wage, benefit-free labor as adjuncts. While I ultimately decided that I couldn't live with not doing it, and I'm happy with my choice and don't begrudge anyone else who makes the same one, I do still think that was good advice. If you're even tempted, try it! It's harder to start on a non-academic career track after a lot of time in academia than the other way around. Good luck either way!

[anoveldave]

Gwendolyn: You're definitely right in that I shouldn't and needn't give up hope. More than half of the schools to which I've applied still remain, and it seems that nothing's for certain with this whole process. 

 

ohgoodness: I think I'm the same, in that the more I think about it, the more sense it seems to make to pursue a professional career instead of in education.

 

intextrovert: I remember getting the same advice (in undergrad and also after I completed my MA and really started thinking about PhD programs). I did spend a lot of time (during my MA program) contemplating whether I needed to be in academic circles, as well as whether I need to even creatively write and try for that whole life too. I think I've realized that you can have any job and still write (e.g. William Carlos Williams), but I suppose a part of me that applied to PhD programs wasn't totally sure about it at the time even. As everyone else surely knows, there are a lot of personal factors in applying to and pursuing a PhD program. Right now, I don't know if I'm willing to put off *life* per se for another 5-8 years.

 

Looks like I'll be applying to a handful of job opportunities, and hopefully a path, any path will appear in the next month or so.

[Ategenos]

I hate the expression "putting off life". It devalues an entire set of choices, and is founded upon the common societal discourse concerning academics: that they don't work hard, and that it's some kind of easy ride... Getting a job outside academia is a choice. Continuing the academic process is also a choice. Life is what happens when we're making these choices, and is not dependent on the option we choose.

 

Saying that, if you've decided an alternative path is the one for you, this is cool... and I am happy that the whole process made you realise what it is that you want to do.

[anoveldave]

Ategenos: I didn't mean to make it sound as though I was relegating the academic choice to some sort of "self-imposed exile from real society" idea. However, I do think that by choosing to stay in a campus community bubble as a graduate student, you can't help but put off certain life choices because of financial fetters. That's not to say that certain things are impossible, but I think it's definitely much more difficult to house thoughts of having a family (for example) if you're only able to live off of your fellowship as opposed to a salary. Of course, that (family, baby, house) idea of life is another set of values and whatnot that not everyone shares. Generally speaking, I believe that I have certain responsibilities to self, family, etc. that will be harder to fulfill if I don't have an income. I suppose that brings us to the idea that with the supersaturation of PhD applicants and holders, and the nature of the global economy, PhD programs might move further out of reach for persons of a certain socioeconomic stratum and below. 

 

Anyway, I was just curious as to whether there were any other applicants who were coming to reconsider the education route in favor of the professional.

[Ategenos]

Ategenos: I didn't mean to make it sound as though I was relegating the academic choice to some sort of "self-imposed exile from real society" idea. However, I do think that by choosing to stay in a campus community bubble as a graduate student, you can't help but put off certain life choices because of financial fetters. That's not to say that certain things are impossible, but I think it's definitely much more difficult to house thoughts of having a family (for example) if you're only able to live off of your fellowship as opposed to a salary. Of course, that (family, baby, house) idea of life is another set of values and whatnot that not everyone shares. Generally speaking, I believe that I have certain responsibilities to self, family, etc. that will be harder to fulfill if I don't have an income. I suppose that brings us to the idea that with the supersaturation of PhD applicants and holders, and the nature of the global economy, PhD programs might move further out of reach for persons of a certain socioeconomic stratum and below. 

 

Anyway, I was just curious as to whether there were any other applicants who were coming to reconsider the education route in favor of the professional.

 

It's no problem, really. I'm just being overly sensitive, I'd imagine, but it's just such a common thing to hear - that the whole normal job+house+baby is the assumed ideal, and that deviations from that norm makes you some kind of weirdo.

