Alright, Give it to Me Straight.

[MariElizabeth]

I'm applying to the following english graduate programs:

 

University of Minnesota (PhD)

Penn State (M.A)

CU (M.A)

NYU (M.A)

Carnegie Mellon(M.A)

Brandeis (M.A)

University of Washington (M.A)

Northwestern(M.A)

Boston University (M.A)

 

I'm incredibly nervous coming from a lower-tier state university, and I'm hoping a few kind folks could weigh in on my chances of admission to the schools listed. Should I have applied to lower-level schools?

 

GRE verbal: 168

GRE writing :4.5

GRE math :142 (embarassing)

cGPA: 3.69

English GPA: 3.79

 

I know how important other factors, such as the SOP and writing sample are to the application but I just want to get an idea of where I stand otherwise. 

[Loric]

What's your GRE Q?

 

It still matters, just not a lot. You need to meet baseline benchmarks. 290-310 combined for a lot of places. Otherwise your GPA, Recs, and SOP better be darn compelling.

 

For that matter, what's your GRE writing score...? You need to be above 3.5, more than likely a 4.0 (and that's pushing it for an english program).

Edited January 6, 2014 by Loric

[MariElizabeth]

GRE verbal: 168

GRE writing :4.5

GRE math :142 (embarassing)

cGPA: 3.69

English GPA: 3.79

Edited January 6, 2014 by MariElizabeth

[Loric]

Raise the math. 290 is considered the low-ball combined for even art schools. You have a shot, but it's all uphill. If you can raise the math you'll look much better on the GRE front. Many people say 310 is the cutoff, and you did go for higher-end schools.

[MariElizabeth]

Oof, I really thought the math portion wouldn't matter much for English literature programs. 

[iExcelAtMicrosoftPuns]

Oof, I really thought the math portion wouldn't matter much for English literature programs. 

It doesn't. Still some places have to justify assistantship funds to the admins. These admins (as admins are prone to do) like to set arbitrary limits - it gives them something to talk about on the golf course. I have read that some places require a 310... but who knows maybe they can.

Now I don't mean to pick on you... perhaps you get nervous around numbers. But 122?!?!

I thought 130 was the lowest possible score.

[MariElizabeth]

Oh shit, I really am bad with numbers! I meant 142! 

[champagne]

Oh shit, I really am bad with numbers! I meant 142! 

Ha! That's better. You should be fine as far as the minimum total considered for funding . And, let's face it, that's a huge factor for picking an MA program. You aren't going to blow them out of the water with your numbers, but I don't imagine you will be denied anything because of them. That's the method I keep hearing: GRE scores won't get you in, but they can certainly keep you out.

 

With that said--and this will be a repeat of what has been said countless times on this board--the most important parts of your application will be your writing sample, your SOP, and your LOR's (probably in that order). I don't pretend to know ANYTHING about your personal situation (please feel free to correct me), but from what I understand, it can be a bit harder to get good recommendations from three professors at larger schools. Once again, take that with a grain of salt as you probably have a great relationship with professors.

 

If you feel that you fit well with these programs and you put your best foot forward in your writing sample and SOP, I have no reason to believe that you will be rejected just based on the information presented.

 

That's my .02, and it's probably worth even less than that.

[MariElizabeth]

BowTieAreCool,

 

Do you have any insight regarding the schools I've applied to? Out of my reach? 

[gk210]

I thought BU english MA's due date already passed, same with University of Washington...or maybe I'm stupid and didn't read their website right. I'm applying to CM too though, and my GRE scores were pretty close to yours. I received about the same math and AWA score as well. 

[iExcelAtMicrosoftPuns]

BowTieAreCool,

 

Do you have any insight regarding the schools I've applied to? Out of my reach? 

Nothing* is out of reach.

*This statement has not been evaluated by anyone who knows anything. This advice is not meant to cure, diagnose, or treat anxiety

But really. Your guess is as good as mine. They've certainly taken folks with lower numbers and they've likely turned folks away with higher numbers.

 

[hashslinger]

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think that Northwestern, Brandeis, or NYU offer funding for their terminal MA programs (if that's what you're applying for). This will make these programs easier to get into. However, you shouldn't do an unfunded MA degree--especially not in a city like New York, Boston, or Chicago. If you don't get funding, you're better off applying again next year.

[Katia_chan]

I specifically talked  to a program that had the 310 cutoff.  The woman I spoke with, after hearing that my verbal and writing scores were good, said it wasn't really going to be a problem.  Unless they are so ungodly huge that they chop off at the numbers without even looking at specifics, you aren't going to be any worse off than the rest of us.

