Two Masters??

[Therewillbeluke]

I know these sort of questions are all over this board, but here goes:

Pretty much since my first year of undergrad I knew I wanted to continue onto graduate study with the ultimate goal of Doctoral work and entering the pleasant citadel of academia. However, over the past year the feeling that I will eventually pursue ordained ministry has been getting stronger and stronger. (This, by the way, partially explains why my list of schools may seem a bit schizophrenic to some).

With my main choices being SLU and PTS right now, (both of which I would love to attend, albeit for different reasons, and am fiscally able to attend) my main question is whether it would be wise to either:

1) Opt for PTS (or another school in which the M.Div is available, such as YDS), do the M.Div, do some discernment, and have the ability to go into ministry or academia relatively open at the end of it.

OR

2) Opt for SLU (or another school that is MA/MTS focused, such as BC or ND), do the MA/MTS, do some discernment, be excellently set up for Doctoral work BUT risk realizing that I should have done the M.Div and have to do another Masters

If anyone has experience with similar internal struggles or pursuing two masters I'd love your input.

Best.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Therewillbeluke

[Neem217]

My advice as someone who is finishing up a MTS - do the MDiv at PTS, YDS, HDS, UChicago, or wherever. 

 

At least at HDS where the MDiv degree is a bit more academic than ministerial/pastoral focused than some other institutions/seminaries (in my opinion) more MDiv's get into the PhD. Sounds weird, but yet, more HDS MDiv's get into Harvard's doctoral program (the ThD and the PhD) than HDS MTS's and thats partially because MDivs have an extra year to get to know faculty, work out their interest, etc. Actually, many students here switch to the MDiv for that reason. I know the MDiv's at YDS do well in doctoral programs as well (and I am sure its the same at other schools). 

 

So, I think if ministry is something you are seriously discerning, do the MDiv and leave the option of academia open. When I look at my faculty's CVs, many of them did MDiv's. Furthermore, if you are going into graduate school straight from undergraduate (I worked/volunteered for 3 years beforehand), the field ed/ministry placements are useful. It will make you a more well-rounded candidate particularly if you lack work/world experience. Some people finish the MDiv and still want to pursue doctoral work, but take some time off, but use the degree to do hospital chaplaincy, campus ministry, work at non-profits, etc. It's a more marketable degree during job searches....

 

And, do you really want to do TWO masters? And then possibly go into doctoral programs? That's a total of 6/7 years of classes alone, not including the 1 year of for comps, and 2+ years of being a teaching assistant/fellow while writing your dissertation. I know people don't talk about this often, but even among those of us who love academia, you do get tired of classes, papers, finals, sections, etc... 

 

I guess the question is also what institution would allow you to fulfill your ordination requirements... 

Edited March 5, 2013 by Neem217

[Therewillbeluke]

Thank you for the advice, very thoughtful.

 

I guess the question is also what institution would allow you to fulfill your ordination requirements... 

 

I'm Episcopalian, so Yale Divinity or the Episcopal seminary at GTU.

[kacei]

I know these sort of questions are all over this board, but here goes:

Pretty much since my first year of undergrad I knew I wanted to continue onto graduate study with the ultimate goal of Doctoral work and entering the pleasant citadel of academia. However, over the past year the feeling that I will eventually pursue ordained ministry has been getting stronger and stronger. (This, by the way, partially explains why my list of schools may seem a bit schizophrenic to some).

With my main choices being SLU and PTS right now, (both of which I would love to attend, albeit for different reasons, and am fiscally able to attend) my main question is whether it would be wise to either:

1) Opt for PTS (or another school in which the M.Div is available, such as YDS), do the M.Div, do some discernment, and have the ability to go into ministry or academia relatively open at the end of it.

 

 

Are you currently discussing this with anyone in your diocese? My Bishop told me he preferred that I attend an Episcopal seminary, so while I wanted to apply to UTS, I had to decline that opportunity. If you go to church where you live, I would try to talk to a priest that you feel comfortable, and ask for their opinion.  

[kacei]

Also, YDS has a spiritual direction program with Berkeley Divinity School, so you can do discernment while you are in graduate school. 

