Unfunded PhD?

[robhat]

Hi! I'm an international student who is starting with his PhD this fall. I'm really worried because I was initially told (not promised and nothing on paper) that all students get TA's initially and then get RA's beginning second year. Now I'm told that because of the cut in the federal funding, I won't be getting funded my first year and come second year, the professor I decide to work with 'might' fund me. This is really bothering me.

I'm a graduate from an Ivy League school with a Masters degree, I had a pretty decent job with my employer willing to sponsor my work visa before I decided to let it all go and just go for the opportunity to be back in school again. I'm helpless now since I have given up the privilege to work so I can only 'study' if I want to be in US. And with my specialized research, opportunities back home are next to none.  I have to cough up the money for which I was not prepared for, gather loans and shit to attend this school. I feel PhD is more of a curse rather than a new chapter and it hasn't even started yet. 
Probably not the best of mindsets to have when entering a PhD, but all this pandemonium is getting to me.  

Without digressing further, what I wanted to know was - "Are unfunded PhD's common?"; "Can I expect to be funded soon?";
"Is it worth it?", etc.

Best
RSB

[fuzzylogician]

"Are unfunded PhD's common?" No. As far as I know, most PhDs are funded, while there is substantially less funding for MA students. The thought is that an MA prepares you for a professional career where you will earn enough to cover your education, while a PhD is more of an academic training (not debating the logic of this thought nor the practicality of it). 

 

"Can I expect to be funded soon?" That's impossible for us to know. It depends on things outside of our knowledge, like how much of the funding came from sources that were cut, how likely it is that some funding will be restored or that the university will find other sources to fund its students, and -- more importantly -- what the priorities of the department are. For example, will new funding go to incoming students or current ones? Will it even go to students (I'm sure other things were cut too)? Is there a preference for domestic students over international ones? Is funding contingent upon certain grades or service? How much you depend on your advisor and how they allocate their funding will probably matter a lot. 

 

"Is it worth it?" That's a very personal question. Personally, I was determined not to go to grad school unless my expenses were covered because I didn't think it'd be worth paying my own way. I still wouldn't advise anyone to go into debt for a PhD in linguistics. However, your situation is different because the terms were changed on you very late in the game. You could try and pursue official venues at your new university to try and get better support from your department, but at the end of the day they don't have the money and they don't seem to want to make you any promises (besides, we also know that they don't feel too bad about going back on promises they've already made, too). Based on the current state of national funding agencies, I'm guessing that it's risky to trust that you'll be funded in your second year and beyond; I'd decide now based on the assumption that if you go, you'll have to fund your own way. Only you can know if it's worth it for you, for the opportunity to gain skills that you need and a foothold in a new job market that you want to enter. However, before deciding anything, I think you should try contacting your employer and see if you can go back to work for a year (or two). Maybe it's possible, and if so, I'd advise you to re-apply and try again! This school sounds too risky for my taste. 

[robhat]

Thanks for the advice! I cannot even work, which is the worst part. I would have chosen that option if I could. I have gone back to the F1 status and I can only work on an H1B (Filing cycle: next April; Hopeful completion: October), so I cannot work until October 2014 come what may. This kind of sucks! I was told about the non funding part five days before only.

[jeffster]

Definitely make your plan on the worse case - that is, no funding will be pending.  Clear the table and ask yourself, if you had to pay for all of your time in this program, would it be worth it?  I would even suggest you clear the table of whether it's "normal" or not, since once you have that PhD on your CV your level of funding won't really matter.

 

In fact, in order to get the emotion out of it, pretend they never offered you any money at all.  Pretend you never had a work visa that you've since given up.  Instead just pretend you wanted to come to the US for school, you could get a student visa, and this program admitted you on the basis that you pay for it all.  What would your decision be then?

 

If your decision would be to come, then all the other stuff shouldn't really change that.

[ANDS!]

I'm not sure how "uncommon" it is: I got an offer as did more than a few others in my incoming class.  I would say individually it might be uncommon (in terms of unfunded to funded), but whether or not one gets one I'd say it's not so difficult to find a person who has been offered.  

