prospective painting grad...

[vonny]

hey guys,

 

brand new here, randomly stumbled upon this website through a google search. i have a couple questions for some of you more experienced users... 

 

i graduate in december (saic) then plan on applying to grad schools (probably west coast schools) im really curious about your opinions on going to a top ranked non state school vs a state school or university. in the end of it all, is paying full tuition at the big name worth it vs. getting a free ride at a state school, say, any of the UC schools. i know in the end it is all personal decision, just curious as to what some of you guys have seen/know. did you plan on teaching after getting your mfa or why did you pursue your mfa? id like to teach after, of course have my own studio practice simultaneously...

 

i hear grad school location is where you end up staying for a while and establishing yourself, is this true for most?

 

are there any schools that accept mfa painting grads in the spring, or are most programs starting in the fall? ive seen very few is why i ask.

 

thanks!

[kwonberry]

ya know there are quite a few state university programs that are also at the top.

[vonny]

yes, maybe this is naive but wouldnt going to a school near a big art market (cali, ny) be better than going to say, university of iowa?

[seeingeyeduck]

It's funny that you ask this, because I literally just got an email from CCA about grad admissions for potential applicants. I'm not sure I can comment on the painting programs, but having been on the scene for a few years, I can tell you a bit about the schools (though I just applied this season so I don't have grad experience). I'm in NorCal so I don't know about CalArts, but I can speak to the Bay Area.

 

In terms of timing, it looks like virtually all are fall entries, but SFAI has a low res MFA that starts in the summer:

http://www.sfai.edu/important-dates-0

 

What are the top ranked non-state schools you're referring to? I assume CCA, Mills, CalArts and SFAI? If you can get funding for them, I've known people who came out of them who are doing shows and active, but if you can go to a UC or Stanford, I would do that instead, since the programs are funded, tiny and you can virtually a 1:1 teacher:student ratio, whereas at CCA or SFAI you are paying through the nose to be a part of a class of 100+ grad students. There's certainly not going to be a 1:1 ratio. Although both schools do rolling admissions into the summer, so that can be good if you need somewhere to go. Stanford is really the only private school that still gives you full funding and stipend (and they have quiet, large studios for each grad!), since they have a huge endowment. It's worth a try. Some of the grads had done their UG at CCA or SFAI, so it ultimately depends on your work and ideas. SF State might also be a good option - they have pretty good facilities and don't cost nearly as much as the UC schools (maybe 1/3?). I'm really not sure how the rankings are the way they are - I would not rely on them. Do your own legwork, because the rankings don't seem to factor in financial concerns at all!

 

Problem is, any school with full funding is going to take <10 people and be super competitive, so I would start really talking to your professors now to assess how strong your portfolio is. Get the most info you can from them about admissions! I was only confident applying to 3 schools after hearing a couple of people assure me that I had a good chance. Otherwise, I may have gone the CCA route too. If you can get someone to put you in touch with either a faculty member at the schools you're considering, or a recent grad, that would be smart. It's great that you're starting now!

 

To me, it seemed like each type of program has its upsides and downsides. You're not going to meet as many people in the small programs, so you'd better hope you like your dept, whereas at a larger school, you can meet lots of people with lots of interests. The campuses are all very different too, so factor that in - some of the UCs are remote, others are in beach towns, LA is totally different from Berkeley, Stanford is kind of isolated, CCA is in the heart of the city, etc...

 

Really take into account the finances, esp since CA is so expensive. LA is not as bad, but the Bay Area is getting really hard for artists now that we're coming out of the recession and prices are going up everywhere. If you can afford the private schools out of pocket, that's a great way to go, but otherwise, they can cost some $30-57k/yr and that's insane for an art degree where everyone comes out competing for a handful of teaching jobs. Most grads from even prestigious schools have dayjobs after graduation, or they freelance while adjuncting. I've seen two grads get tenure track jobs a few years out of school, but the rest of the cushy teaching jobs are taken by older people who will stay as long as they can and others who have really great exhibition records or won the SECA award or something.

 

Be prepared with a back-up plan in case it doesn't pan out for you, both in terms of applying as well as teaching jobs afterward. You could be one of the superstar/lucky ones, but I think it's smart to have a plan for what-if. I'm honestly not sure what most people who take out loans for CCA do after. I mean, 100 art graduates, few arts jobs, $100k worth of debt - you do the math! Basically they may have to stop being an artist to pay off the schooling. Anecdotally I've heard that they try to give support to the top students but really the rest are there to pay the bills.

 

Because of the cost of living in CA, it's not necessarily better to go to a big art market. There are more opps, but EVERYONE is going after them, and it costs more to live while you may not be getting paid more at your average service or admin job. You still need money for materials if you want to keep making art after! If your work is good, you could find it easy to rise fast in a smaller area, then make a leap to the bigger markets when your name is more established.

 

I hope that doesn't scare you off though - I think there are good options. I met some really nice people at SF State and I bet there are comparable state schools in SoCal too.

Edited February 28, 2014 by seeingeyeduck

[vonny]

thanks for the response, duck. the non state schools that come to mind for me are mica, risd, saic, sfai, cca, etc. im just going off the 2012 us news rankings (knowing they change) 

 

id much prefer to hit a west coast school with funding > others... schools like the university of california system come to mind, usc, stanford. i pick california as a state (not that i am opposed to schools elsewhere) since i am in chicago now and it is a bit loud so ny would just be magnified.

[mlk]

I don't want to be a snob or a hater... and I know I am being one... but I think that mica, sfai and cca are not good schools. Mica is better than the other two but I think that as a grad program for painting they are for people who are not truly talented to beat the overwhelming odds against artists trying to make a living. there are always exceptions but I think it is not intelligent to go about planning your career on the assumption that you are the exception in a sea of less talented peers.