[Neem217]

Yes, I would talk to people. I know there are Episcopalians at HDS who are on the ordination track and I think they are using their coursework here for seminary/ordination requirements -- though it seems that they will have to supplement their education with a certificate program/more courses but I don't think that takes that long...

 

I also have taken at class at Episcopal Divinity School every semester I've been at HDS - and there's a professor there who is an ordained Episcopal priest and he got his MDiv and PhD from Union Theological Seminary. So, you can still get ordained without doing your MDiv at one of the 11 accredited Episcopal seminaries though it may require more work. So, I would ask around -- I certainly do not know the specifics...

 

Best of luck!! I am sure you'll do great during the admissions process. Good luck with the discernment. 

Edited March 5, 2013 by Neem217

[Josh J.]

I agree with the rest, if you feel called to ministry at all, do the MDiv. It will provide rich academic preparation plus provide important and practical experience to help you decide if you heard the call correctly. If you find you we're incorrect, you've really lost nothing.

As far as two masters degrees, isn't that becoming the new norm in the field?

[Therewillbeluke]

Are you currently discussing this with anyone in your diocese? My Bishop told me he preferred that I attend an Episcopal seminary, so while I wanted to apply to UTS, I had to decline that opportunity. If you go to church where you live, I would try to talk to a priest that you feel comfortable, and ask for their opinion.  

 

Yeah, I have discussed it with one of the priests at my parish, but not in the "meet for six months to a year" sense that I know is required. Basically we've discussed it as a possible future pursuit a number of times (even in the context of a different denomination!) so no action was taken. I know the Bishop here LOVES to send people to Suwanee and that if I decide to be ordained and went to PTS I'd need an "Anglican Studies Certificate" most likely.

[Therewillbeluke]

As far as two masters degrees, isn't that becoming the new norm in the field?

 

I mean, I've heard it is for Biblical Studies, I guess it very well could be for other sub-disciplines. 

[Guest]

I have struggled with this exact same issue for years. I KNOW just like you that I want academia, but I cannot quite let go of this inner sense of calling to somehow participate in ordained ministry. At one point I thought it was as simple as MDiv = ordained ministry and MTS/MA = academia, which made the dilemma more difficult.

 

However, as others have suggested, the MDiv can easily be made into an academic degree and is often academically superior to MTS/MA programs.

 

I am at Duke, where the MTS is essentially an MDiv with less core requirements, no ministry component, and with one 30-50 page paper at the end. I opted to switch to the MDiv because I knew that, whether I go into ordained ministry or academia, the MDiv will be better for both options both because it has a ministry component (= experience and discernment) and because it is three years (simply put, 3 years > 2 years in terms of academic preparedness). In the case of Duke, there are just as many free electives in the MDiv as there is in the MTS, so you basically can complete the exact same program you would in an MTS, with an additional year of classes. In addition, you can simply take an independent study or directed study with a teacher and write a 30-50 page paper in a way that would be equivalent to the MTS/MA process. In this way, the MDiv can be preparation in the exact same manner that an MTS/MA would be, and then some!

 

Now you should know that there are some MTS/MA programs that have something like a 100-200 page thesis component, though I can't think of any off-hand. 

 

So, bottom line, I think you are far better off with an MDiv. They are almost always better-funded, and are the most versatile of masters-level theological degrees. You must, as I see you are already doing, discern where you can pursue ordination in your church. Most churches/denominations allow their students to go to a variety of seminaries to fulfill ordination requirements, just make sure you can get experience in your own denomination's setting.

[Therewillbeluke]

I have struggled with this exact same issue for years. I KNOW just like you that I want academia, but I cannot quite let go of this inner sense of calling to somehow participate in ordained ministry. At one point I thought it was as simple as MDiv = ordained ministry and MTS/MA = academia, which made the dilemma more difficult.

 

Mmmm, glad to know there is someone else out there whose dealt with this. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

 

Hows the Anglican/Episcopal House of Studies at Duke? I didn't apply to Duke, but if I do end up getting a M.Div at a later point it is a school of interest.

