WWS with $$$ or HKS without?

[Billy1]

Folks, I have a question:

I have WWS with full tuition and stipend (20) and I have HKS but with no financial details.

On that basis which would you take (If HKS gives no money in the end)?

And if I had tuition but no stipend from HKS

And if both were equal. I'm doing IR...would really appreciate your wisdom on this one as it is an agonizing (obviously happy too) decision that I can't make alone.

Best wishes to everybody,

Billy

[Stephen33]

Even if the financial terms were equal, I would choose WWS. It yields nothing to HKS in terms of either inherent quality or reputation, and it provides a more intimate learning environment. The only reason I would even consider HKS in your situation is if I were pursuing a dual degree in business or law.

btw, congratulations on the very impressive admits.

[Rose]

I agree with Stephen33.

I would pick WWS hands down for IR, regardless of $ from HKS. The opportunity to be in a smaller class of people, plus funding, plus great faculty...you just can't lose.

Congrats, though--I'm sure you'll choose well no matter what you choose.

[younglions]

I pick WWS in all three of your scenarios. Only way I would even consider HKS is if they offer a stipend of at least 4-5K more than Princeton, or if I get external funding (JKC scholarship??) to provide full support (the estimated $134K over two years). Even then, I probably still go WWS.

Woody Woo has impressed me so much in every regard. Every person I've talked to (including a couple people at organizations I might want to work for in the future) has told me that WWS is the premier school for anything related to development/international affairs (maybe domestic too, but our discussion didn't go there).

[auden]

Hi all - I've been reading this board for the past couple of weeks and really appreciate all the information and insight from everyone.

I'm actually in the same boat as Billy, except I've been accepted to the MPA/ID program at the Kennedy School with no word yet on funding. I come from a math and econ background and the most important thing curriculum-wise to me is that there are strong PhD-level econ courses. Both programs seem to have that (I chose the economics and public policy field at WWS), and the two are about equal in class size.

When I was applying, MPA/ID was always my top choice, but I've really been impressed by WWS the more I hear and talk to people about it. I've seen a lot of discussion on the MPP at the Kennedy School but not as much about MPA/ID. Would love to hear your thoughts on how MPA/ID and WWS compare and what you would do given the three scenarios that Billy proposed. Thanks!

[jmoney]

I think there have been a lot of good points raised and discussed in the previous posts. Even though they are all legitimate reasons why WWS is a great school, it seems like the discussion has focused too much on what makes HKS bad and what makes WWS good. I'll give a try at giving some balance to the discussion. (In the interests of full disclosure, I am currently an MPP student at HKS)

As I see it, WWS provides a level of support and attention that you will be hard pressed to find anywhere else. The massive resources they have coupled with the school's small size makes this possible, and this is a major strength that I don't think can be matched. The flip side of a small program is limited breadth and diversity. This can be observed both in the smaller number of available courses, research centers, and the smaller network/alumni base. Therefore, folks with specific interests may find it difficult to find particular scholars/classes, classmates, and resources available to meet their distinct needs. In short, WWS is smaller and tighter--but relatively narrower and relatively limiting. (One particular concern I had when visiting last year was the number of undergraduates hanging out in Roberston Hall. Princeton is, first and foremost, an undergraduate institution. The effect this has on the WWS is that the undergraduate program far exceeds the graduate program in the number of students. The graduate student population at Princeton is also peanuts compared to Harvard. This is something worth talking to alums and current WWS students about to get their perspective.)

In terms of HKS, I would sum it up as a place where the students/people are better than the institution. This isn't necessarily a knock on the school or the institution (well, actually it is), but relative to WWS where there are more resources available to fewer people, HKS doesn't provide the kind of personal attention that a smaller school/program can offer. That doesn't mean that resources aren't available--they are and are numerous--but you have to be savvy about finding what you need. What that means is that HKS and Harvard has everything to offer for those who are entrepreneurial and resourceful. If you want the most rigorous econ/quantitative courses on the face of this planet, you will have access to it as a student at HKS (if not via mpp, then via MPA/ID or GSAS/MIT courses). If you want to diversify your academic experience with a particular policy area (e.g., health, education, law, business, urban, etc), you will have the resources to do so. As a community, you will not find a place more diverse, more international, and more dynamic than the Kennedy School.

One final item to consider is the versatility issue. The MPP/MPA is an incredibly versatile degree. This is a strength in that you can tailor the academic experience according to your interests, but is a weakness in that it is not easy to pin down what an "MPP person" is like in the same the way you can an "MBA person." For those who plan to stay in the government/public sector throughout their careers, it may not matter. But for those seeking to transition into the private sector or even politics (public knowledge of an MPP degree is awful), you'll have to do some explaining/selling of your credentials. So what does this mean for choosing between WWS and HKS? I think the issue of branding and prestige comes into play. How this plays out is interesting. Within most policy circles, WWS is probably the "best" program. Outside, however, HKS/Harvard would likely be assumed to be the "best." I think in neither situation would either school be seen as far behind the other. I suppose I'm not trying to make a judgment call on either program but am simply trying to say what I believe to be true about the reputation and perceptions of the schools. Something worth considering.