[anoveldave]

It's no problem, really. I'm just being overly sensitive, I'd imagine, but it's just such a common thing to hear - that the whole normal job+house+baby is the assumed ideal, and that deviations from that norm makes you some kind of weirdo.

 

Totally understandable. There's definitely a need for some sort of "Humanities Apologetics." Especially with the global endorsement of sciences and practical education, though I do think the sciences are just as important.

 

I don't think people give just even applicants to grad school enough credit for how much they've thought out their futures. No doubt that every one of us has come to the decision to apply, and then accept, and then go on to grad school after wrestling with all the voices inside our heads.

[Mercyhurst2010]

As far as I'm concerned, even those who are fortunate enough to pull 100% acceptances should be considering a life outside of academia. The job market is a nightmare, and it likely won't get much better any time soon. I almost didn't apply to PhD programs after my MA because I realized, while being a bit closer to these discussions as an MA student, that the possibility of never finding permanent employment in academia that pays a living wage over the poverty line is very real--even for the best of the best. Or, to put it another way, the job search seems a lot like what we are experiencing now with applying to grad programs. Only, instead of applying to 5-15 programs and hoping to get into two or three so you'll have a choice, it's a matter of applying to 250 job postings and hoping you'll get one interview--and that you ace it.

 

Not to be a debbie-downer, but I took a year off after my MA to reflect on this. Would earning a PhD in English, and the opportunities for intellectual enrichment it entails, be an end in itself? Would I be willing, if I had no other choice, to change careers completely in my early thirties and consider another line work if I couldn't find a decent position after two or three application cycles? It turns out that I realized I would be okay with that. Of course, my dream is to get that tenure-track assistant professorship with a 4/4 teaching load at a small, cozy 4 year college. But if that doesn't happen, I'll have accomplished quite a bit in earning a PhD in a subject I love, and for the next five years, until I'm on the job market, I will definitely be putting together a series of backup plans. And I will take my preparation for those non-academic career possibilities almost, if not entirely, as seriously as I take my prepping for the academic job search.

[anoveldave]

As far as I'm concerned, even those who are fortunate enough to pull 100% acceptances should be considering a life outside of academia. The job market is a nightmare, and it likely won't get much better any time soon. I almost didn't apply to PhD programs after my MA because I realized, while being a bit closer to these discussions as an MA student, that the possibility of never finding permanent employment in academia that pays a living wage over the poverty line is very real--even for the best of the best. Or, to put it another way, the job search seems a lot like what we are experiencing now with applying to grad programs. Only, instead of applying to 5-15 programs and hoping to get into two or three so you'll have a choice, it's a matter of applying to 250 job postings and hoping you'll get one interview--and that you ace it.

 

Not to be a debbie-downer, but I took a year off after my MA to reflect on this. Would earning a PhD in English, and the opportunities for intellectual enrichment it entails, be an end in itself? Would I be willing, if I had no other choice, to change careers completely in my early thirties and consider another line work if I couldn't find a decent position after two or three application cycles? It turns out that I realized I would be okay with that. Of course, my dream is to get that tenure-track assistant professorship with a 4/4 teaching load at a small, cozy 4 year college. But if that doesn't happen, I'll have accomplished quite a bit in earning a PhD in a subject I love, and for the next five years, until I'm on the job market, I will definitely be putting together a series of backup plans. And I will take my preparation for those non-academic career possibilities almost, if not entirely, as seriously as I take my prepping for the academic job search.

I appreciate your points on this. What's key for me might be the question you posed about changing careers after the PhD. Personally, I don't think that's something that I would be able to do, which changes how I see the PhD. As much as I'm sure that I'd enjoy it, and the intellectual growth that'd come with it, I don't know if I'd be able to free myself of this and that responsibility to even consider a career change at that point. That being said, your first comment on the nature of the job market in academia is something that heavily affects my thinking right now. Having to be realistic, I might need to look to a different road.

