Want Your Sanity? Lie About the Deadline to Recs!

[Eigen]

And yet ironically here's your long explanation of why you're "justified."  Again.

 

I don't recall having given a long explanation of why I'm justified previously for this to be an "again", but sure, lets roll with it. 

 

Can I take a moment and be honest with you Eigen?

 

While I feel that leaving my response to you with just a snide remark - fitting of the offensively smug superiority you use to address others - I want something to be perfectly clear. Lest you continue to have even the remotest inclination otherwise.

 

I think exceptionally little of you, your clique, and your ways. I think you'll amount to nothing, but worst of all think you've accomplished something. I think you'll make no mark on the world and die unknown, uninteresting, and as unappealing as a human being as ever. You've constructed this entire little world where butt-kissing and doing as your told is the right and righteous way of being and you tell other people to do so to stay within the good graces of your chosen peer set.

 

I'm just waiting for the day the real world gets ahold of you and does what it always does.

 

I don't doubt you can eat data and crap out conclusions so you're "good" at academia - but I seriously doubt you've ever learned anything and I would never believe any of your research work is going to amount to anything other than a gold star from your superior... which sadly is all you live for.

 

My attitude toward you and your equally rotten little cohorts is contempt - and it is "justified."

 

I find it interesting that you assume so much about me. You assume my primary goal is to be an academic, that I do what I'm told, and even that I have no real world experience. I'm not exactly a traditional grad student.

 

That said, I'm also surprised to see that I'm apparently a member of a clique, or a cohort here. Who'd've thought. 

 

Either way, I obviously inspire great rage in you. I can't remember the last time someone got so personally offended at me and everything I stand for in a post, and I think that one was about religion or politics. 

[LinguisticMystic]

That was fantastic! I can only hope to someday be slandered so ridiculously on the internet.

Then again, I'd be laughing a lot less if I ended up in a program with Loric. Sorry to those who do.

[katethekitcat]

This application cycle, I requested a letter from a professor who, although he'd written me glowing letters of recommendation for internships in the past, often had difficulty doing so on time. I factored that in and asked him for a letter two months before the letter was due. I clearly stated, "I am hoping to have my applications done by [insert date]. Do you think you could have the letter finished by that time? If not, what would work for you?" If he needed more time, he could ask for it - but it gave him the opportunity to name the date, which gives me a date I can reasonably hold him accountable to. He chose it himself - the actual school's date didn't even have to be mentioned. I received the letter in plenty of time - and even had built in enough of a safety margin I was able to last-minute apply to other places.

 

Professors are doing us the favor by writing letters. Not the other way around. They don't owe you anything, especially with that attitude. It is your responsbility to do your research on deadlines far enough in advance to account for the fact they might have 20 other letters to write, a full class load, research to conduct, committees to sit on, families...I agree with the posters above. If I was a professor and found out a student was blatantly lying to me for this purpose, I would not only refuse to write a letter, I would share this information with my department. A student who has no qualms about doing this is going to have no qualms about manipulating data to meet a submission deadline for a conference.

 

Loric, you have over 400 posts in this community. If it really digusts you so much, no one is forcing you to hit that "post" button. You're welcome to depart for other forums that better appreciate your analysis of strangers.

Edited December 13, 2013 by katethekitcat

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I agree with the idea of this vendetta that Loric has against this prototypical college do-gooder. I know people like this do exist and there are many of them (probably many on this site). But I don't know if people like Eigen and others are these people, and I don't care to get to know. I guess it doesn't bother me as much since I didn't grow up around it. I went to shitty high schools, dropped out, got a GED from a converted 7-eleven, joined the Armed Forces, got out of that mess, wandered the country, went to community college, then transferred to a low-tier university where being a student is a bottom-shelf priority. But I've come across these people and they do annoy the shit out of me. You know the type. Loric's put it in much betters words than I can. These people who don't do anything if it can't fit on their CV. These people who didn't realize school was optional until after they got their PhD. They're a big part of the reason I don't know if I can deal with a life of academia. When you're a professor and you're younger than all your students, maybe you should pull your dick out of your Mac and look out your window. I guess I'm just an advocate for life experience. And Loric is an advocate for free thinking. Some people will get offended. Big deal. 

[TakeruK]

I agree with the idea of this vendetta that Loric has against this prototypical college do-gooder. I know people like this do exist and there are many of them (probably many on this site). But I don't know if people like Eigen and others are these people, and I don't care to get to know. I guess it doesn't bother me as much since I didn't grow up around it. I went to shitty high schools, dropped out, got a GED from a converted 7-eleven, joined the Armed Forces, got out of that mess, wandered the country, went to community college, then transferred to a low-tier university where being a student is a bottom-shelf priority. But I've come across these people and they do annoy the shit out of me. You know the type. Loric's put it in much betters words than I can. These people who don't do anything if it can't fit on their CV. These people who didn't realize school was optional until after they got their PhD. They're a big part of the reason I don't know if I can deal with a life of academia. When you're a professor and you're younger than all your students, maybe you should pull your dick out of your Mac and look out your window. I guess I'm just an advocate for life experience. And Loric is an advocate for free thinking. Some people will get offended. Big deal. 