That being said, my response to the original question is this: it's hard to justify HKS (no funding) over WWS (with full funding). I wouldn't have chosen HKS had I not been provided significant funding. (Again, HKS is working hard to address the financial aid issue. We recognize how big of an issue it is and are doing our best! Make sure you learn about all the financing and repayment programs.)

[40404]

I'd go with WWS 100%!

[younglions]

jmoney - Your discussions are always insightful. Thanks so much for coming back to these boards to open up the curtains and reveal what you've learned from your experiences one-year in.

Have you got any idea what percentage of HKS students receive funding, and what the average level is for the top 10%, top 25%, top 50%, etc.?

[jmoney]

I don't have the precise numbers you're asking for... unfortunately. What I do have are data from the 2008 MPP class' debt burden and here's how that breaks down. Of the 2008 MPP graduates:

55% have a debt load at or below $39k

19% have a debt load between $40-59k

26% have a debt load at or above $70k

Average overall debt of HKS MPP grads is $44k.

Although this doesn't account for self-selection (e.g., folks with aid will choose HKS, those w/out will not), I think it does show that there is hope for people counting on aid. At least we're not stingy like SIPA! (SIPA funds just 10% of its incoming class!!!)

[linden]

I don't have the precise numbers you're asking for... unfortunately. What I do have are data from the 2008 MPP class' debt burden and here's how that breaks down. Of the 2008 MPP graduates:

55% have a debt load at or below $39k

19% have a debt load between $40-59k

26% have a debt load at or above $70k

Average overall debt of HKS MPP grads is $44k.

Although this doesn't account for self-selection (e.g., folks with aid will choose HKS, those w/out will not), I think it does show that there is hope for people counting on aid. At least we're not stingy like SIPA! (SIPA funds just 10% of its incoming class!!!)

jmoney:

Thanks. These figures give me a reason to remain hopeful.

[charleyj]

jmoney: thanks for your thoughts. they're really quite helpful.

i had a couple of quick questions regarding your last two posts.

first, do students work while attending HKS? Does it seem easy/difficult to get a graduate research assistant position either for a class or at one of the research centers? i was a bit surprised by the debt burden for the 2008 class. it's less than i would have imagined and wondered if that had to do at all with work opportunities.

and second, are kennedy students able to take graduate-level courses from the department of economics? i know that often times economics courses will restrict enrollment to PhD students, and wondered whether this was the case at harvard.

thanks again for all of your insights. cheers.

[linden]

charleyj: I sent you a PM. Linden

[undersec]

I have to echo most of the points made above with regards to debt load. HKS and WWS stack up pretty evenly on a lot of levels, so if you are looking at a $20K per year stipend vs. $80K in debt (maybe less based on jmoney's post), then the decision is pretty simple.

That said, as someone who has worked both in the gov't and international development sector I would say Harvard has two key strengths vs. WWS:

1. The MPA/ID program is new, but absolutely the fastest track to World Bank and regional development bank jobs of any two year program. The curriculum is far more rigorous than other masters degrees and a higher percentage of students will also go on to do Econ PhDs. If econ or the business side of international development are your focus, then I would pick Harvard. Not sure about the access to higher level classes if you are in the MPP program, but my guess is that you can write a pretty rigorous curriculum there as well via cross-registration.

2. My general sense is that Harvard is a stronger stepping stone for government jobs in the U.S. Although PMF opportunities are probably equal at both schools, it just seems like the HKS class has better networking potential, especially when you consider the HKS/HLS folks and the wider range of classes taught by practitioners.

For the record, I am currently admitted to both schools, but waiting on the HKS financial aid package. Harvard is my first choice, but I do need them to step up to the plate and at least match some of what WWS is offering. If that is the case, I will be Boston-bound!

[Rose]

undersec-- I'm curious about your comparison of the MPA-ID/MPP. Outside the realm of quantitative rigor, do you think that or could you assume that both degrees are equally worth the money if your interests are internationally based? WWS seems to offer a stronger international leaning whereas the HKS MPP leans more domestically; the MPA-ID might make up for the domestic lean, but can the MPP folks compete with WWS for international jobs too?

Also, could the somewhat smaller networking capacity of WWS be at all mitigated by taking a gap year in between program years? When I still had a little glimmer of hope for WWS I remember seeing on their website that a good number of students took one year to do fellowships or internships with organizations abroad--this is something I'm not sure HKS' alumni network can match in terms of real experiential connections internationally.

[jmoney]

first, do students work while attending HKS? Does it seem easy/difficult to get a graduate research assistant position either for a class or at one of the research centers? i was a bit surprised by the debt burden for the 2008 class. it's less than i would have imagined and wondered if that had to do at all with work opportunities.

and second, are kennedy students able to take graduate-level courses from the department of economics? i know that often times economics courses will restrict enrollment to PhD students, and wondered whether this was the case at harvard.