[rems]

So 6 of my 13 schools have gotten back to me. All rejections. There were a few that were not completely unexpected, but there were others that I had thought to be great fits. At this point, I'm (objectively) considering a life outside of academia. Aside from the fact that a PhD doesn't guarantee any plush life sitting in a leather ottoman with tenure, I've been thinking about my eventual career goals, and realized that it doesn't have to include a PhD program. In other words, I've been able to imagine a path not involving more schooling and that whole world (though I'd have less of a head start with my near non-existent work experience in the real world). 

 

Though I haven't *given up*, I have found a few great opportunities to which I'm applying. If I get job A and also get accepted into school B, I'm currently leaning toward pursuing a professional career. Just wondering if there are any others in this boat back to the *real world*?

 

This, and yes. I have been considering this for a while now. I only applied to six schools, have been rejected from 4, awaiting assumed rejections from 2 schools. That being said, I think it's best if I start thinking about other career paths. I've even started the application process for a few jobs I think might be a good fit for me just in case the other two schools turn out to be a rejection. I think what happened to me (I stress to me -- I by no means, by what I'm about to say, want to influence anyone else or say that you're making the wrong decisions, etc.) is these rejections have almost opened my eyes a little. Because I had to start thinking about Plan B, it almost has started to overshadow Plan A, a little. I say this begrudgingly because I really enjoy being in school, I love reading, writing, all the stuff. What I started to notice was how small my bank account is. What I started to notice was how much I hate writing seminar papers. What I started to notice was that even with a full tuition waiver and 19K stipend, I might have to take out more loans. What I started to notice is that even the best from the best schools end up as an adjunct.  What I started to notice was 80 hrs. weeks. What I started to notice was not being to chose anything about my life because I have to go where the jobs are. What I've started to notice is that I want my day to end at 5 pm, not carry into the night trying to finish those annotations, or the proposal, or that seminar paper. All of that, is what I've started notice. And, honestly, I'm not it's really the life for me. I've actually never, NEVER, considered doing anything besides being an academic, but now here I am writing this response saying that I'm applying for other jobs and that I'm not even going to reapply next year. Honestly, I'm very tired of this lifestyle. I have been in "school" for 8 years now, and I'm not totally positive that I want to keep going. 

 

This is a totally personal decision, and I by no means am trying to say that someone should not pursue their degree if that's what they want. BUT, I think some of us, having gone through this process now, are starting to think it's best to move on and find another career. I hate to sound blunt, but at what point does one have to admit that they might not get what they want, get up, brush their pants off, and just move on? I'm not 100% sure about anything in my life, but I totally get that this whole thing is starting to make re-think my life.  

[AurantiacaStella]

I just want to add that you can get a PhD and have a "life" at the same time. You can choose to have a family while in graduate school (of course this is probably dependent on your partner having a decent job to supplement your stipend). You can choose how much time you spend on this. You can choose whether or not you will go wherever a job is, and if other things are more important to you, then you can choose to seek a job outside of the top-tier, or even outside academia. It depends on the stipend, but many of them are better than the minimum wage, so personally (for those of us with the option) I would much rather take this experience of getting a PhD than working in a dead-end job. And, obviously we'll all make choices and compromises as we go, but if given good funding, getting a PhD is a worthwhile in and of itself, IMHO.

[rems]

I just want to add that you can get a PhD and have a "life" at the same time. You can choose to have a family while in graduate school (of course this is probably dependent on your partner having a decent job to supplement your stipend). You can choose how much time you spend on this. You can choose whether or not you will go wherever a job is, and if other things are more important to you, then you can choose to seek a job outside of the top-tier, or even outside academia. It depends on the stipend, but many of them are better than the minimum wage, so personally (for those of us with the option) I would much rather take this experience of getting a PhD than working in a dead-end job. And, obviously we'll all make choices and compromises as we go, but if given good funding, getting a PhD is a worthwhile in and of itself, IMHO.