 

I understand and agree with the point of your post but I don't agree with a "vendetta" against anyone, unless they are actually actively harming people. I am a "prototypical college do-gooder" in the sense that I went to an okay high school, got into a good university, got good grades, went to more school etc. I might have a little more life experience outside of academia than someone who perhaps grew up in a better-off family, with parents who are in academia etc. (the extent of my life experience is working "blue collar" [for lack of a better term] jobs to pay for school in the first few years since my family has nothing saved up).

 

So I am glad that people with more life experiences are advocating a different perspective on this forum. I draw from my own experiences and provide what I think is helpful advice. People with more academia experience (perhaps grew up in a household of academics) can also provide a different point of view. And people with viewpoints that go against what most people would do should also post their perspective here. However, these viewpoints are not going to agree all the time, and it's the differences that help people make the best decision for them. I don't personally attack Loric when he posts his viewpoints. I do attack the opinions when I don't think they are helpful or correct and provide my own justification, expecting others to attack them when I'm wrong. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that why should there even be vendettas at all? I don't think, objectively, that my academic experience is any better than e.g. JoeyBoy's life experience. But in some cases, it might be helpful to know something from the academic experience, such as how LORs might work. Alternatively, someone with only academic experience might say that you can never ever get into grad school without a 3.9 GPA. But someone with more life experience to augment a lower GPA might be able to explain why that's a narrow point of view. Everyone has different things to contribute to the discussion but everyone should realise that because we have all this freedom to say what we want, it means that there will be disagreements and your opinions may be challenged and picked apart.

 

Even if you don't get along in real life with people from other groups, you can still accept their experience and opinions as correct if they are. It's a fact that in research oriented PhD programs, a letter from your research supervisor will be far superior than a letter from someone who taught you a class. It doesn't matter who said it, whether or not they come from the "clique" that you identify with, or the "clique" that is the one that annoys you and you hate their values. Instead of attacking an opinion because of who originated it, why can't we discuss the merits of each opinion only.

 

Also, in the theme of "why can't we all get along?", why can't we all get along, despite identifying with and belonging to different groups? e.g. At my undergrad school [and probably many other places], there is a rivalry between Science majors and Arts majors with one group thinking the other is soulless or brainless. That's stupid. Just because someone is different from you, or has different values from you, or even do things differently from you does not automatically mean they are wrong or bad. The world and this GradCafe community would be so boring if we all agreed with one another.

 

So, yes, not everyone will agree with everything everyone else says. Big deal indeed. But let's not have vendettas. Let's disagree in a mutually respectful and constructive way!

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I understand and agree with the point of your post but I don't agree with a "vendetta" against anyone, unless they are actually actively harming people. I am a "prototypical college do-gooder" in the sense that I went to an okay high school, got into a good university, got good grades, went to more school etc. I might have a little more life experience outside of academia than someone who perhaps grew up in a better-off family, with parents who are in academia etc. (the extent of my life experience is working "blue collar" [for lack of a better term] jobs to pay for school in the first few years since my family has nothing saved up).

 

So I am glad that people with more life experiences are advocating a different perspective on this forum. I draw from my own experiences and provide what I think is helpful advice. People with more academia experience (perhaps grew up in a household of academics) can also provide a different point of view. And people with viewpoints that go against what most people would do should also post their perspective here. However, these viewpoints are not going to agree all the time, and it's the differences that help people make the best decision for them. I don't personally attack Loric when he posts his viewpoints. I do attack the opinions when I don't think they are helpful or correct and provide my own justification, expecting others to attack them when I'm wrong. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that why should there even be vendettas at all? I don't think, objectively, that my academic experience is any better than e.g. JoeyBoy's life experience. But in some cases, it might be helpful to know something from the academic experience, such as how LORs might work. Alternatively, someone with only academic experience might say that you can never ever get into grad school without a 3.9 GPA. But someone with more life experience to augment a lower GPA might be able to explain why that's a narrow point of view. Everyone has different things to contribute to the discussion but everyone should realise that because we have all this freedom to say what we want, it means that there will be disagreements and your opinions may be challenged and picked apart.

 

Even if you don't get along in real life with people from other groups, you can still accept their experience and opinions as correct if they are. It's a fact that in research oriented PhD programs, a letter from your research supervisor will be far superior than a letter from someone who taught you a class. It doesn't matter who said it, whether or not they come from the "clique" that you identify with, or the "clique" that is the one that annoys you and you hate their values. Instead of attacking an opinion because of who originated it, why can't we discuss the merits of each opinion only.

