BU vs Cal vs UCSB for Geography/ES PhD

[Wangathan]

Hey all! I've been really agonizing over this decision and would love some feedback...

 

I would be pursuing basically the same research in all these places - remote sensing and terrestrial ecology (which ended up in differently named departments everywhere, I know it's confusing...).

 

I was first really excited about Boston University, but going to Berkeley and Santa Barbara for the recruitment events have made some really compelling cases that I want to consider before pulling the trigger... I'm most concerned about prestige, rigor, and departmental community atmosphere, and a little concerned about the funding. I'm not 100% certain where I want to be after a PhD (leaning academia), so a place with a variety of outcomes would be appealing to me.

 

Here are some thoughts of mine:

BU (Earth & Environment): Friendliest/most supportive professor (perhaps less well-known in the field?), most generous funding (5 years fellowship), didn't get a clear picture of the grad student/department community (no recruitment event), greatest number of professors in department with similar research, I don't have to move

 

UCBerkeley (Environmental Science/Policy/Management): Decent funding (4 years), large department and beautiful campus, plentiful resources and networking opportunities, prestige, super busy professor with little time to spare

 

UCSB (Geography): Incredibly friendly and supportive community of professors and grad students, high level of rigor and expertise in the field, prestige in the field, low level of funding (2 years), busy professor with little time to spare

 

I would super appreciate any feedback on these places! Thanks! 

Edited April 5, 2013 by Wangathan

[Dark-Helmed]

Have you had a chance to look at the placement records from each program? If you don't know where you want to end up afterwards, it might be profitable to see which of the programs produces graduates who have the most flexible employment paths.

[wanderingalbatross]

My kneejerk reaction when I see Geography at UCSB is sort of like the kneejerk reaction when people see Harvard Law. They are such an awesome program with a very exciting "look-at-all-this-fun-cutting-edge-research-we're-doing" atmosphere, in a beautiful location, and a very safe bet if you're leaning towards academia. You see a lot of professors come out of there, which usually means good student support. Even if it seems the professor is busy and doesn't have time for you, they are not going to let you flounder or struggle, because it's bad for their image. I will also add that a busy adviser is not necessarily a neglectful one. It may just mean they are productive, energetic, and probably well known with great connections...

One small caveat about Santa Barbara -- you will probably have to have roommates as the city's not a cheap place to live.

Edited April 5, 2013 by wanderingalbatross

[compiler_guy]

Regarding funding, if you make satisfactory progress you will probably get funding, no matter the number of years of "guaranteed" funding that you got.

Also if you don't make satisfactory progress with your multi-year guaranteed funding, you could be cutoff, e.g. the department could force you to do a lot of TA's..

So counting the number of years of funding is not that good of an indicator.

What are the living costs in the areas around those universities? How does the funding cover those costs?

Edited April 6, 2013 by compiler_guy

[nesw4314]

Go to UC Berkeley. It's most prestigious. The resources are amazing. The ESPM department is very strong. While UCSB is amazing, funding does matter and don't listen to these people who tell you not to consider the fact that you only got 2 years of funding from a school. Basically, they don't care about you any more than they do a student in a Master's program (2 years typically). If you were guaranteed 2 years of funding then that's just what it means.....2 years of funding, and anything after that will potentially be on your own dime/loans. Why put yourself in a position where you will have to stress? It'd be one thing if this were a school nationally known for most of it's departments (like Berkeley) but it's not.....though it's still well known for geography. 

 

Prestige matters very much, especially if you are considering industry. You aren't sure that you will go into industry, but it's a possibility. If you know 100% for sure you'd like to go into academia then consider UCSB, but Berkeley's prestige is unprecedented to both BU and UCSB. Be very cautious of people who tell you not to consider prestige. They are like 1) people who couldn't get into prestigious programs and/or 2) people who weren't happy with their funding at these prestigious schools, and so they don't want others to attend these schools either. 

 

Think about how the following statements would sound to the general public:

 

1. I have a PhD from BU 

2. I have a PhD from UC Berkeley

3. I have a PhD from UCSB

 

Don't make a mistake. The rankings of a program can fall at any moment, but Berkeley will always be Berkeley and most of it's programs will always be at the top.

Edited April 6, 2013 by nesw4314

[nesw4314]

Regarding funding, if you make satisfactory progress you will get funding, no matted the number of years of "guaranteed" funding that you got. So counting the number of years of funding is not that good of an indicator.

You don't know this for a fact. If you make satisfactory progress you will be qualified to continue getting the funding that they have guaranteed you. 

