Women in grad school

[MakeYourself]

Wow, I started this thread and completely forgot about it (sorry!). I actually started it one day after being completley fed up with my department and the gender discrimination that I felt I faced. Not gonna lie... I was fuming when I started this thread. I eventually got over it and forgot about it, but I'm so glad to look back now and see that it sparked some great conversation. And also some great links to consider.

[TeaGirl]

1) Many women think this about men who are actually not more capable then they are.

 

2) Yes, both cases exist, but what matters more is the relative prevalence in which they exist.

 

3) What metrics do you use to assess the gender discrimination? Admittedly, you are not provided with many same-gender peers. Probably, you are not provided with many same-gender mentors. Statistically speaking, you will likely get less credit than a man for the same work. (I linked a science-specific article but this trend generally exists.)

 

Look, I get what you're saying. I agree with you on the statistics. However, keep in mind that statistics are an average. That means you'll have cases on both end of the spectrum. My personal experience doesn't negate the experience of thousands of women, but neither does theirs negate mine.

 

1) I figure you're just using my example as a general point. In my personal example, I figured that out by by seeing them objectively do better in exams and manage more difficult projects than what I could do. I don't suffer from false humility, but I give credit where credit is due.

 

2) I never said academic discrimination didn't exist or wasn't even more prevalent, I just shared my own personal experience. You say that you accept both cases might exist, yet you argue vehemently against one when it does? I don't understand.

 

3) Well, my undergrad department chair, who was my prof and who I did some research with and interacted with quite a bit was a woman and one of my role-models. She was, in my opinion, one of the best in the dept. if not the best and she's now the vice-provost. I had a male advisor during my MS who treated me pretty equally to my male project partner, and both he and I were pretty similar down to our same gpa's. My advisor was supportive and helped me a lot in my career. My two current co-advisors are male and female. I also have worked with both male and female students. I base my purely personal experiences based on those comparisons.

 

Finally, I'm sorry that you seem to dislike my own experience because it doesn't match the data, but I dislike having to offer up my history as evidence for making a simple statement, and then having my every statement questioned for validity. While it's great that we're having a discussion, I've experienced far more discrimination than just gender based in other areas of my life. I know what discrimination is and what it's not, and I'm intelligent enough to recognize it without needing someone who has never even met me to question my ability to do so. It feels very patronizing.

I'd love to talk about the studies, especially about the inequality in pay and promotions. However, you're right, I'm feeling personally singled out in this thread for being a bit different, which is making me feel defensive and on the whole is a little ironic considering the topic of this thread.

[raneck]

Tea girl, I often find myself in the same position as you are, having to "defend" my personal experience.  I am not able to point to an situation in my past where I can say that I have been discriminated against due to being a female in academia.  I just can't.  I know that it is prevalent, and I know lots of people who have experienced it. I just have not experienced it myself.

 

But no matter how many caveats I stick in front of that statement, people still get pissed.  The most memorable occasion was a semi-blind date that I was one with another female grad student in my university.  She asked me if I had ever felt discriminated against as a woman in academia, and seemed shocked and disturbed by my negative response.  The remainder of the "date" deteriorated into her positing ideas for how I had really truly been a victim of discrimination, but just wasn't willing to admit it.  Was I just too ashamed to talk about it? (no.)  Had I been programmed (as noted above) to automatically assume that men are truly better (No.  Despite the arrogance of the statement I am the best/smartest student in my lab).  Did I just never notice that I was being discriminated against? (... maybe?  How the hell do I even answer that?)

 

Needless to say, it was one of the worst dates I had ever been on.

[DropTheBase]

Finally, I'm sorry that you seem to dislike my own experience because it doesn't match the data, but I dislike having to offer up my history as evidence for making a simple statement, and then having my every statement questioned for validity. While it's great that we're having a discussion, I've experienced far more discrimination than just gender based in other areas of my life. I know what discrimination is and what it's not, and I'm intelligent enough to recognize it without needing someone who has never even met me to question my ability to do so. It feels very patronizing.

I'd love to talk about the studies, especially about the inequality in pay and promotions. However, you're right, I'm feeling personally singled out in this thread for being a bit different, which is making me feel defensive and on the whole is a little ironic considering the topic of this thread.

 

 

 

Why feel upset about having to defend yourself? Usually if someone claims evidence for something statistically unlikely happening, he or she will defend it all day, or at least admit when certain concerns were not accounted for. 

 

I think it's a little over-dramatic (ha! female stereotype) to think you're being singled out for "being different." Your experience is different and that's all we're interested in. 