 

ignore the us news rankings. they mean nothing. MICA is rated about UCLA, Hunter, Bard and Calarts, which is so patently absurd as to negate the list's relevance completely. SFAI is a top ranked school? I literally cannot remember having seen someone who got their mfa there showing at a gallery in NYC. which may be due to its distance from NYC of course, but then again you see people with MFA's from UCLA, Calarts, USC showing all the time in NYC.

I think it's better to look at the schools of the people who are showing at good galleries and in museums (etc) - not for BFA but for MFA's specifically. those are the schools you should attend.

 

in my opinion (take it or leave it) the only private universities worth going to for painting are:

 

art center

cal arts

saic
u chicago

northwestern

yale

bard

columbia

risd

cranbrook (maybe)

usc (even though they don't really have painters there - I don't understand why anyone on this board is applying for painting there)

vcu

people seem to be hot on temple on this board but I haven't seen much good work come out of it

 

maybe I am forgetting a school, please correct me if I am

 

I would add nyu, pratt, parsons and sva hesitantly, only because they are in NYC and I do believe that there are good painters at every school - it would probably be more advantageous to be an exceptional painter at a worse NYC school than it would be at a school in SF or Baltimore.

 

but I would never go to a school like MICA, SCAD, CCA, SFAI - they are too remote and too expensive. they may have good facilities but you do not need good facilities or special technology as a painter.

 

why knowingly go into debt to go to a school that will stamp you as a mediocre artist? why not fly under the radar at a decent public university? good teachers are everywhere. it is easier to be a good teacher than it is a good artist, and I think that those two categories do not often overlap. my attitude regarding expensive private schools is you should either go to a school with a good location or a remote school that has good painters (which is basically only vcu)

[vonny]

thanks for the response, we have similar views as to why i would not go to those schools. i am curious tho, being from the chicago suburbs and am attending saic now, why u chicago, aside from saic is the only midwest school listed? i have heard good things about them but is not always in the conversation when talking to some people about mfa programs. (no hate on u chicago, i know its a great school)

[mlk]

U chicago: I get the sense that it is an up and coming school. It has a good faculty, a ton of money, and is associated with one of the best universities in the United States and with a good university gallery (ren society). Some people don't know about it and some people discount it because it is in Chicago.

I also listed northwestern.

And I am also from the Chicago suburbs (btw).

[seeingeyeduck]

I'll reiterate my rec of Stanford. Shiny name overall, full funding + stipend, and very small program.

 

Re: NYC vs SF - also think about where you want to have a career. I do think that it's easier to get a start in a place where you have already made some connections. Going to a CA school wouldn't be good if you planned to move far away right after anyway. On reflection, virtually all the opps I've been given are because a faculty member I knew was kind enough to mention me to someone, which wouldn't really work if you move 5000 miles away. So think about which place you want to put down some roots in, at least for a few years. I'm not sure I agree that NYC is the end all be all and that everywhere else is the sticks. Not many of us can become Damien Hirst but we can have long careers in smaller scenes and continue to make art, which is the whole point anyway. There is an intimate scene in the Bay, a bigger one in LA. I do hear about how many artists there are in NYC and how rough the competition is as a result.

 

The flip side of the comment about it being better to be at a crappy NYC school than to be remote is that it's better to be a paid teacher in a remote location than it is to be a starving artist in NYC...

 

I agree that SFAI is locally not regarded as a great school, but on the other hand, that is where several local tenure track professors went there for UG (another came out of CCA MFA but had independent scholarship full funding). That's just the ones I know of, so I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand. I think it really depends on your work and how personable you are. You can make great work anywhere if you take the initiative. A degree from a shiny school will give you a boost, but studies show that doesn't tend to last. A lower tier school is not a death sentence either.

[vonny]

some interesting things to consider here, thanks.

 

duck, what do you consider to be a "crappy nyc school" just wondering

 

ill be talking to some of my teachers in the near future about these things as well but i know this board is full of knowledge so it wouldnt hurt to ask

[vonny]

mlk, what do you think are the top public schools for mfa painting?

[ismewilde]

vonny,

 

you can see a rating system here:

 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-fine-arts-schools/painting-drawing-rankings

 

which include some public universities

 

Also, another consideration is whether or not you are a good fit into their specific program, so it is important to thoroughly research each program you are interested in, and if you can manage a visit in the fall to some MFA days at the schools that seem to fit your own specific requirements and style then you should do so as you will likely find that to be very helpful in your research

[mlk]

mlk, what do you think are the top public schools for mfa painting?

hunter

rutgers

uic

vcu

ucla

I have friends whose art I like that are scattered around the uc schools aside from ucla

indiana bloomington if you are a super figurative realist painter

I hear good things about u t austin

I'm sure there are others

[vonny]

gotcha gotcha. ive been doing some geo stuff for a while now but picked up a brush for the first time in over a year a couple weeks ago...

 

mikevanmeter.tumblr.com

 

take a peek n scroll thru. continuing this bottle series (real fun to pump them out)

[somacht]

I'm a painting student now and will be applying to MFA programs for admission Fall 2016. I'm trying to edit my list down to fewer schools.

Between UCLA and Cal Arts which would you apply to/ choose and why?

Between UIC and U of Chicago DOVA which would you choose/apply to and why?

Thanks!!

-Sofia

[Milkyways]

I plan on teaching and I guess my choices were both related to solid academic bases and critical view points and good funding (I'll choose the program which offers me the best mix). I'd say you need to find something in between your possibilities and your ambitions.