cheating

[timuralp]

Ok, so I'll preface this with saying this isn't acceptable, obviously.

I think the general sentiment can be summed up as: "you're ruining the academic community". I don't know if this is as disastrous as that. Obviously, the other students in the class suffer from your actions, but I'm not sure I see how the academic community at large is. So, the argument would obviously go something like this: "well, s/he cheated in a class, then still passes classes, gets a degree, begins publishing, steals others' ideas, and BAM! The field is ruined forever". I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. First of all, if you can find a solution to your research problem online, that's not actually research and no one will accept your work as such. Isn't the whole point of PCs to review papers for proper citations, acknowledging all important, relevant prior work, and making sure the research is original? You're not going to survive in the academic world this way - it will crush you.

So, then let's take a different argument "well, s/he cheated in a class, then still passes classes, gets a degree, and BAM! the reputation of the school is ruined forever and the degree doesn't have value." This may have some validity, but at the same time sometimes you have a class with, say, a 30 average on everything, which gets scaled up to a B- or B, and an A would be a 50. I'm not entirely sure how that grade is valid. Of course, it may speak to the fact that the assignments are too hard, the professor doesn't explain material well, etc, doesn't matter. The point is these students still have to be interviewed and we all know grades alone get you, well, nowhere (as far as I can tell; feel free to disprove it, but I haven't found any places).

Finally, just felt like starting a somewhat provoking conversation about this, and that's the reason for this post

[thepoorstockinger]

I would rather pass the exam of honesty and fail the exam of knowledge.

Not to be a jerk, but you failed both exams in this case. First of all, you plagiarized (bye bye honesty) which is bad enough, but the fact that you didn't realize that it was the wrong answer (bye bye knowledge) makes it more funny than anything else.

[rufzilla]

Honestly, the OP made a really stupid, really elementary mistake that s/he should have known better about. I know that the OP may be an international student where the codes of academic conduct may differ from those of an American university, but plagiarism is plagiarism and anyone in a graduate program should know that they HAVE TO cite their sources whenever referencing an outside source. Obviously the plagiarism of the material was blatant enough that the professor of the class either knew where the material came from or the OP used the material in such an unoriginal fashion that it mirrored the other classmates that are also in trouble for plagiarism and cheating. In any case, the OP is, no matter if he is an international student or not, at fault for his mistake. As a scholar he should know the correct codes of conduct and the basic rules of citing sources.

However, I do believe in second chances and hope that the OP was scared sh*tless after making this mistake and can contribute to the academic world in a manner that is both honest and honorable.

[Nel]

What I would like to know is which country he comes from in which plagiarism (or giving credit, or cheating, or whatever you call it that the OP has done) is not culturally unacceptable, where this sort of thing has not been explicitly communicated to the OP in his undergraduate years?

[thepoorstockinger]

My experience (I sit on the senate discipline committee at my undergrad instituition) is that international students from South Korea and China are often not told anything about plagiarism until they arrive at a North American university. The way it's been explained to me (and this could be totally wrong) is that there is just a different idea of what education is in some education systems: it's just assumed that someone else has already made that argument, so why bother pointing that out. Of course you're not making an original argument! You're an undergrad! Suggesting you can make an original argument is a crazy, narcissistic thing to say!

I have no doubt in my mind that there are cultural differences, and I think first (and probably second) year undergraduate students should be cut a bit of slack on this. But if you applied to a US graduate school, accepted a job as a TA, and spent a semester as a graduate student then I think you really should make the effort to learn what's going on and what's expected of you.

[Jakrabite]

What I would like to know is which country he comes from in which plagiarism (or giving credit, or cheating, or whatever you call it that the OP has done) is not culturally unacceptable, where this sort of thing has not been explicitly communicated to the OP in his undergraduate years?

How would knowing which country OP is from change anything?

[Nel]

How would knowing which country OP is from change anything?

It doesn't. But from the OP's own admission, he has characterize his behavior as culturally acceptable in his undergrad academic environment. We know for certain that plagiarism (or whatever kind of euphemism you may want to use) is explicitly and strongly communicated as a no-no in the U.S. and most other countries I know of even in the first year of undergraduate studies. So it would be interesting to know where such a thing is actually ignored, or as the prior poster says, differing ideas of what education is.