 

As to whether it is worth it - no way.  Going into debt for a masters isn't too difficult to swallow since you're getting in and getting out fairly quickly.  PhD.  Yikes.

[TakeruK]

I would echo fuzzy's post and opinions.

 

In fact, in order to get the emotion out of it, pretend they never offered you any money at all.  Pretend you never had a work visa that you've since given up.  Instead just pretend you wanted to come to the US for school, you could get a student visa, and this program admitted you on the basis that you pay for it all.  What would your decision be then?

 

If your decision would be to come, then all the other stuff shouldn't really change that.

 

I'm not certain if this is a healthy way to approach the problem. Maybe I don't understand because I have never been in a position where I felt like I needed to come to the US. But I feel that if international students/applicants adopt the attitude that they are willing to accept a lower status level (i.e. no tuition waiver, no stipend, no benefits) than domestic student just so they can be in the US, this can cause problems. International students are doing the same work, so they should be treated at the same level.

 

Thus, I think it is important to compare your offer to others -- would you accept an unpaid job position knowing that your colleagues doing the exact same work are getting paid instead? I don't mean compare it down to the dollars and cents level -- some departments pay students slightly differently and holding fellowships can adjust your pay level. However, there is a huge difference between no pay (or rather, negative pay since you have to pay tuition/fees) versus the standard grad student stipend.

[jeffster]

I would echo fuzzy's post and opinions.

 

 

I'm not certain if this is a healthy way to approach the problem. Maybe I don't understand because I have never been in a position where I felt like I needed to come to the US. But I feel that if international students/applicants adopt the attitude that they are willing to accept a lower status level (i.e. no tuition waiver, no stipend, no benefits) than domestic student just so they can be in the US, this can cause problems. International students are doing the same work, so they should be treated at the same level.

 

Thus, I think it is important to compare your offer to others -- would you accept an unpaid job position knowing that your colleagues doing the exact same work are getting paid instead? I don't mean compare it down to the dollars and cents level -- some departments pay students slightly differently and holding fellowships can adjust your pay level. However, there is a huge difference between no pay (or rather, negative pay since you have to pay tuition/fees) versus the standard grad student stipend.

 

I see what you're saying, but what I meant was to eliminate the extra stuff and consider only the options that are before you.  Maybe what the school did is wrong, maybe it's not fair, etc.  But none of that really matters to the decision.  Eliminate the clutter and look at only the options that are on the table before you (go to US PhD program unfunded, or don't), not the options that are gone (US job, funded PhD), and not the options that are uncertain (potential funding).

 

Even in the analogy you give, about accepting an unpaid job knowing your colleagues are doing the same work for pay, I think this holds true.  You're not in a race with your colleagues, there's no finsih line and no winner.  If in the end the benefits of that job outweigh the costs, you should take that job regardless of what your colleagues do.

 

As a thought experiment, try chaning the order of information discovery.  You're offered an unpaid position doing exactly what you want to do, gaining great experience you can leverage later.  You weigh the pros and cons, and decide the benefits more than justify the expense of living off your savings for a bit.  Once you arrive there, you discover another colleague of yours doing the same thing but for pay.  Should this retroactively change your first decision?  You might be justifably upset at the unequal treatment, but I really don't think it changes any part of your initial calculus that led you to take the job in the first place.

 

At least, that's the way I would look at it.

[TakeruK]

I see what you're saying, but what I meant was to eliminate the extra stuff and consider only the options that are before you.  Maybe what the school did is wrong, maybe it's not fair, etc.  But none of that really matters to the decision.  Eliminate the clutter and look at only the options that are on the table before you (go to US PhD program unfunded, or don't), not the options that are gone (US job, funded PhD), and not the options that are uncertain (potential funding).

Even in the analogy you give, about accepting an unpaid job knowing your colleagues are doing the same work for pay, I think this holds true.  You're not in a race with your colleagues, there's no finsih line and no winner.  If in the end the benefits of that job outweigh the costs, you should take that job regardless of what your colleagues do.

 

As a thought experiment, try chaning the order of information discovery.  You're offered an unpaid position doing exactly what you want to do, gaining great experience you can leverage later.  You weigh the pros and cons, and decide the benefits more than justify the expense of living off your savings for a bit.  Once you arrive there, you discover another colleague of yours doing the same thing but for pay.  Should this retroactively change your first decision?  You might be justifably upset at the unequal treatment, but I really don't think it changes any part of your initial calculus that led you to take the job in the first place.

