What is the Upper Bound for Number of PhD Programs to Apply To?

[Deliberate]

Would it be obnoxious to my letter writers to apply to, say, 25 schools?  Or is there some cultural limit to the number of places you should apply to?

 

I've been advised by other grad students to "apply to as many schools as you can", but I'm trying to figure out exactly what that number amounts to.  My worry is that it's rude to my rec writers to force them to send out letters to too many places.

[MattDest]

I applied to about 20 schools, and my letter writers didn't seem terribly bothered by it. While there's no certain cut off, I would think anything 25+ is pushing it. I know that I feel pretty ridiculous applying to so many schools, but I didn't want to have to go through this process again. 

[bar_scene_gambler]

I think most faculty write one letter of recommendation and then adapt it to the different programs you're applying to. My department chair (who is writing me a letter) told me she pretty much sends out the same letter to every school. So I don't think it'll be too much of a hassle.

[danieleWrites]

The upper bound? What's in your bank account? Transcripts plus application fees plus cost of any campus visits. That would be the upper bound.

[philstudent1991]

I agree with daniele, plus, if you don't actually want to go to a place then don't apply there. Are there really 25+ programs that are a good fit for you? probably not

[maxhgns]

In my mind, in an ideal world everyone would apply to about 10 programs. The norm, however, seems to be about 20. Depending on your AOI, you may or may not find that many programs which are a good fit. If you're into the philosophy of art and you're applying to 25, I think you're making poor decisions. If you're into metaphysics or language, however, then it might be a workable number.

[wandajune]

I'm applying to 12, because it's what I can reasonably afford. If you can reasonably afford 25, I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with that. Maybe check in with your letter writers and ask for their advice, especially if you're concerned that they'll be bothered by the number.

[purpleperson]

I'm in English rather than Philosophy, but I applied to 13.  I had planned to apply to 14 (and I was able to afford it); I just decided last minute that I didn't want to live in the area where that 14th school was.  I figured it'd be better to not apply than to get accepted only there and feel like I "should" go to some place where I don't even want to live.  Right or wrong, city matters to me. 

 

Strangely, though, just chopping off that one school from my list makes me feel so "vulnerable."  Like...I've reduced my chances so dramatically!  But realistically, I just don't want that 14th school, so....

[comicline865]

You don't need more than 5, provided they are all good choices in terms of program and location.

[jamc8383]

You don't need more than 5, provided they are all good choices in terms of program and location.

 

I agree.  The 5-8 range seems reasonable.  I did six.  There were six programs whose focus and faculty I felt could really support my project (in History, full disclosure).  I can't imagine there are 25 programs that are ideal fits for anyone's proposed research aims.  Forget about recommenders, I can't imagine revising my SOP 25 times in order to argue credibly that each of the programs provided for a reasonable (let alone compelling!) fit with my experience and goals.  Revising the SOP six times to convince programs that we were made for one another was excruciating enough.  20?! 25?!  MattDest, how did you do it?

[MattDest]

I agree.  The 5-8 range seems reasonable.  I did six.  There were six programs whose focus and faculty I felt could really support my project (in History, full disclosure).  I can't imagine there are 25 programs that are ideal fits for anyone's proposed research aims.  Forget about recommenders, I can't imagine revising my SOP 25 times in order to argue credibly that each of the programs provided for a reasonable (let alone compelling!) fit with my experience and goals.  Revising the SOP six times to convince programs that we were made for one another was excruciating enough.  20?! 25?!  MattDest, how did you do it?

 

Yeah, I would have *preferred* to have applied to just 5-8 programs, but knowing how competitive the process is and how many programs are generally applied to by prospective students, I felt that applying widely was in my best interest. I would honestly love to attend any of the programs I applied to, and could pursue my interests at each of them. 

 

As for how I managed to do it - it wasn't too bad. My letter writers didn't think my list was too long (they encouraged me to apply to as many as I could afford), and were very cooperative with sending in their letters. I only re-worked my last paragraph for each SOP, and it was sort of easy given that I already knew the AOI/faculty that I would want to work with at each university. 