[Jakrabite]

We know for certain that plagiarism (or whatever kind of euphemism you may want to use) is explicitly and strongly communicated as a no-no in the U.S. and most other countries I know of even in the first year of undergraduate studies.

Let's assume the OP is from Senegal ( no offense meant to my Senegalese friends ). Don't see how that would be interesting. Condescending yes, Interesting no. "U.S. and most other countries I know of"...Not a very illuminating frame of reference.

That the OP achieved an epic fail is doubtless, considering the name of the the topic. However, this degeneration of the discussion to finger pointing towards education systems of different nations is unnecessary at best, bigoted at worst.

[Nel]

Let's assume the OP is from Senegal ( no offense meant to my Senegalese friends ). Don't see how that would be interesting. Condescending yes, Interesting no. "U.S. and most other countries I know of"...Not a very illuminating frame of reference.

That the OP achieved an epic fail is doubtless, considering the name of the the topic. However, this degeneration of the discussion to finger pointing towards education systems of different nations is unnecessary at best, bigoted at worst.

"Don't see how that would be interesting": It would be interesting if we can gain the perspective of what the "differing ideas of what education" are.

"Not a very illuminating frame of reference.": I didn't think I needed to list every country I know.

"Condescending yes, Interesting no.": FYI, I'm not from the U.S. I'm also a international grad. And..... what's that you said about finger-pointing?

"this degeneration of the discussion to finger pointing towards education systems of different nations is unnecessary at best, bigoted at worst.":

Firstly, the above characterization is putting words into my mouth. Secondly, talking about words from the horses' mouth, I suggest a reading of "Don't think of an elephant!" by George Lakoff where he explains how frames reinforce ideas and what facts and language will come through a person's respective filters or frames.

[Jakrabite]

"Don't see how that would be interesting": It would be interesting if we can gain the perspective of what the "differing ideas of what education" are.

If you are waiting for people to come up with nuggets like "I'm from XYZ and my education system encourages plagiarism", Good luck with that discussion.

"Not a very illuminating frame of reference.": I didn't think I needed to list every country I know.

Haha. Exactly. Neither is it necessary to discuss the perceived honesty of every country.

"Condescending yes, Interesting no.": FYI, I'm not from the U.S. I'm also a international grad. And..... what's that you said about finger-pointing?

I would've never guessed! Maybe another topic can be started on, "differing ideas of what finger pointing" is.

Firstly, the above characterization is putting words into my mouth.

Have to admit that is most definitely true . It's a prerequisite for a pointless flame war.

Secondly, talking about words from the horses' mouth, I suggest a reading of "Don't think of an elephant!" by George Lakoff where he explains how frames reinforce ideas and what facts and language will come through a person's respective filters or frames.

Pretentious, much? Also, I have an impolite suggestion as to where you can put your copy of "Don't think of an elephant!" by George Lakoff.

[MaximKat]

Would anyone share his/her ideas of what is allowed and what is not?

Is it OK to use the textbook to find background info on the task? To see how similar problems are solved? Does the answer change when you replace "the textbook" by "the Internet"?

[Nel]

If you are waiting for people to come up with nuggets like "I'm from XYZ and my education system encourages plagiarism", Good luck with that discussion.

Red Herring: perspective of what the "differing ideas of what education" are =/= nuggets like "I'm from XYZ and my education system encourages plagiarism"

Haha. Exactly. Neither is it necessary to discuss the perceived honesty of every country.

1. Non Sequitur: The lack of pragmatic need to "list every country I know" has no connection to rationalizing "discuss the perceived honesty of every country."

2. E.g. 2 of "Don't think of an elephant!": I never did and still do not want to "discuss the perceived honesty of every country", my perspective was from the beginning cultural and ideological difference.

I would've never guessed! Maybe another topic can be started on, "differing ideas of what finger pointing" is.

Another Red Herring: what's that you said about finger-pointing? =/= Maybe another topic can be started on, "differing ideas of what finger pointing" is.

Have to admit that is most definitely true . It's a prerequisite for a pointless flame war.

Thank you, I do enjoy a war-of-words sometimes....but ((singing Billy Joel's "We didn't start the fire"))

Pretentious, much? Also, I have an impolite suggestion as to where you can put your copy of "Don't think of an elephant!" by George Lakoff.