 

At least, that's the way I would look at it.

 

I agree that it is not useful to consider options that are no longer available or not certain in the future. It makes sense to only consider what is on the table. I also agree that you are not in a race with your colleagues and it's important to do what's best for you instead of what makes you comparatively better than your peers.

 

In your thought experiment, it is true that later finding out that the same work doesn't negate the original benefits of taking the unpaid position in the first place. I would still get whatever I wanted out of the position. But, in my opinion, it does change the overall situation. In your thought experiment, it might probably be too late to change the decision anyways. But if the new information was available prior to making the decision, I would think it would make sense to consider this new information when weighing the pros and cons of the job. It does not affect the pros, but I do think not being paid in a situation where you should be paid is definitely a "con". To me, this would be an expression that the employer somehow undervalues my work and this would lead me to believe that either the employer is actively trying to take advantage of me, or does not have the resources to support me as much as the colleagues.

 

Also, as mentioned briefly in my last post, schools can take unfair advantage of students in situations where it still benefits them to do an unfunded PhD (where the norm is a funded PhD). It is basically exploiting the needs of these students. If students in this situation allow themselves to be exploited, then they might personally benefit but it could also make things worse for everyone else! 

 

I'm not saying that people should always be noble and act in the greater good. But I think it's also bad if everyone acted for personal good only. I think there should be some balance between the two and in order to find a balance, it's important to consider things like how much other people are getting paid for the same work, which is necessary to determine if you are being treated fairly.

[jeffster]

I agree that it is not useful to consider options that are no longer available or not certain in the future. It makes sense to only consider what is on the table. I also agree that you are not in a race with your colleagues and it's important to do what's best for you instead of what makes you comparatively better than your peers.

 

In your thought experiment, it is true that later finding out that the same work doesn't negate the original benefits of taking the unpaid position in the first place. I would still get whatever I wanted out of the position. But, in my opinion, it does change the overall situation. In your thought experiment, it might probably be too late to change the decision anyways. But if the new information was available prior to making the decision, I would think it would make sense to consider this new information when weighing the pros and cons of the job. It does not affect the pros, but I do think not being paid in a situation where you should be paid is definitely a "con". To me, this would be an expression that the employer somehow undervalues my work and this would lead me to believe that either the employer is actively trying to take advantage of me, or does not have the resources to support me as much as the colleagues.

 

Also, as mentioned briefly in my last post, schools can take unfair advantage of students in situations where it still benefits them to do an unfunded PhD (where the norm is a funded PhD). It is basically exploiting the needs of these students. If students in this situation allow themselves to be exploited, then they might personally benefit but it could also make things worse for everyone else! 

 

I'm not saying that people should always be noble and act in the greater good. But I think it's also bad if everyone acted for personal good only. I think there should be some balance between the two and in order to find a balance, it's important to consider things like how much other people are getting paid for the same work, which is necessary to determine if you are being treated fairly.

 

Can't disagree with anything you're saying there.  The concern that they might not be paying you because they don't particularly value you is definitely legit.  Maybe that's offset by the fact that they MIGHT pay you?

 

Anyway, they might also not be paying you because they literally don't have the money, but would otherwise love to.  Maybe the OP has some feeling from talking with the department about their attitude and how much they seem to actually want them there?  At the least try that thought experiment I mentioned, and then after you've "solved" it make a list of these "maybes" (potential funding, potential lack of respect, etc) and see if they add anything to it.

 

Good luck regardless, sucks you got stuck in this situation.

[Arcanen]

Never accept an unfunded PhD.

 

It was originally funded and you were accepted, so you must be a decent candidate. Given this, you would be so so much better off applying again next year to other funded programs and going with them.

 

If you take an unfunded offer now, you'll probably never suddenly gain funding through that program. You'll accumulate massive amounts of debt and probably drop out anyway.