[philstudent1991]

looks like my final count will be 13, 11 phd and 2 MA. I get the sense that that is pretty average. some people do fewer, and if that is all you can afford or all you feel you are a good fit with, then great. some do over 20, and if you can afford that then power to you.

 

to the point of cutting out a program because of its city...I think that's a perfectly valid reason. you are gonna spend the next 5-7 years here if its a phd...you better like it!!! I struggled with this as well. Wisconsin Madison is a great fit for me in a lot of ways and seems like a great program (56 dollar app fee, finally someone trying to make the process easier on applicants!!!)...but I just know that I personally wouldn't be happy in such a cold environment. weather is actually a big factor in happiness. its cold where I am now, and I just cant imagine somewhere colder haha.

 

so is 13 too few? I don't think so. I may be delusional, but I think there's just no way I get shut out. and if I do, that probably means I don't belong in philosophy.

[dfindley]

if acceptance rates are 5-8% ... maybe the more, the merrier.

I just used the same SOP for every school. whatever, I feel -- you'll do most of your reading research outside of the formal curriculum anyways (which, in my mind, will be mostly supplementary. at least from my undergrad experience at a continental school.)

[axiomness]

Apply to as many as you can afford. If you have zero money, get waivers if offered and a credit card or two. I am applying to 18 (was 19, Colorado dropped), but thankfully was able to line up many fee waivers. If those didn't exist I would only be applying to around 5-10.

 

As to jamc, for me writing at least the first 4 or five "types" of SOPs was most of the work. From those basic formats, I could adapt one to fit each program with only a couple paragraphs and some tone/emphasis shifting. 

Edited December 24, 2013 by axiomness

[jamc8383]

As to jamc, for me writing at least the first 4 or five "types" of SOPs was most of the work. From those basic formats, I could adapt one to fit each program with only a couple paragraphs and some tone/emphasis shifting. 

 

I guess I mean't "how" not in terms of strategy but in terms of mental endurance.  Still, I'm impressed.  Good luck to all! 

[objectivityofcontradiction]

25 schools will run you AT LEAST $3,000....

[Loric]

 

Would it be obnoxious to my letter writers to apply to, say, 25 schools?  Or is there some cultural limit to the number of places you should apply to?

 

I've been advised by other grad students to "apply to as many schools as you can", but I'm trying to figure out exactly what that number amounts to.  My worry is that it's rude to my rec writers to force them to send out letters to too many places.

 

 

The school you have the best chance with is the one for which you are the best fit.. and the best fit takes careful planning and proper presentation. This cannot be accomplished with a high number of applications. So every time you add an app, you're taking away from the pool of existing apps in time, effort, creativity, mental fortitude, etc...

 

Once you start copying-pasting or considering programs interchangeable that's when you've gone too far. If you can't speak to it as if it were actually unique then you're just phoning it in and shooting yourself in the foot.

[objectivityofcontradiction]

^^^^Nailed it. 

[MattDest]

The school you have the best chance with is the one for which you are the best fit.. and the best fit takes careful planning and proper presentation. This cannot be accomplished with a high number of applications. So every time you add an app, you're taking away from the pool of existing apps in time, effort, creativity, mental fortitude, etc...

 

Once you start copying-pasting or considering programs interchangeable that's when you've gone too far. If you can't speak to it as if it were actually unique then you're just phoning it in and shooting yourself in the foot.

 

I disagree, I think people should apply as widely as possible. Consider that there are usually 5 parts of a philosophy PhD application, and certain parts are given more weight than others. Arguably, this is how you might rank each part in order of importance (There is likely to be justifiable disagreement about the exact ordering, but I don't think anyone would ever put, say, the SOP over the writing sample or grades): 

 

(1) Writing sample

(2) Grades (also where you went)

(3) Letters

(4) GRE

(5) SOP

 

The *only* one which is necessary to tailor for each school (and some don't even do that much!) is the SOP. It's arguably the least important part of the application. While fit is incredibly important, this can be pretty well-identified in a general SOP, by the topic of the WS, by the work that your letter writers identify you doing, etc. The first four do not vary from school to school, and the only time you will spend is sending in scores, transcripts, and your writing sample (plus filling out the personal information on the application - which takes maybe 10-20 minutes). 