[paridiso]

Ignore funding for a minute and decide on which school you'd pick if funding wasn't an issue.  Then call that professor up and tell him you'd love to work with him but you have some concerns about funding and these other schools are offering you higher amounts of money.  I was able to pretty easily get my top choice to match the offer from my secondary choice just by asking nicely.

[nesw4314]

Consider also that you can have a faculty member from UCSB be on your committee as an external member -- you get the best of both worlds. This may be a bit awkward asking your POI at UCSB to serve on your committee externally while you're a student at a school that you chose over UCSB, but just explain that the only factor is the funding. This should be reasonable because 1) he should very well understand that funding is very important and 2) this may even cause him to consider you for additional funding if he hears that you gained admission to Berkeley. Then, and only then, would I say consider UCSB, and only if they are offering you funding at a level that is at least equal to what Berkeley is offering. See what happens. Please understand, though, that oftentimes funding offers are not completely up to POI's. If a POI wants you and has the money he/she wouldn't try cheating you out of funding, so this tells me the person at UCSB doesn't have funding for you to exceed 2 years which means he would have to convince the department to give you more money. They have no reason to do so as you wouldn't be the student of anyone else on the admissions committee. Why help you over their own students they've just admitted?

 

I know it is possible for you to have external faculty members because I am also an incoming PhD student to Berkeley's ESPM program, and I remember being told this.

Edited April 6, 2013 by nesw4314

[Wangathan]

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback. Some definite food for thought. BU had been my gut choice for a long time but I'm glad that I'm thinking more about the other options. I'm wondering about the comment about prestige, since I'm not sure it matters how much a school's reputation matters so much as that of the department. I know when it comes to Geography, it doesn't get much more well-known than UCSB, but I thought Boston University was also fairly well-known, especially with respect to physical geography and remote sensing.

 

The placement of the various labs tends to look pretty similar - everyone seems employed, some as academia, some in industry, many in government, in varying amounts that seem roughly proportional to how old the lab is. 

 

I think all the POIs know where I've been accepted, just through several casual conversations, but not anything about funding at other places. It seems like going to Berkeley or Santa Barbara would require obtaining significant external funding at some point, whereas that might not be the case at BU. 

[Visiting]

Hi Wangathan,

I've been at BU for four years as a dual-degree student in EE, so I may be able to provide you with a perspective that is a bit different.  Random points: As you know, remote sensing is the major strength of the department.  It really started with Alan when he came here a few decades ago, and with his student Curtis joining him, they've laid the foundations for a fairly strong department.  GIS is really done by one professor in the department, who everyone goes to for GIS-related work, so I'd be a bit hesitant if that was your primary interest here.  We have a lot of collaboration.  One of the things I've liked about this department was the extent of collaboration between what were three separate departments (Geography, Earth Sciences, and CEES (center for energy and env. studies, which wasn't a "department" per se), as well as with the biology department.

 

You can't really go wrong with either UCSB or BU (don't know much about Berkeley's, but I'm sure it's good), since, at least at BU, everybody knows everybody else at UCSB; I can think of at least 4 tenured professors who came from UCSB.  

 

I have interacted with a large number of the faculty (not much the policy folks) to different extents, so if you have any specific questions about a particular professor (how they're really like, their availability, etc.), feel free to PM me or something.  

[JungWild&Free]

I have interacted with a large number of the faculty (not much the policy folks) to different extents, so if you have any specific questions about a particular professor (how they're really like, their availability, etc.), feel free to PM me or something.  

 

I would PM this helpful person in a heartbeat if I were you.  People in your field will be the most helpful.  Prestige of the department does matter more than overall prestige of the school, because the prestige of the school often comes from the undergrad reputation.  However, a lot of prestigious schools also have prestigious departments and people outside of your field often don't know what the best departments are.  It sounds like you have 3 great options if you don't consider funding.  Obviously, 5 years of funding sounds better than 4, but I interviewed at schools with 4 years of guaranteed funding who said that they have never seen anyone denied for a 5th year, so I would check with the department about that possibility.  Also, I know UCSB is pretty incredible at getting NSF funding, so maybe they are only giving you 2 years because it is standard for students to get externally funded?  Either way, I would talk to all of these schools about the funding possibilities if that is keeping you from considering them all fully.  I'm not sure why someone voted Paradiso's comment down, it is totally an accepted practice to tell schools you have more money elsewhere to see if they will give you more funding (in a nice, respectful way obviously).  Cost of living is probably going to be pretty much the same in all 3 of those places (I live in Boston also, was recently at UCSB for an interview and have friends that live in the bay area...all seem to be fairly comparable based on COL). 

[June_cosmo]

I'm applying to UCSB geography this year. Just wondering, have you been interviewed during application?