 

DTB

 

EDIT: ..and I of course don't mean to ignore or trivialize your perception of events (fuzzylogician is watching  ).

Edited December 13, 2013 by DropTheBase

[Queen of Kale]

First off, I'm talking about men hiding their prejudices. Second, if you genuinely believe that you've never been academically discriminated against, that's a good thing! The reason it's so hard to believe that you haven't been discriminated is because no one can be certain that they haven't been discriminated against.

 

Let's say there's a visiting male professor coming to give a seminar, and a male PI can only take one person in the group to dinner and drinks with the speaker. Let's say the PI chooses a guy instead of a girl in the group. How does the girl rationalize that choice? How does she know that the PI didn't choose the guy because he thought the speaker would be more comfortable having dinner with another guy? There's no obvious discrimination there. In fact, the girl might settle to thinking that the guy:

 

 

Ideally, that will actually be true, but one has no way of knowing.

 

That's why we rely on statistics to suggest gender discrimination.The numbers indicate that there is still active gender discrimination. It's often carried out in such a way that's not at all obvious. Men have gotten so good at hiding their sexism that they might not even realize when they're discriminating.

 

DTB

More like 'Drop the Knowledge' 

 

Although I tend to stick to the 'never happened to me' camp - I'm always glad to be around when this discussion happens.  Because I think it's easy to not see, or not want to see discrimination which applies to you - it makes you feel weak or whiney or like you're making excuses.  I will march for anyone's rights but my own, see discrimination everywhere but my own life, and just 'suck it up' or brush it off if I'm ever being discriminated against.  And that's why its nice to have someone who reminds you that the proof is in the numbers.  It doesn't have to feel personal if you're not ready for it to.  You can just know that it's happening and deal with it objectively like the other types of injustice which are easier to address because they don't revolve around you.  At least, that makes it easier for me to recognize and work against discrimination against women in science & academia.

[TeaGirl]

Well, it's one thing when someone is curious and asking for extra details, and another when the tone is accusatory and insisting I'm wrong till proven otherwise.

 

I did want to talk about the studies that were posted though. I keep wondering about the difference in pay/promotion and whether it's the system that is responsible for it by actively denying higher pay or promotions, or whether women aren't negotiating.

 

We have a faculty/grad student women's group organized by our female faculty members that meets up a few times per semester and discusses women's issues that are relevant to our careers. We were discussing the book "Lean in" and one of the points raised was how many of us tended to under-appreciate our own achievements. Actually that was the point many of the female faculty in the group were trying to convey to the grad students, not to wait to be told that you are good, but knowing that you already are. 

 

Another book that talked about the same issue is "Women Don't Ask." The woman who recommended it to me hadn't asked for a raise in the 2 years she was at her company because she didn't feel like she earned it yet. After she read the book, she went to her boss and asked for a raise. She got it too. Contrast that to her younger husband, who after only 4 months on the job, deemed himself experienced enough to go ask for a raise and a promotion. It struck a chord because I find it very difficult to ask for things.

 

Do others here also find it difficult to ask for things (extra pay, more recognition, etc.)? It seems common enough that multiple popular books are written about it, but I wonder where exactly in our lives are we picking this up?

Edited December 13, 2013 by TeaGirl

[nnnnnnn]

TeaGirl, I tried to make a conciliatory statement and look at things from your perspective, but I actually feel I am the one being attacked by you.

 

You say that you accept both cases might exist, yet you argue vehemently against one when it does? I don't understand.

 

Finally, I'm sorry that you seem to dislike my own experience because it doesn't match the data, but I dislike having to offer up my history as evidence for making a simple statement, and then having my every statement questioned for validity.

 

I know what discrimination is and what it's not, and I'm intelligent enough to recognize it without needing someone who has never even met me to question my ability to do so. It feels very patronizing.

 

I'm feeling personally singled out...

 

Well, it's one thing when someone is curious and asking for extra details, and another when the tone is accusatory and insisting I'm wrong till proven otherwise.

 

You have very many statements where you put words in my mouth. Even when you direct quote me, your following text of paraphrase is used misconstrue my words as way more aggressive and personal than they are.

 

I am asking you for more detail, because my experience was in contrast to yours. In doing so, I am asking you to observe your experiences through fairly common metrics of gender bias (or lack thereof). As DTB noted, why feel upset about this?

 

 

I know what discrimination is and what it's not, and I'm intelligent enough to recognize it without needing someone who has never even met me to question my ability to do so.