 

Most applicants apply quite broadly, and admissions are incredibly competitive. Unless you have a completely stellar application, it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily limit the number of schools you apply to because it might exhaust your mental fortitude. You shouldn't apply to anywhere you wouldn't go if accepted - that's just silly - but people with broad interests could easily have good fit at plenty of programs. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by MattDest

[Loric]

And generic vaguely broadly interested people get rejected in droves..

 

I dont trust your order of importance at all.

[objectivityofcontradiction]

Hmm... I feel it falls more in this order:

1. WS

2. Letters

3. Fit 

4. Luck and/or the inclinations of committee members. Example: Professor X works in ethics and hasn't taken on students for a couple of years and decides, "Hey, this year I'd really like to start working with PhDs again. Look! This person's SOP fits great with what I am currently working on and every thing else seems to fall into the standard of excellence we expect form our students: great sample, good letters, high marks, good GREs. I'll argue for their acceptance."

Edited December 26, 2013 by objectivityofcontradiction

[Loric]

I think everyone vastly over estimates the WS.

[greencoloredpencil]

I disagree, I think people should apply as widely as possible. Consider that there are usually 5 parts of a philosophy PhD application, and certain parts are given more weight than others. Arguably, this is how you might rank each part in order of importance (There is likely to be justifiable disagreement about the exact ordering, but I don't think anyone would ever put, say, the SOP over the writing sample or grades): 

 

(1) Writing sample

(2) Grades (also where you went)

(3) Letters

(4) GRE

(5) SOP

 

The *only* one which is necessary to tailor for each school (and some don't even do that much!) is the SOP. It's arguably the least important part of the application. While fit is incredibly important, this can be pretty well-identified in a general SOP, by the topic of the WS, by the work that your letter writers identify you doing, etc. The first four do not vary from school to school, and the only time you will spend is sending in scores, transcripts, and your writing sample (plus filling out the personal information on the application - which takes maybe 10-20 minutes). 

 

Most applicants apply quite broadly, and admissions are incredibly competitive. Unless you have a completely stellar application, it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily limit the number of schools you apply to because it might exhaust your mental fortitude. You shouldn't apply to anywhere you wouldn't go if accepted - that's just silly - but people with broad interests could easily have good fit at plenty of programs. 

I'd like to endorse this wholeheartedly and add that it's been my advice from several professors that I showed my SOP to for advice. In short, I was told that I was spending too much time on the SOP when I was worrying about tailoring it uniquely to each school. As Matt noted, there's plenty of room for argument in the exact order of importance of application components, but generally most agree that the SOP ranks pretty low among them. Of course one doesn't have to have a completely generic copy-paste statement for each school, but minor adjustments in emphasis/highlighting should do. Especially considering that you should have picked schools in the first place that were a good fit for you, the SOP you write should be appropriate for all of your schools barring the types of adjustments mentioned. 

 

[objectivityofcontradiction]

I think everyone vastly over estimates the WS.

 

Maybe some do. But I think it not all that controversial to note that there are a basic set of expectations (content excluded) that one's sample is expected to meet and if your paper lacks the traits of what a potentially good graduate philosophy essay should look like, that is, simply put, not good for your chances.

 

I'd be interested to hear your take, Loric. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by objectivityofcontradiction

[SelfHatingPhilosopher]

During my first round, I applied to 6 programs. 3 MA's and 3 PhD's. Only had one outright rejection, the rest were a mix of acceptances and wait lists. All of them were finely chosen.

 

Next year, I will definitely apply to more programs, probably around 10-15. While I don't think there is necessarily an upper bound, I do think students in general apply much too broadly and apply to programs with which they have no real interest.