 

As for specific programs...I haven't a clue. We're all just guessing here, after all.

[gatz]

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think that Northwestern, Brandeis, or NYU offer funding for their terminal MA programs (if that's what you're applying for). This will make these programs easier to get into. However, you shouldn't do an unfunded MA degree--especially not in a city like New York, Boston, or Chicago. If you don't get funding, you're better off applying again next year.

Seconding this, I wouldn't be worrying whether or not I get into an unfunded masters, I'd be thinking hard about the value of that investment instead. There are lots of places that will pay you to get a masters. Some of their deadlines are still open too!

[skybythelight]

I was accepted to (and currently attend) the University of Washington with a significantly lower verbal GRE and GPA than you have.. I did not get funding, however. Just to give you a tangible response. Good luck!

[Strong Flat White]

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think that Northwestern, Brandeis, or NYU offer funding for their terminal MA programs (if that's what you're applying for). This will make these programs easier to get into. However, you shouldn't do an unfunded MA degree--especially not in a city like New York, Boston, or Chicago. If you don't get funding, you're better off applying again next year.

 

CU Boulder is also unfunded. As to what someone "should" or "should not" do, I appreciate the intention behind the advice but I can't sit comfortably with the notion that this particular kernel of wisdom categorically fits all cases (for PhD I'd happily go along with this, but not MA). An unfunded MA might be just the ticket for someone...indeed, an unfunded MA has been just the ticket for a lot of someones, like me and pretty much my whole cohort, from what I know of them at least.

[echo449]

CU Boulder is also unfunded. As to what someone "should" or "should not" do, I appreciate the intention behind the advice but I can't sit comfortably with the notion that this particular kernel of wisdom categorically fits all cases (for PhD I'd happily go along with this, but not MA). An unfunded MA might be just the ticket for someone...indeed, an unfunded MA has been just the ticket for a lot of someones, like me and pretty much my whole cohort, from what I know of them at least.

Sure, but it's a bad job market for everyone, as I'm sure you know, and whether someone should take an unfunded MA or not should probably be understood in terms of financial realities. That's a lot of debt to take on for this career, especially if they have undergrad debt. 

[hashslinger]

CU Boulder is also unfunded. As to what someone "should" or "should not" do, I appreciate the intention behind the advice but I can't sit comfortably with the notion that this particular kernel of wisdom categorically fits all cases (for PhD I'd happily go along with this, but not MA). An unfunded MA might be just the ticket for someone...indeed, an unfunded MA has been just the ticket for a lot of someones, like me and pretty much my whole cohort, from what I know of them at least.

As far as grad school advice goes, that is the one piece of advice that I will absolutely stick to. No one should do an unfunded MA. Not just because the job market is so terrible, but because there ARE tons of MA programs that will fund you. Tons. Go to one of those. Unless you're independently wealthy *and* can't relocate.

 

I am sympathetic to people who don't have stellar undergraduate records and therefore have to do a master's in order to make themselves appropriate for a PhD program. I was one of them. I got an MA at a no-name (but funded) program. I managed to take my no-name-but-funded MA and get into a PhD program. But let me tell you, the job market is a total slaughter, and I'm really glad I don't have a bunch of MA debt around my neck. I'll probably be on the market for about two or three years, which is average for a lot of people these days.

[shortstack51]

As far as grad school advice goes, that is the one piece of advice that I will absolutely stick to. No one should do an unfunded MA. Not just because the job market is so terrible, but because there ARE tons of MA programs that will fund you. Tons. Go to one of those. Unless you're independently wealthy *and* can't relocate.

 

I am sympathetic to people who don't have stellar undergraduate records and therefore have to do a master's in order to make themselves appropriate for a PhD program. I was one of them. I got an MA at a no-name (but funded) program. I managed to take my no-name-but-funded MA and get into a PhD program. But let me tell you, the job market is a total slaughter, and I'm really glad I don't have a bunch of MA debt around my neck. I'll probably be on the market for about two or three years, which is average for a lot of people these days.

 

I disagree. Because of student loans from undergrad and/or not having a family able to support them financially, some people can't afford to take time off if all they have to work with is a BA in English. For some people, the short term is more important to think about simply for survival. Even finding a summer job was impossible for me, and my family can simply not afford to have me live at home. I pay for all of my own living expenses. However, I was accepted into a good school for a terminal MA, unfunded. I've been told that my chances are high going forward. I do not regret my decision to enter into an unfunded program at all despite the ridiculous loan rates. My only advice on the topic would be that if you're going to do a terminal MA, it would be best to do it at a school that does not have a combined program (I've heard that if you have a terminal MA from a school that has a combined program, it raises red flags).