Outright Ad Hominem attack

[Jakrabite]

Red Herring: perspective of what the "differing ideas of what education" are =/= nuggets like "I'm from XYZ and my education system encourages plagiarism"

Well to quote your original question..."We know for certain that plagiarism (or whatever kind of euphemism you may want to use) is explicitly and strongly communicated as a no-no in the U.S. and most other countries I know of"

Hence it would appear you want to know about education systems riddled with as you put it "plagiarism (or whatever kind of euphemism you may want to use)" which is sadly = "I'm from XYZ and my education system encourages plagiarism"

The finger pointing comment was a joke. Explaining humor is a terrible bore (only marginally less boring than quoting George Lakoff in fact).

Outright Ad Hominem attack: To be frank, I did find the whole "Don't think of an elephant!" angle irrelevant and still do. No matter how many times you try to work the title into sentences. "E.g. 2 of "Don't think of an elephant!", it doesn't fly.

My contribution to this topic ends here. I'll let you have the last word (I just hope Mr.(Dr.?) Lakoff and your predilection for herrings don't make an appearance).

[Nel]

Prof. George P. Lakoff is professor of cognitive linguistics at Berkeley.

Unfortunately, you would need to have read the book and have some basic understanding of how language is used cognitively to understand my comments, perhaps then you wouldn't have presupposed I needed to work in a title.

Speaking about joking, I saw this really funny clip on Youtube, you might want to have a look

[Leahlearns]

Maybe the OP has already dealt with the problem, but if you haven't is there a Dean of International Students who you could talk to?

[liszt85]

Prof. George P. Lakoff is professor of cognitive linguistics at Berkeley.

Unfortunately, you would need to have read the book and have some basic understanding of how language is used cognitively to understand my comments, perhaps then you wouldn't have presupposed I needed to work in a title.

Speaking about joking, I saw this really funny clip on Youtube, you might want to have a look

Nel, some of us do know who Prof Lakoff is. I have read his papers even though I'm a Physics major. I'm however not going to ask you to go read books and papers by H. Dieter Zeh or Eric Joos or Zurek for you to be able to fathom what I write in my posts here

(since I could almost as easily argue that you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about because you would need to know quantum mechanics to understand how the world works. You probably think quantum mechanics applies only in the microscopic world and would neglect the possibility that what I write here could have stemmed out of a collapse of a wavefunction of a superposition of different states that could have been possible, but that you would be right in the end because decoherence takes care and explains why you don't observe Lakoff's book to be in a superposition of two position states but only at a single position)

Though that may not have made a lot of sense to you, it should at least tell you that you do not need to point to scholarly works to be able to communicate using language. Linguistics (and cognitive linguistics) is a branch of science (yes I believe its as much as science as Physics) that studies language and not the other way around.

Also tell me this. Have you heard of two positives coming together to form a negative? It goes something like this: "Yea, right!"

So lets say person A tells me that the moon is bigger than the earth and I respond "Yea, right!". What kind of fallacy would that be?

I'm indeed surprised that you talk of cognitive linguistics and logical fallacies in the same breath! There is a logical fallacy right here! Can you see it?

[MaximKat]

hey, guys, would you kindly stop discussing linguistics and logic and return to original topic?

[StudyMom]

If you cheat and get caught at my university the prof. immediately checks with a university department that keeps records of all cheating. If it is the first time the prof. or department makes the decision for consequences,certainly an F for the course which can significantly affect your overall course grade and cum. If you have cheated before and get caught again it goes to tribunal and you can get kicked out. One person, we've been told, even cheated on their qualifying exams for PhD -- they were kicked out. No excuses, just out. They have also now instituted a rule where if they find you plagerised after you get your degree, they can remove your degree!

Good luck. It sounds like you'll probably just get a grade reduction.

[Nel]

Nel, some of us do know who Prof Lakoff is. I have read his papers even though I'm a Physics major.

Of course you do, I didn't say you didn't. If you trace my comments, I was responding to Jakrabite.

I'm however not going to ask you to go read books and papers by H. Dieter Zeh or Eric Joos or Zurek for you to be able to fathom what I write in my posts here.