[Lisa44201]

In my field, unfunded PhD programs are a red flag. There are several which don't provide "enough" funding, where folks need to take out loans to meet Cost of Living expenses, but completely unfunded programs are not well regarded. Are there other internship opportunities available on campus outside your department which will provide you with at least a tuition waiver and some funding?

[robhat]

Thanks guys for all the helpful replies and valid arguments. 

 

Never accept an unfunded PhD.

 

It was originally funded and you were accepted, so you must be a decent candidate. Given this, you would be so so much better off applying again next year to other funded programs and going with them.

 

If you take an unfunded offer now, you'll probably never suddenly gain funding through that program. You'll accumulate massive amounts of debt and probably drop out anyway.

I was initially planning on applying for the next admission cycle, but the recent turn of events has really demotivated me. So I won't be applying again. However, I'm considering taking GMAT and going to a business school in some years. With my current mindset, I don't really think that I can succeed in a PhD and gain much out of it (even if I'm funded, which most importantly, I'm not). 

 

 

In my field, unfunded PhD programs are a red flag. There are several which don't provide "enough" funding, where folks need to take out loans to meet Cost of Living expenses, but completely unfunded programs are not well regarded. Are there other internship opportunities available on campus outside your department which will provide you with at least a tuition waiver and some funding?

A senior told me that he came in late and he had to fund himself the first year but since then he has been funded by a GA position, which worked out for him but I don't see that working for me since I already have to take care of the educational loan that I took to fund myself for my masters degree. Taking another loan for a PhD would be totally insane. Having said that, I don't really know what to do. I have a very specific skill set which is not recognized in my country yet, so its hard for me to find decent employment to pay the bills. With a job in US, atleast  I'm doing something which I love (and for which I paid a humongous amount of money) and also get paid for it.

I'm exploring options that can at the very least, waive the tuition off, but it seems highly unlikely that I will find one. Being an international student is not easy in US. My dept (nutritional sciences) has just one or two TA positions which usually goes out to the seniors, my parent department (which is food science) has the same case. We are usually handed TA positions in the life sciences department and I have been put on a waiting list for that. I was initially told that most likely I would end up with a biochemistry TA and I should brush up my biochem skills. Erm, not anymore.

@ Jeffster

I realize the point that you are making. But it all boils down to money. I need education but not at this cost. I mean I come from a country where 1USD=60 bucks in my country and I'm not really rich. 
So cost is a thing that I really need to consider. i realize the end point will remain the same but the casualties in the war as you may say, would be much greater.

@TakerUK

Thanks for the honest advice. I totally agree with you on the fact that if international student are doing the same work as domestic students and putting in the same number of man hours, they ought to be paid the same. A little here and there in money is okay, but still, a grad stipend minus no grad stipend is a huge difference.

What I plan on doing now is go to this school (I have no other option, my country doesn't have any jobs for my research).. try to find funding (the prof I'm in talks with has money- I'm not sure though if he would want to invest in me though).. we have this rotation policy and then find a lab.. but I would be skipping that as I already know which Lab I would want to work in. So without digressing, find a lab and get funding, that would be the most ideal.

If I don't find funding the first semester- I would find odd student jobs to support my living expenses, seek a leave of absence in the second semester (if they keep me unfunded, I just hope they have one!) on monetary grounds, get a job, get the hell out. Screw a PhD, then GMAT and an MBA few years later. But I would have to shell out money. Otherwise all the money I have spent till now and all the hard work would remain in dumps, its like I will go four years back if I stay in my country since I would have to seek alternate career options (also an MBA, take a test for that happens once a year and is very very competitive). 

Do let me know if you think this plan is right. I mean I'm so demotivated right now I just think I have made a huge mistake by taking up this PhD offer and quitting my job and everything. 


 

[beyondaboundary]

Bumping this thread because I have a question:

 

I deferred a place in this cycle because though I was admitted to a PhD programme with an excellent placement rate (my only acceptance), it was rolling admission and there was no funding left when I applied (late Feb.). I have since graduated with my MA and am preparing apps for this application cycle. I have had positive and encouraging feedback from POIs at other departments with whom I also have great fit.