 

Nearly every professor I had as an undergrad was still paying off loans (different at my MA, where most professors got their PhDs at ivies). It's pretty common for students of English to have a lot of debt.  Expecting more than you may get can also lead to a lot of angst in the future. In terms of the job market, it's important to enter PhD programs with good placement numbers as well and a good professional development office. If I get accepted into my school's PhD program, I have an 80% chance of full-time academic placement after being awarded my doctorate and a 60% chance of tenure-track employment. Some people also refuse to apply for positions at schools that they feel are "beneath" them, which is part of what's clogging up the job market. Additionally, schools are now wary of hiring people who they believe may use their time there as a way to gain experience before applying to one of the top schools instead because people use small private schools as stepping stones too often.

 

tl;dr I believe it's better to focus on the short-term things that are best for you at the moment. If you want to take time off and reapply and you are financially able to do so, then that's a perfectly valid option. But entering an unfunded program is not the end of the world.

Edited January 27, 2014 by shortstack51

[Swagato]

My only advice on the topic would be that if you're going to do a terminal MA, it would be best to do it at a school that does not have a combined program (I've heard that if you have a terminal MA from a school that has a combined program, it raises red flags).

 

 

Thanks for posting what I would've posted in response to hashslinger, but (in turn) I must differ with you on the point quoted above. I, and many friends, earned our MAs at the University of Chicago's Master of Arts Program in the Humanities. You'll find that opinions are very mixed on this board as far as that program goes. There are good reasons, of course, but the biggest concerns are, precisely, that it is A) mostly unfunded, and a combined program. There are certain "tracks" within it, but it is designed to allow for interdisciplinary opportunities.

 

However, I will also say that placement from there to top-tier PhD programs has also been very, very good (among those who pursued further graduate work). I know of strong placements in English, Philosophy, History of Art, and Film and Media Studies. I personally benefited, and was offered admission to two superb programs. 

 

So it isn't always the case that a combined program carries problematic associations.

[shortstack51]

Thanks for posting what I would've posted in response to hashslinger, but (in turn) I must differ with you on the point quoted above. I, and many friends, earned our MAs at the University of Chicago's Master of Arts Program in the Humanities. You'll find that opinions are very mixed on this board as far as that program goes. There are good reasons, of course, but the biggest concerns are, precisely, that it is A) mostly unfunded, and a combined program. There are certain "tracks" within it, but it is designed to allow for interdisciplinary opportunities.

 

However, I will also say that placement from there to top-tier PhD programs has also been very, very good (among those who pursued further graduate work). I know of strong placements in English, Philosophy, History of Art, and Film and Media Studies. I personally benefited, and was offered admission to two superb programs. 

 

So it isn't always the case that a combined program carries problematic associations.

Thanks for the correction! I was just talking to someone who went to U of Chicago and said something similar. I don't know where I got that idea from--perhaps it only happens with some schools.

[Strong Flat White]

There are just so many scenarios in which an unfunded MA not only works but is even a good idea for so many people that they cease to be "exceptions to [some random] rule" and have to be accepted as legitimate possibilities for a wide cross-section of aspiring literature scholars. Hashslinger actually points out one such scenario (being "independently wealthy *and* unable to relocate"), which I take from its rhetorical flourish to be seen by Hashslinger as wildly improbable, but I'm not sure why. Not everybody is a broke young single person emerging directly from undergrad (or whatever demographics would supposedly constitute those two extreme determinants), and the narrowness of the statement brings along a whole set of assumptions that I know to not necessarily hold for many many many students. There are so many positions along both of these spectrums - finances and mobility - that even just that single scenario is in desperate need of nuance and reconsideration. But even apart from that, please consider, too, that an MA degree is only a small fraction of the time of a PhD, that many of the "unfunded" options provide any number of TA-ships, RA-ships, tutoring gigs, guest-editing options, work-study eligibility, travel grant accessibility, etc. Consider that some people might very easily make that small fraction even smaller by accelerating the time-to-degree within an already-short program. Consider the possibility that even vaguely-defined "members of a campus community" might somehow have access to a "tuition remission" or "credit benefit" or even just flat-out have jobs that cover the cost of a higher degree. Consider that these boards are pretty thoroughly dominated already by the notions of both "fit" and "placement record," either of which might *on its own* (not to mention in tandem) warrant strong consideration of attending a non-funded program *even if* the student has an admission from another program that *is* funded. Someone else suggested that an unfunded program might be a good idea for not-so-ideal applicants to earn their lit cred and get up to snuff on the competitive side of things - maybe rocking out that unfunded program is precisely how an applicant obtains a glowing rec from a huge name in the right specialty. Some people might not be independently wealthy enough to just fire tuition into a black hole, but that is, in my own experience, a caricatured image of reality anyway - I am far from independently wealthy, but my domestic situation nevertheless affords me a way to go to a really great program that fits me very well in terms of interest and is known for its MA-to-PhD placement reputation and I have been fortunate enough to creatively round up a number of these factors to help me from spiraling into a crippling debt...and that will remain true regardless of whether I ever "make it" in the fiercely competitive job market, and as I said earlier, that is also true of most of my cohort, at least from the information they give me. And we're not exactly creatures from outer space, either - we come from all walks of life, all over the globe (i.e., I'm surrounded by what I'm talking about, and I know it's not a local phenomenon). I'm also quite certain these scenarios are not exhaustive - it wouldn't take much imagination to expand them - and what's even crazier is that each of these scenarios is so far from improbable that I either identify with every single one or (in the case of accelerating time-to-degree, which is the single consideration here that does not fit my circumstance), I know plenty of others for whom it has made it worth it. From what I can tell, the broke person with unlimited mobility is actually a lot less likely than some conglomeration of the above factors: I've yet to meet this person.  