Again, I didn't ask anyone to go read up a whole book FOR them to "fathom what I write in my posts". I did paraphrase my point being "how frames reinforce ideas and what facts and language will come through a person's respective filters or frames."

it should at least tell you that you do not need to point to scholarly works to be able to communicate using language. Linguistics (and cognitive linguistics) is a branch of science (yes I believe its as much as science as Physics) that studies language and not the other way around.

I was making a point by citing scholarly work, the way we have to cite sources and give credit to findings in academic articles, I did not use it exclusively to communicate. And yes, linguistics is a science, I agree.

Also tell me this. Have you heard of two positives coming together to form a negative? It goes something like this: "Yea, right!"

So lets say person A tells me that the moon is bigger than the earth and I respond "Yea, right!". What kind of fallacy would that be?

It's not a fallacy, it's taking mathematical logic, instead of argumentative logic, to incorrectly position linguistic phrases. "Yea, right!" in this context is unproblematic, but would need to be employed with a clear and specific prosodic contour. It is this prosodic feature layered upon the semantic of the words that somehow reverse the polarity of a positive semantical meaning into a negative pragmatic meaning. It's called cynicism.

I'm indeed surprised that you talk of cognitive linguistics and logical fallacies in the same breath! There is a logical fallacy right here! Can you see it?

No I don't see it. You would have to qualify what you mean by "in the same breath". I was saying that Jakrabite's statement committed a logical fallacy, and the same statement also works to reveal his frame of mind at the same time. I don't see how that is a logical fallacy or a contradiction.

[Jakrabite]

I had walked away from this discussion. But I guess Nel's comments necessitated a return. Nel please do understand, parroting George Lakoff is easy, expressing your own thoughts is harder. For example, in reply to your strong yearning to know the nationality of the OP, I could ask you to read Identity and Violence by Amartya Sen. Dr. Sen's book says trying to explain a person's behaviour on a singular affiliation characteristic is unnecessary and unproductive. In your case the single characteristic of identity is the education system of the OP. But an argument using this approach is essentially bogus.

Most importantly, I am not going to read a book on the basis of a recommendation by a discussion board nutjob (and hope you show similar restraint with my recommendation). I appreciate your enthusiasm for linguistics, but please try and avoid being irrelevant. I am a computer science major, but when somebody asks How I've been doing... I don't write an algorithm. Happy ranting!

[Nel]

Nel please do understand, parroting George Lakoff is easy, expressing your own thoughts is harder. For example, in reply to your strong yearning to know the nationality of the OP, I could ask you to read Identity and Violence by Amartya Sen. Dr. Sen's book says trying to explain a person's behaviour on a singular affiliation characteristic is unnecessary and unproductive. In your case the single characteristic of identity is the education system of the OP.

I repeat:

I never did and still do not want to "discuss the perceived honesty of every country", my perspective was from the beginning cultural and ideological difference.

Nel please do understand, parroting George Lakoff is easy, expressing your own thoughts is harder......But an argument using this approach is essentially bogus.

I repeat:

I was making a point by citing scholarly work, the way we have to cite sources and give credit to findings in academic articles, I did not use it exclusively to communicate.

I don't see how putting forward a point by giving supportive literature is bogus.

Most importantly, I am not going to read a book on the basis of a recommendation by a discussion board nutjob (and hope you show similar restraint with my recommendation).

I repeat:

I didn't ask anyone to go read up a whole book FOR them to "fathom what I write in my posts". I did paraphrase my point being "how frames reinforce ideas and what facts and language will come through a person's respective filters or frames."

Don't worry, you paraphrased the gist of the book for me, I'm not going to read the book based on the "recommendation by a discussion board nutjob".

I appreciate your enthusiasm for linguistics, but please try and avoid being irrelevant. I am a computer science major, but when somebody asks How I've been doing... I don't write an algorithm.

You asked "How would knowing which country OP is from change anything?"

I replied "It doesn't....it would be interesting to know where such a thing is actually ignored, or as the prior poster says, differing ideas of what education is."

You criticized "this degeneration of the discussion to finger pointing towards education systems of different nations is unnecessary at best, bigoted at worst."

I countered "the above characterization is putting words into my mouth."

You withdrew your comment "Have to admit that is most definitely true . It's a prerequisite for a pointless flame war."

I appreciated your honesty "Thank you, I do enjoy a war-of-words sometimes....but ((singing Billy Joel's "We didn't start the fire"))"

You said you didn't understand. "I did find the whole "Don't think of an elephant!" angle irrelevant and still do."