[Guest]

The AEHS is fantastic! I think the Anglican/Episcopalian community here is quite strong and the atmosphere is quite congenial to those of A/E background. They have a certificate in A/E studies you can earn with plenty of classes to support it. The House holds events all the time including a day-long preaching workshop with Stanley Hauerwas taking place next week. Our outgoing House leader, Jo Bailey Wells (sorry if misspelled), was just appointed as chaplain under the Archbishop of Canterbury. Our new director is David Marshall. It is certainly a good time to be an A/E at Duke!

[Guest]

P.S. I just noticed you are accepted to an MDiv at Chicago. If they are friendly to ordination preparation I think that is a fantastic place to be as well, depending on your theological atmosphere preferences.

[Balatro]

Should you feel called to a non-Episcopalian school do NOT fret. Discuss this with your Bishop (obviously), worst-case scenario is your Bishop will send you to an Episcopalian, Methodist, or Lutheran seminary (whatever is closest to your diocese that has been approved) for a year and do a program known as an Anglican Year. It's a year long and designed to get you prepared for Epis. liturgy and to take your comprehensive exams. That said, just about all of your mainline schools have faculty/staff to work with denominational requirements for students if they're not an official Episcopal school.

 

Fortunately you don't want (presumption) to attend Nashotah so you're saved that nightmare.

 

I went to YDS myself as an Episcopalian but I work with other priests who have attended Harvard and uChicago - both had no hiccups in ordination and were not required to do an A.Y. but that depends on your Bishop really.

 

Personal advice, I'd take the M.Div and if you feel unprepared for a PhD still (unlikely), do a STM.

[indefiniteintegral]

I have struggled with this exact same issue for years. I KNOW just like you that I want academia, but I cannot quite let go of this inner sense of calling to somehow participate in ordained ministry. At one point I thought it was as simple as MDiv = ordained ministry and MTS/MA = academia, which made the dilemma more difficult.

 

However, as others have suggested, the MDiv can easily be made into an academic degree and is often academically superior to MTS/MA programs.

 

I am at Duke, where the MTS is essentially an MDiv with less core requirements, no ministry component, and with one 30-50 page paper at the end. I opted to switch to the MDiv because I knew that, whether I go into ordained ministry or academia, the MDiv will be better for both options both because it has a ministry component (= experience and discernment) and because it is three years (simply put, 3 years > 2 years in terms of academic preparedness). In the case of Duke, there are just as many free electives in the MDiv as there is in the MTS, so you basically can complete the exact same program you would in an MTS, with an additional year of classes. In addition, you can simply take an independent study or directed study with a teacher and write a 30-50 page paper in a way that would be equivalent to the MTS/MA process. In this way, the MDiv can be preparation in the exact same manner that an MTS/MA would be, and then some!

 

Now you should know that there are some MTS/MA programs that have something like a 100-200 page thesis component, though I can't think of any off-hand. 

 

So, bottom line, I think you are far better off with an MDiv. They are almost always better-funded, and are the most versatile of masters-level theological degrees. You must, as I see you are already doing, discern where you can pursue ordination in your church. Most churches/denominations allow their students to go to a variety of seminaries to fulfill ordination requirements, just make sure you can get experience in your own denomination's setting.

Excellent post--and struggled with the same question! Thanks so much!

[cui-bono]

 At one point I thought it was as simple as MDiv = ordained ministry and MTS/MA = academia, which made the dilemma more difficult.

 

However, as others have suggested, the MDiv can easily be made into an academic degree and is often academically superior to MTS/MA programs.

 

I second this. It really depends on where you go and I'd say that most of the places mentioned in this thread have MDiv programs that are more academically oriented. I was fortunate enough to be at an institution where this was the case and had the added benefit of some flexibility in tailoring my course of study such that my MDiv is much more like an MTS/MA -- but with an extra year added on at the end where I could hone my interests, etc.

 

So depending on where you are it can certainly work to your advantage, especially if you are planning on doctoral work at some point in the future.

[Seatbelt Blue]

A man cannot serve two masters 

[Therewillbeluke]

P.S. I just noticed you are accepted to an MDiv at Chicago. If they are friendly to ordination preparation I think that is a fantastic place to be as well, depending on your theological atmosphere preferences.

 

It would be, but it would be very difficult for me to attend with the 50% funding they offered me.