 

The likelihood of me continuing on to a solid PhD program and therefore continuing to succeed in this crazy journey is far higher for having chosen an unfunded MA, and I can say (again) that I am not alone in this. Very far from it. If I get into a good PhD program, I will have my unfunded MA to thank for it - this incredible experience that professionalized the crap out of me and left me standing, financially.

 

Look, nobody here actually knows MariElizabeth's situation, or anyone else's for that matter. There's not really a right or wrong, a should or should not. OP said, "give it to me straight."  Well, here's straight: As with all the hyper-cautionary rhetoric that zooms around these boards, I will say again that I appreciate the sentiment. I bet there's a lot of students for whom the advice is dead-on...we just don't know who they are. For everyone else, the sentiment is the take-away here. It says, "be thoughtful, please don't do any permanent damage to yourself." But I usually find that I'm inclined to temper the doomsday do's and don't's with a healthy dose of "trust that the applicant has a good grasp of the situation." Of course we're all sharp cookies, otherwise we wouldn't be trying to do what we're trying to do (which should probably be a categorical don't, following Hashslinger's logic). On top of that, if any of us were trying to do what we're trying to do out of a conventional sense pragmatism or prudence, we're all ridiculous anyway...so yes, maximize your odds in a tough arena. Do right by yourself. Do what you can to make it less of a "slaughter." Make thoughtful decisions about what's right for you. That may or may not include an unfunded MA. And don't kid yourself that a funded MA necessarily brings you any closer to your endgame. Unless, of course, it does, because you are, you know, you, and you happen to be all the way desperate, financially, yet somehow completely mobile, geographically.

[Jocko]

I wanted to reply to the first post-- there seems to be serious confusion about the GRE scores in the previous response. The 310 cut- off thing is based on the OLD scores, which range from 200-800. The new scores go from 130-170. It would be impossible to get a 310. I really don't think they care about the math score much. I've heard that programs look at your total score, but that is mostly aimed at more math based programs. Engineers need to be able to comprehend and analyze what they read, but English professors aren't required to know how to find the area of a triangle or evaluate spatial relations ( unless you do space theory, I guess). So, 168 is a pretty solid verbal score. The writing score is kind of a joke--If you wrote a decent theoretical analysis the readers probably wouldn't even understand it ( I think the programs know this as well). And a 3.7 UGPA isn't bad, either.

You are definitely qualified for any graduate program available. The problem is many ( maybe even most) qualified applicants are rejected. So, your writing sample, LOR's and MOST importantly, your area of interest, focus and "fit" with the department are what will make the difference.

[viviandarkbloom]

Pretty sure the 310 figure is a combined score for verbal and quant - ie it would be impossible in the old system, not the new one. That's certainly the case at SUNY Buffalo, the only other place I've seen that posts a minimum for fellowships (313)

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

The 310 is definitely for the new scoring system. It would be wayyyy too easy to get a 310 combined score on the old system--schools would look silly for having such a low minimum bar set. Place usually explicitly state that they're talking about the new scorings system. 

 

 

 That's certainly the case at SUNY Buffalo, the only other place I've seen that posts a minimum for fellowships (313)

 

 

Also, Duke has a minimum combined score.... I believe.