 

Right, but you don't get to choose if you go if you keep getting rejected from schools. I don't think anyone on here is saying getting a PhD is a bad idea. At least what I was saying, is that I've never, ever, even considered the alternative, but I'm being forced to because I might not get accepted anywhere. I could apply again next year, or the year after, or the year after, but that doesn't guarantee a spot. So what happens then? Also, having to consider the alternative has required just that: considering the alternative. And when it's something you've never considered before, it can be eye opening. The grass is always greener on the other side. 

[ErnestPWorrell]

This, and yes. I have been considering this for a while now. I only applied to six schools, have been rejected from 4, awaiting assumed rejections from 2 schools. That being said, I think it's best if I start thinking about other career paths. I've even started the application process for a few jobs I think might be a good fit for me just in case the other two schools turn out to be a rejection. I think what happened to me (I stress to me -- I by no means, by what I'm about to say, want to influence anyone else or say that you're making the wrong decisions, etc.) is these rejections have almost opened my eyes a little. Because I had to start thinking about Plan B, it almost has started to overshadow Plan A, a little. I say this begrudgingly because I really enjoy being in school, I love reading, writing, all the stuff. What I started to notice was how small my bank account is. What I started to notice was how much I hate writing seminar papers. What I started to notice was that even with a full tuition waiver and 19K stipend, I might have to take out more loans. What I started to notice is that even the best from the best schools end up as an adjunct.  What I started to notice was 80 hrs. weeks. What I started to notice was not being to chose anything about my life because I have to go where the jobs are. What I've started to notice is that I want my day to end at 5 pm, not carry into the night trying to finish those annotations, or the proposal, or that seminar paper. All of that, is what I've started notice. And, honestly, I'm not it's really the life for me. I've actually never, NEVER, considered doing anything besides being an academic, but now here I am writing this response saying that I'm applying for other jobs and that I'm not even going to reapply next year. Honestly, I'm very tired of this lifestyle. I have been in "school" for 8 years now, and I'm not totally positive that I want to keep going.    This is a totally personal decision, and I by no means am trying to say that someone should not pursue their degree if that's what they want. BUT, I think some of us, having gone through this process now, are starting to think it's best to move on and find another career. I hate to sound blunt, but at what point does one have to admit that they might not get what they want, get up, brush their pants off, and just move on? I'm not 100% sure about anything in my life, but I totally get that this whole thing is starting to make re-think my life.  

Girl, you smart. Thanks for this.

[AurantiacaStella]

Right, but you don't get to choose if you go if you keep getting rejected from schools. I don't think anyone on here is saying getting a PhD is a bad idea. At least what I was saying, is that I've never, ever, even considered the alternative, but I'm being forced to because I might not get accepted anywhere. I could apply again next year, or the year after, or the year after, but that doesn't guarantee a spot. So what happens then? Also, having to consider the alternative has required just that: considering the alternative. And when it's something you've never considered before, it can be eye opening. The grass is always greener on the other side. 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean that as a direct response to what you wrote. I actually think it is very important to think about alternatives (before & after the PhD) and really quite naive not to, so I'm glad this thread exists. I think we should all acknowledge that there are plenty of other ways -- outside academia -- for us to live happy and fulfilled lives. We just have to be open to the opportunities that are available to us, whether they are what we originally expected/hoped for, or not.

[dazedandbemused]

I'm really glad that this thread exists, too. Whenever people say that they'll apply for five years if they have to because being an academic is the only thing they can see themselves doing, I wonder whether that's a healthy point of view. The idea that if one pursues an academic career it should be their entire life, is so problematic to me. It seems more like self-flagellation than anything else. I honestly think that we should all think very seriously about whether or not academia is the place for us, and while I admire people who apply three or four times to a certain extent, I also know that if I hadn't been successful this app season, I would have moved on with my life. I don't think that shows a lack of dedication, but I just think the idea that one's "dream" is more important than living a viable lifestyle is ridiculous and naive. I mean, it's amazing to live your first dream, but sometimes a secondary dream will have to do.