1) Yes, many students work while attending HKS. Unlike WWS, HKS allows full-time students to hold a part-time job. If you are indiscriminate about jobs, there are plenty to go around. Mind you, research assistant jobs can be quite competitive. I've applied to two and have nothing to show for it (didn't help that they were really cool projects on the current financial crisis).

2) Yes, many students opt to take higher level economics courses at the Yard/GSAS. In some but not all cases, enrollment requires the professor's approval. If you have the background, it usually isn't a problem. MPPs with significant econ/quant backgrounds also opt to take MPA/ID courses. But there are no shortage of rigorous electives at HKS; one super cool one is Richard Zeckhauser's course on "analytic frameworks for policy." Check out the syllabus: http://www.hks.harvard.edu/degrees/teac ... for-policy.

[charleyj]

jmoney-

again, thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. your note actually prompted one additional question i have. i double majored in international affairs and economics. and over the last couple of years i've been doing economic research for a think-tank. so i think i have the econ/quant background to take higher level econ courses or more technically rigorous HKS electives from the "Analysis of Policies and Institutions" track. but it's unclear to me how easy it is to do so. how can one become exempt from API-101 for example? would i need to take a test? or would someone simply take a look at my transcript and decide that i can handle a more quantitatively rigorous course load?

thanks again for the help.

[jmoney]

There are exemption exams you can take during orientation that allow you to opt-out of the required quantitative MPP core classes (API-101, API-201). It's a fairly straightforward process. Approximately 25-35% of those who take it pass.

[undersec]

undersec-- I'm curious about your comparison of the MPA-ID/MPP. Outside the realm of quantitative rigor, do you think that or could you assume that both degrees are equally worth the money if your interests are internationally based? WWS seems to offer a stronger international leaning whereas the HKS MPP leans more domestically; the MPA-ID might make up for the domestic lean, but can the MPP folks compete with WWS for international jobs too?

Also, could the somewhat smaller networking capacity of WWS be at all mitigated by taking a gap year in between program years? When I still had a little glimmer of hope for WWS I remember seeing on their website that a good number of students took one year to do fellowships or internships with organizations abroad--this is something I'm not sure HKS' alumni network can match in terms of real experiential connections internationally.

I actually am hoping to enter the MPP class, but as part of a joint degree. With the other course and condensed schedule, I hope to take a number of rigorous quant courses, but without the exact restrictions of the MPA/ID.

On your second question, I would guess that it depends on your stage of career. I did work with an international student (from HKS, not WWS) who was working between his 1st and 2nd year in the program, but he was somewhat less experienced and I think it therefore served more to his advantage. If you are pushing 30 (or past it!), then you have an established resume and may not want to take an entire year off at what may be a temporary position. Just my 2 cents...

[spitts77]

I don't have the precise numbers you're asking for... unfortunately. What I do have are data from the 2008 MPP class' debt burden and here's how that breaks down. Of the 2008 MPP graduates:

55% have a debt load at or below $39k

19% have a debt load between $40-59k

26% have a debt load at or above $70k

Average overall debt of HKS MPP grads is $44k.

Although this doesn't account for self-selection (e.g., folks with aid will choose HKS, those w/out will not), I think it does show that there is hope for people counting on aid. At least we're not stingy like SIPA! (SIPA funds just 10% of its incoming class!!!)

This sort of bums me out as I got no $ from HKS. It makes me feel that HKS doesn't want me bad enough and that I should go somewhere they do. Anyone else feel the same?

[dreamer]

Spitts77, I feel the same way. But then, sometimes our applications isn't able to tell a complete story. Think about it: if they had given u $10k a year, would you go? If so, maybe, now we have an opportunity to make use of the HKS opportunity and perhaps, make much more than $20k savings over a few years.

But yes, I am struggling with the decision-making as well. I think if I deferred and got considered for finaid next year, chances of funding are much better.

Good Luck!

[moreandmoreso]

I think that if HKS had offered me even 10k a year I would have chosen to go there already. I would still be $60k in debt after 2 years, but that's better than $80k, right?

As it is, it's decision day and I'm still agonizing away. Good grief.

[stilesg57]

I think that if HKS had offered me even 10k a year I would have chosen to go there already. I would still be $60k in debt after 2 years, but that's better than $80k, right?

As it is, it's decision day and I'm still agonizing away. Good grief.

If you're between Ford and HKS I know what I'd do:

HKS in a heartbeat. And I'm going to Ford in the fall.

If you get into Harvard, you go to Harvard. It's the single most recognized name in the world when it comes to all things academia. Whatever debt you rack up you'll be able to pay back. You'll be in touch with Harvard alumni and Harvard grads run the world. I wouldn't worry about debt one iota to have an advanced degree from Harvard.

So, what's your decision?