 

Implying that all the women who don't recognize discrimination are of lower intelligence? I think it has nothing to do with intelligence, I think it has to do with subtlety and social conditioning, as I mentioned before.

 

I am fairly well read in studies concerning gender bias, so if I sound skeptical, it's simply because I am a scientist.

[TeaGirl]

TeaGirl, I tried to make a conciliatory statement and look at things from your perspective, but I actually feel I am the one being attacked by you.

 

I'm really sorry if I gave that impression. I quoted you to answer your question, but that bit at the end wasn't attacking you personally, I was just expressing my frustration. I felt like every time I made a statement, the response (not from you personally, but overall) was to brush it aside either as insignificant statistically, or as me somehow not recognizing my situation, when this thread was asking about personal experiences not statistical averages. It's possible I'm looking at/understanding this all wrong and got a little caught up, and if so I apologize .

 

You have very many statements where you put words in my mouth. Even when you direct quote me, your following text of paraphrase is used misconstrue my words as way more aggressive and personal than they are.

 

Again, that particular statement was not addressed to you personally but in response to DTB on defending myself, which isn't really the expectation walking into a friendly discussion forum. I'm not exactly submitting a peer-reviewed article here nor expecting to have to defend everything I say.

 

Implying that all the women who don't recognize discrimination are of lower intelligence? I think it has nothing to do with intelligence, I think it has to do with subtlety and social conditioning, as I mentioned before.

 

Now who is putting words in whose mouth ? I did not imply this at all. All I said that given my experiences, readings on the topic, and yes, my own intelligence, I understood well enough my own situation to recognize it if it occurred. I wouldn't presume to speculate on other women when I don't know their situation!

[NatureGurl]

All I said that given my experiences, readings on the topic, and yes, my own intelligence, I understood well enough my own situation to recognize it if it occurred. I wouldn't presume to speculate on other women when I don't know their situation!

 

That's the whole point of research, though, right? To be able to describe a more general problem. Yes, we can and should use individual case studies to explore these issues in more depth for particular individual characteristics and contexts. But, there are also larger trends in the general population/culture that we should acknowledge, even if it's not true for our own particular situations.

[DropTheBase]

which isn't really the expectation walking into a friendly discussion forum. 

 

Friendly discussion forum? Response. 

 

------

 

If I may bring up a slightly different topic, I ran into this piece the other day about female aggression: link. Actual study.

 

I only have minor anecdotal experience with this (..my girlfriend). Does this happen often in grad school as well?

 

DTB

[TeaGirl]

Friendly discussion forum? Response. 

 

I think you just made me wake up my roommate with my unladylike bark of laughter.

 

 

If I may bring up a slightly different topic, I ran into this piece the other day about female aggression: link. Actual study.

 

Oh dear. I'm not proud to admit that I do this sometimes. Not act on it, but at first impression I become intimidated by very well dressed sexy women and imagine them as mean or not nice. I learned to keep a tight lid on my reaction though, and luckily enough, one of these women ended becoming one of my best friends.

[St Andrews Lynx]

If I may bring up a slightly different topic, I ran into this piece the other day about female aggression: link. Actual study.

 

I only have minor anecdotal experience with this (..my girlfriend). Does this happen often in grad school as well?

...I can't see it *not* happening in grad school. 

 

I think there is an additional pressure on women in grad school not to be seen as more concerned with their appearance than their studies - that you can't be serious about research if you wear designer clothes. But then again, if you're a woman in grad school who doesn't care about their appearance at all...well, other women negatively judge you on ill-fitting clothes and lacklustre attire, too. 

[ChocoLatte]

I'm fortunate in that my department is female-dominated and is aware of this type of thing happening.  Our problem is having the students--particularly the male students--take us seriously.  Some of us (the grad students/TAs) look like we could still be in undergrad, no matter what we wear, and have to put a stronger effort into asserting our position and authority than the males in the cohort.

 

It's an interesting balance between dressing professionally (which unfortunately includes at least minimal make-up and some nice clothing) to get the message across to the students while not spending what the department may see as "too much" effort on clothing/appearances.

[i.am.me]

My department is also female dominated ^ but there is a decent male presence also. I've never felt that people have tried to put in a box more than I have been in the past couple of months - I think it's mostly because I look really young..like a sophomore in college when I will be turning 30 soon. I dress appropriately but the huge winter coats really mess up my game lol (15 F feels like -3). 

 

I've never been under the impression that I've needed to balance fashion and professionalism though - most of the profs in my dept are...oddly well put together.