[t1racyjacks]

I'll try one or 2 more times and if I can't get in by then, fuck it, I'm doing something else. *sigh*

[practical cat]

I'm really glad that this thread exists, too. Whenever people say that they'll apply for five years if they have to because being an academic is the only thing they can see themselves doing, I wonder whether that's a healthy point of view. The idea that if one pursues an academic career it should be their entire life, is so problematic to me. It seems more like self-flagellation than anything else. I honestly think that we should all think very seriously about whether or not academia is the place for us, and while I admire people who apply three or four times to a certain extent, I also know that if I hadn't been successful this app season, I would have moved on with my life. I don't think that shows a lack of dedication, but I just think the idea that one's "dream" is more important than living a viable lifestyle is ridiculous and naive. I mean, it's amazing to live your first dream, but sometimes a secondary dream will have to do.

Exactly. I keep saying I have two cycles in me and I'm out. There are plenty of other careers out there that I could obsessively devote my life to, this is just the first choice one.

[rems]

Sorry, I didn't mean that as a direct response to what you wrote. I actually think it is very important to think about alternatives (before & after the PhD) and really quite naive not to, so I'm glad this thread exists. I think we should all acknowledge that there are plenty of other ways -- outside academia -- for us to live happy and fulfilled lives. We just have to be open to the opportunities that are available to us, whether they are what we originally expected/hoped for, or not.

 

I see what you're saying, and I agree. I also get annoyed when people say that being an academic isn't being in "real life." Because whatever you choose to do with your life, that's your "life." And so I totally understand defending the lifestyle and stuff. I think I was being defensive. 

 

I'm really glad that this thread exists, too. Whenever people say that they'll apply for five years if they have to because being an academic is the only thing they can see themselves doing, I wonder whether that's a healthy point of view. The idea that if one pursues an academic career it should be their entire life, is so problematic to me. It seems more like self-flagellation than anything else. I honestly think that we should all think very seriously about whether or not academia is the place for us, and while I admire people who apply three or four times to a certain extent, I also know that if I hadn't been successful this app season, I would have moved on with my life. I don't think that shows a lack of dedication, but I just think the idea that one's "dream" is more important than living a viable lifestyle is ridiculous and naive. I mean, it's amazing to live your first dream, but sometimes a secondary dream will have to do.

 

Very well put!

[Bennett]

Have people here taken some time off before applying? I took off one year between my B.A. and my Master's and then (what will be) two years between that and starting a PhD. I think it's helpful to be able to compare one's academic prospects with those on the open market (in my case, stints as a barista, maitre d' and bookstore employee, and some very sporadic editing/translating work). It's worth examining what those other options are, and how appealing; as someone else here pointed out, my "modest" grad school stipend will be more than I've made from any of those jobs.

 

I guess my point is: while things might be looking grim inside the academy, it's not like the picture is rosy anywhere else (aside from a few isolated sectors, like nursing). Transformations in the global economy are pushing productive labor towards the (former) periphery and away from the core, and--as we've now learned--you can't paper over that loss of jobs with lines of credit. I think this is a hard time in *any* sector.

 

There's two ways of looking at that fact. The pessimistic reading is that, generally speaking, we're all f*cked. The optimistic reading is that we have to fight for the world we want to work, and live, and love in. While the current trend in academia is towards more precarious adjunct work and less full-time jobs, diminished funding, hyper-competition and specialization, etc etc, there's nothing about any of that which is inevitable. If we fought for increased state funding, free public education, and revitalization of the humanities, then the picture would look quite different. (And universal free education, while seemingly politically impossible, is economically quite feasible.) This could be connected to a broader struggle vis à vis the social welfare state, workers' rights, and the importance of the "public" in the face of privatization. (Instead of "publish or perish," we'd have "public or perish!") I guess I'm trying to connect this notion of individual "dream jobs" to a more collective dimension; the point here is that we'll really have to fight--collectively--for whichever dream it is we choose.