I said I understood your difficulty "Unfortunately, you would need to have read the book and have some basic understanding of how language is used cognitively to understand my comments"

I didn't write the algorithm and not understanding someone does not make his comments irrelevant.

[goose2009]

Oh for crying out loud, will you guys just let it go already? This back and fourth arguing is something that you can take to PM's if you really want to go at it. People reading this forum have already asked you to stop and your persistence is only making you sound childish.

[waitingtoexhale]

Well let me clear up the air a bit. I am an international student and this is my first year at US university. This sort of copying/collaboration is considered a common practice from the part of world where I come. Not that I meant it is the reason we passed all those exams/TOEFL/GRE that way. But there is little such honor policy. Usually we as students try to get ideas from others, if and when we do come at stages when we are unable to originate the concepts ourselves and apply that in our own styles. And coming to university level, we know that we can at no place escape by direct copycat, at least we must be able to use our brains even to modify the things that we have taken ideas.

So my mistake although a few recurring times, I must admit that, I am not free to use ideas and works that are not mine as my work, which in this case what happened to me. I studied online resources, in which I happen to find the solution, understood how it worked and then implemented it. My part of fault was that I was not right to take ideas from others, but also I should have cited my reference, so that I provide the due credit to the original composer.

Honestly and unfortunately, the OP is trying to make all international students look bad. I don't think there's anything else to call what s/he did but cheating. This case is not about forgetting to reference or cite a source properly. Rather, the student found some kind of instructor's manual online and straight up copied the answer for the assignment. And the OP writes about knowing full well that to be a 'direct copycat' is wrong at the university level. This isn't an issue of understanding cultural differences across nations or the challenges facing international students studying abroad. The reason OP is in such a predicament has little to do with being an international or domestic student, but because s/he is an unethical student who was caught cheating in a grossly blatant manner. While cultural differences and adjusting to studying stateside are valid and nuanced issues worthy of discussion (at least Nel and Jakrabite seem to be passionate about it), that's not what happened to the OP. What happened to the OP is that s/he got busted for cheating.

[rufzilla]

I will definitely have to second goose's request!

Although I have found this back-and-forth bickering somewhat amusing, both of you have forgotten the purpose behind this topic and have taken each other's opinions and statements to personally.

Nel: I can understand your desire to know where the OP is from, if only to get a better sense of where he is coming from and even help out his case. I don't think it's wrong of you to ask or delve deeper into the topic.

Jakrabite: I can also understand why you would think knowing where the OP is from is irrelevant, if only to save him and other international students from being finger-pointed at for being "less academically ethical" than the US.

You both have good points that could have led to an interesting argument about the different codes of academic conduct. INSTEAD, you both turned this into a war of words centered around your own egos and proving the other wrong. GET BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND AND GET OVER YOURSELVES, PLEASE. I understand and appreciate the need to clarify one's self, but this is going over board. You guys are irritating the other posters that only want to talk about the original topic. I agree with goose: if you guys absolutely must continue this trivial battle of the egos then do so in PMs.

[Nel]

Point well-noted and agreed upon (I guess I'm just not used to being abusively maligned).

In response to waitingtoexhale: You've just hit the nail on the head. When I asked "So it would be interesting to know where such a thing is actually ignored, or as the prior poster says, differing ideas of what education is", and that "We know for certain that plagiarism (or whatever kind of euphemism you may want to use) is explicitly and strongly communicated as a no-no in the U.S. and most other countries I know of even in the first year of undergraduate studies", I guess I was unhappy in the OP's characterization of a personal failure to be the result of his/her country's cultural norm in an academic setting, or in the OP's words "a common practice".

Being an international student myself (and from one of the places thepoorstockinger mentioned in his post), I find it hard to believe that what the OP has committed can be attributed to common practice or because there is "little such honor policy" in any country's academic setting.

However, I am fully open to hear what these "different idea of what education is in some education systems" is, because as thepoorstockinger puts it, this is possible. But to say I am "finger pointing towards education systems of different nations", "discuss the perceived honesty of every country" or that I am doing singular characterization of different nation's education system, are accusations I am unable to accept.

That, I hope, puts a clear perspective on my original question that was taken to be something else.