 

Here's the thing, I submitted new material to my deferred Dept. for funding consideration Fall 2014 and popped off a note to the former DGS, letting him know. The present DGS wrote me offering me a Spring start with tuition. When I replied telling her that I was applying to other Depts., she said that was not a problem, I could enrol and if I was accepted elsewhere I could move in time for Fall 2014, even though they hope I would stay.

 

There is no promise of funding past Spring 2014 other than that implied by the hope that I would stay if accepted elsewhere.

 

What do you think?

[TakeruK]

Bumping this thread because I have a question:

 

I deferred a place in this cycle because though I was admitted to a PhD programme with an excellent placement rate (my only acceptance), it was rolling admission and there was no funding left when I applied (late Feb.). I have since graduated with my MA and am preparing apps for this application cycle. I have had positive and encouraging feedback from POIs at other departments with whom I also have great fit.

 

Here's the thing, I submitted new material to my deferred Dept. for funding consideration Fall 2014 and popped off a note to the former DGS, letting him know. The present DGS wrote me offering me a Spring start with tuition. When I replied telling her that I was applying to other Depts., she said that was not a problem, I could enrol and if I was accepted elsewhere I could move in time for Fall 2014, even though they hope I would stay.

 

There is no promise of funding past Spring 2014 other than that implied by the hope that I would stay if accepted elsewhere.

 

What do you think?

 

So, the deferred school (let's call it School X) is now offering you tuition for Spring 2014 but nothing else (no stipend, no future funding promise) and meanwhile, you are applying for PhD programs that would give you full funding (tuition plus stipend) starting in Fall 2014. Is that right?

 

If so, then my main concern is that there would be no point at all to start at School X in Spring 2014 if you are going to end up somewhere else in Fall 2014, fully funded. If you do this, the time in the program between Spring 2014 and Fall 2014 would not amount to much and although tuition is covered, you would still have to pay for the costs of moving, living there, etc. However, if you don't get into any programs for Fall 2014, then it would have been good to start early in Spring 2014, if you are okay. I think this all depends on whether or not you're willing to wait until Fall 2014 and whether or not you are willing to be in an unfunded PhD program.

 

1. If you are okay with an unfunded PhD (or uncertain amount of funding, as with School X), and you're in a hurry, then you could start at School X in Spring 2014 and see what happens. You should still apply to Fall 2014 programs and if you get a better offer (i.e. funded) you can switch schools and/or use that offer to see if School X will fund you for the rest of the degree.

 

2. If you are okay with an unfunded/uncertainly funded PhD, and you're not in any hurry to begin in Spring 2014, then I would just defer School X all the way to Fall 2014. See how the Fall 2014 applications turn out and take the best offer you get. In the meantime, maybe you can do something else until then to save up additional money. Although School X will pay tuition, you will still incur living expenses and all the schoolwork will make it hard to earn income. So, if I was going this route, I would try to find full time work doing something to save up (or not lose money) while I wait for a PhD program.

 

3. If you are not okay with an unfunded PhD program / not able to attend a PhD program without funding, I would push School X to promise me full funding beyond their current offer (either now or wait until you hear back from the Fall 2014 applications). I would try to find full time work in between now and Fall 2014 and see if I get into any fully funded PhD programs for Fall 2014. If I was going this route, I would also think of a backup plan to follow in case I didn't get any funded PhD offers for Fall 2014, since this route implies I won't be doing a PhD without a funded offer.

[beyondaboundary]

@TakerUK - Thanks for your detailed answer, it mirrors what I've been thinking. thing is I'm not at all willing to be in an unfunded program, given the added complication of being an international student. The former DGS has asked me to call him so he can talk to me about how things have worked out positively for others in my situation in the past. What is really confusing to me is this sudden offer - the usual start of the programme is Fall and WHAM! tuition scholarship for Spring.

 

My one positive thought is this maybe this is an offer to lock me in for the Fall given that having made a move once, I won't want to do it again. The lack of an income for 16 weeks with only an implied promise at the end is what's grinding.

 

Then there's the whole transfer student scenario with visas and SEVIS and all should a better offer come through. I think I can carry the financial load for Spring but sure as hell no longer...

 

I'm thinking no future commitment on their part, no dice for me - even with that awesome placement record.

 

Just walk away...just walk away I keep telling myself.