 

Also, in the theme of "why can't we all get along?", why can't we all get along, despite identifying with and belonging to different groups? e.g. At my undergrad school [and probably many other places], there is a rivalry between Science majors and Arts majors with one group thinking the other is soulless or brainless. That's stupid. Just because someone is different from you, or has different values from you, or even do things differently from you does not automatically mean they are wrong or bad. The world and this GradCafe community would be so boring if we all agreed with one another.

 

So, yes, not everyone will agree with everything everyone else says. Big deal indeed. But let's not have vendettas. Let's disagree in a mutually respectful and constructive way!

I guess I should've chosen my words more carefully. I don't have a personal vendetta against this particular type of person. But Loric has described this type of person many times throughout many posts (usually creatively and entertainingly worded) and this type of person he describes does annoy me. I don't have a vendetta against them though. I probably would if I grew up in that world. But I didn't, and I'm still not really around them much (still finishing up my undergrad at the bottom-tier university). I didn't just mean a "college do-gooder." I'm probably one of those. I have a near-4.0 and devote a lot of time to my studies. But I'm also a person, and being a student doesn't define me. If I want to pass out turkeys to impoverished families during Thanksgiving, I do it out of the goodness of my heart. It's not some calculated move that I can use to pat myself on the back in an SOP five years from now. I guess that's just what I meant. 

[Sigaba]

I agree with the idea of this vendetta that Loric has against this prototypical college do-gooder. I know people like this do exist and there are many of them (probably many on this site). But I don't know if people like Eigen and others are these people, and I don't care to get to know. I guess it doesn't bother me as much since I didn't grow up around it. I went to shitty high schools, dropped out, got a GED from a converted 7-eleven, joined the Armed Forces, got out of that mess, wandered the country, went to community college, then transferred to a low-tier university where being a student is a bottom-shelf priority. But I've come across these people and they do annoy the shit out of me. You know the type. Loric's put it in much betters words than I can. These people who don't do anything if it can't fit on their CV. These people who didn't realize school was optional until after they got their PhD. They're a big part of the reason I don't know if I can deal with a life of academia. When you're a professor and you're younger than all your students, maybe you should pull your dick out of your Mac and look out your window. I guess I'm just an advocate for life experience. And Loric is an advocate for free thinking. Some people will get offended. Big deal. 

 

The other side of the coin is that individuals such as Loric and Pinkster12 intentionally behave in ways that motivate professors--especially younger ones--decide to have as little to do with students as possible.

[Loric]

Actually.. if you look at those PHD Comics you'll notice it's the grade-mongering and the "will this be on the test?!?!" over achievers who make the newer instructors want to quit academia completely.

 

"It's in the syllabus!"

 

Seriously, do I come off as someone who would ask those sorts of question? I dont debate my grades or ask for extra credit because I specifically don't care about grades or think they matter. Guess who does?

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Actually.. if you look at those PHD Comics you'll notice it's the grade-mongering and the "will this be on the test?!?!" over achievers who make the newer instructors want to quit academia completely.

 

"It's in the syllabus!"

 

Seriously, do I come off as someone who would ask those sorts of question? I dont debate my grades or ask for extra credit because I specifically don't care about grades or think they matter. Guess who does?

I had one of those recently. I was in a Calculus 3 class. This kid (and I do mean kid... he didn't look a day over 16) got a 104 on the midterm. The class average was less than 50%. And this is Calculus 3, midway through the semester so lots of students had already been filtered out. So I thought the kid was really passionate about mathematics. I'm not a math major, but I'm good at it and I enjoy it. I tried talking to this kid a few times. He could care less about math. Everything was about getting an A in the class. Every question he asked in class began with, "If this were on a test, how should we answer it?" He also wore an MIT shirt all the time (and this was definitely not MIT). 

[Loric]

MIT is not that hard to get into..

 

Can you tell him that for me...?

[Sigaba]

Actually.. if you look at those PHD Comics you'll notice it's the grade-mongering and the "will this be on the test?!?!" over achievers who make the newer instructors want to quit academia completely.

 

"It's in the syllabus!"

 

Seriously, do I come off as someone who would ask those sorts of question? I dont debate my grades or ask for extra credit because I specifically don't care about grades or think they matter. Guess who does?

 

Loric--

 

My understanding of the Ivory Tower doesn't come from reading comic strips but rather from listening to professors talk about undergraduates and graduates like you.

 

IRT your view on the importance of grades, your previous posts on that subject suggest a different narrative than the one you're offering in this thread. You flunked out of one program and have subsequently rationalized your inability to put forth your best effort by casting yourself as some sort of anti-establishment crusader who doesn't care about grades. Yet, the question remains: if you really didn't care about grades, then why are you spending time trying to convince everyone that you don't care about grades?