[sacklunch]

Depending on your interests, MANY people have several degrees to be even competitive at top doctoral programs. I would rather have an MTS + another one-two years of purely academic work. Yes, HDS' MDiv is less pastoral focused, but still, it will require more 'fluff' than someone with 3-4 years of purely academic coursework. Not only that, but you are able to leave and get a degree from a different institution, which offers new perspectives, faculty, ect. This is what I have done and am truly happy with the results thus far. Though, my advice is moot if you are considering some sort of ministerial role.

Edited March 5, 2013 by jdmhotness

[kacei]

Yeah, I have discussed it with one of the priests at my parish, but not in the "meet for six months to a year" sense that I know is required. Basically we've discussed it as a possible future pursuit a number of times (even in the context of a different denomination!) so no action was taken. I know the Bishop here LOVES to send people to Suwanee and that if I decide to be ordained and went to PTS I'd need an "Anglican Studies Certificate" most likely.

This doesn't relate to your post about whether to choose MDiv or MTS, but here is some background on schools.

You probably don't want to go to Sewanee right now, they are in extreme financial debt and they are also in the middle of nowhere Tennessee (unless you're not interested in a city area). Actually, most seminaries are in debt, save VTS and YDS/BDS, which are heavily endowed. CDSP (GTU) opened up two new full ride scholarships, and have some funding, but I think you have to be noted as an applicant that is for sure going to be ordained. Those scholarships are full tuition, but also require you to work in California as a parish priest for two years (paid though, so that's nice if you're a baby priest looking for job security). 

GTS has little funding. EDS (HDS) is considered a fringe school in some dioceses for how liberal it is (my bishop knows i'm liberal, and he even helped ordain Bishop Gene, but he wouldn't even send me there). Nashotah house is extremely conservative, also considered to be a fringe school. Trinity in PA is evangelical episcopal, more fringe than the other two.

Other schools are Bexley in Ohio and SSW in Texas.  SSW has high funding, and may fund MDivs completely, from what I hear.

[bondsdw]

If I were you, I'd definitely go for the MDiv.  I'm only a master's student and certainly not an authority on this, but from my experience, it looks like having an MDiv doesn't really hurt your chances at pursing later academic doctoral work.  I'm currently at a state school, and there are several PhD students in my program who have MDiv's.  Furthermore, I've heard that some schools offering jobs now occasionally ask specifically for applicants with an MDiv follow by a PhD.  Like others have said, you might intentionally craft your MDiv to have more academic rigor than perhaps sometime more interested in ministry would.  If you're debating between ministry and academia, I think the MDiv is perfect.  It seems like both options are available to you upon completion.

[indefiniteintegral]

This doesn't relate to your post about whether to choose MDiv or MTS, but here is some background on schools.

You probably don't want to go to Sewanee right now, they are in extreme financial debt and they are also in the middle of nowhere Tennessee (unless you're not interested in a city area). Actually, most seminaries are in debt, save VTS and YDS/BDS, which are heavily endowed. CDSP (GTU) opened up two new full ride scholarships, and have some funding, but I think you have to be noted as an applicant that is for sure going to be ordained. Those scholarships are full tuition, but also require you to work in California as a parish priest for two years (paid though, so that's nice if you're a baby priest looking for job security). 

GTS has little funding. EDS (HDS) is considered a fringe school in some dioceses for how liberal it is (my bishop knows i'm liberal, and he even helped ordain Bishop Gene, but he wouldn't even send me there). Nashotah house is extremely conservative, also considered to be a fringe school. Trinity in PA is evangelical episcopal, more fringe than the other two.

Other schools are Bexley in Ohio and SSW in Texas.  SSW has high funding, and may fund MDivs completely, from what I hear.

Thoughts on DDS?

[kacei]

Thoughts on DDS?

Oh yeah, DDS is moderate from what I hear. My Bishop would have been find had I considered it. 

[Therewillbeluke]

P.S. I just noticed you are accepted to an MDiv at Chicago. If they are friendly to ordination preparation I think that is a fantastic place to be as well, depending on your theological atmosphere preferences.

 

I would love to, but it would be pretty impossible with the funding they offered me.

[Therewillbeluke]

Just out of curiosity, what would you all say in regards to the academics as the various Episcopal seminaries?