 

It is my view that you are very much like those graduate students who "grade monger" in that you seek all the attention you can get and that you don't understand the difference between self esteem and self respect. The difference is that while those individuals seek approval for its own sake, you seek controversy.

[Loric]

I didn't fail out, thanks.. I do have failing grades because i was registered for the next semester and for god know's what reason wasn't dropped from the classes. I had quit 3/4 of the way through the prior semester though, and no one at the school can explain why the grades even exist or what to do about them.

 

"You need to submit this petition form, it's $3 to do so."

 

"What?"

 

"$3."

 

"Seriosuly? To fix your mistake..? That's messing up my transcript..?"

 

"Well, possibly. This is the petition for us to consider modifying your transcript. You also need proof you withdrew."

 

"How do I prove I was withdrawn when I wasnt there? Get people to sign off saying they didn't see me?!? Who? I wasnt there to know who was there!"

 

And that's the fiasco in a nutshell. It certainly does cement my opinion of the business of academia as a joke.

[Loric]

Oh and..

 

"We'll get back to you with a decision as to if we're willing to consider your petition and look into the matter and change your transcript within 6 months, at which time we will notify you of our decision and then, if we accept your petition, we will begin an investigation."

[Sigaba]

I didn't fail out, thanks.. I do have failing grades because i was registered for the next semester and for god know's what reason wasn't dropped from the classes. I had quit 3/4 of the way through the prior semester though, and no one at the school can explain why the grades even exist or what to do about them.

 

"You need to submit this petition form, it's $3 to do so."

 

"What?"

 

"$3."

 

"Seriosuly? To fix your mistake..? That's messing up my transcript..?"

 

"Well, possibly. This is the petition for us to consider modifying your transcript. You also need proof you withdrew."

 

"How do I prove I was withdrawn when I wasnt there? Get people to sign off saying they didn't see me?!? Who? I wasnt there to know who was there!"

 

And that's the fiasco in a nutshell. It certainly does cement my opinion of the business of academia as a joke.

 

You allege that don't care about grades but look at all the excuses and clarifications you offer for your performance. Yet, by your own admission, the reason is simple. You quit.

[Loric]

Jeeze, there really is no reasoning with you.

 

So you're saying young instructors are fustrated by students who quit..?

 

Because it really seems like you've yet to make a cohesive point other than your distaste for me and being subsequently contrary.

[Loric]

I'm still sitting here looking over your posts trying to figure out your point..

 

What "all" are you talking about? I've mentioned this once, possibly twice. And what poor performance? I was given a B in a class I dropped out of 3/4 of the way through and didn't complete.. how is that poor? And i dont think i've really mentioned that..

 

Unless you think quitting is performing poorly..?

 

How does that figure? I wasn't driven out. I didnt like the school or the people and was unwilling to continue. How is that poor performance..?

 

You seem quite firmly rooted in thinking anyone who doesn't prefer academia is somehow less-than-thou. Meanwhile you try to claim "thou dost protest too much!" but in reality the only time I've ever brought it up was to correct your erronous assumptions about things.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Loric

[Icydubloon]

10/10 would read again

[Loric]

brother, we can't ALL be wrong. 

 

Every time I see this response I'm compelled to respond.. but keep putting it off because I don't want to just chew you out.

 

Yes, you most certainly can all be wrong. In fact, looking at history you can find many instances where a majority were convinced they weren't "all" wrong but turned out to be precisely that. It's almost as if a group consensus is the precursor to being so very wrong.

[Eigen]

I guess I should've chosen my words more carefully. I don't have a personal vendetta against this particular type of person. But Loric has described this type of person many times throughout many posts (usually creatively and entertainingly worded) and this type of person he describes does annoy me. I don't have a vendetta against them though. I probably would if I grew up in that world. But I didn't, and I'm still not really around them much (still finishing up my undergrad at the bottom-tier university). I didn't just mean a "college do-gooder." I'm probably one of those. I have a near-4.0 and devote a lot of time to my studies. But I'm also a person, and being a student doesn't define me. If I want to pass out turkeys to impoverished families during Thanksgiving, I do it out of the goodness of my heart. It's not some calculated move that I can use to pat myself on the back in an SOP five years from now. I guess that's just what I meant. 

 

I just wanted to chime in and say that this resonates strongly with me. The biggest issue I had with other undergraduates when I was an undergrad was those that did things just to buff up their CV. And since I routinely organized service activities, I had to deal with them, a lot. 

 

Similarly, now, my biggest pet peeve is pre-med students that want research experience not because they're interested, care about they work they're doing, or want to learn, but because they want another professor to give them a letter of recommendation for grad school.

[Human_]

Loric you have 24 hours to reply to post #27 or Eigen wins by default.