Turning Down PhD for MA?

[jjwaq]

Tufts is a great program, but placement rankings should not be your only concern. Some at Tufts see the program as a guarantee that they will be admitted to a top-15; I promise you that it will guarantee you nothing. Although Tufts gives most students a better shot, their PhD placement this year is not turning out to be as successful as it has been in years past. Note also that Tufts gives very bad financial aid compared to other MA programs--this problem is exacerbated by the high cost of living in the Boston area. Many students also think that they will take advantage of the other philosophy programs in the area (Harvard, MIT, Brandeis, etc.), but few actually do. 

 

I recommend Tufts to anyone who can afford it, but please do not see it as a silver bullet for PhD admissions.

[PhiPhiPhi]

So I was just admitted to Tufts for the terminal MA. I'm under the impression that they have very good placement, and I'm back to my question of whether or not I should attempt to get into better phd programs by going the MA route first. Any additional thoughts on this would be welcome! thanks

If you don't already have a ton of loans from undergrad and don't mind delaying your career by two years, I'd seriously consider Tufts. I sometimes wish that I had done an MA after undergrad, despite being somewhat successful at the PhD route.

[Pheminism]

MeonticDodals, thanks for your advice. I should clarify...I didn't mean to imply that merely the credential of the Toronto M.A. would get me into a high ranked Ph.D, but rather, as you say, the M.A. at U of T would give me another year to become a better philosopher under some great professors, and would give me the opportunity to get letters from some of them. If I choose to attend Toronto (or Western for just the M.A., which is also an option), it will be with the plan of taking another year off afterwards (as I've done this year after my B.A.) and applying to Ph.D programs for entrance in Fall 2016.

My dilemma was more concerning whether I should just go with the Ph.D offer I have on the table now, or do a one year M.A. with the intention of improving my abilities/letters/GREs and my chances in another cycle. 

 

It's true that another drawback would be that the M.A. would require taking more time off, but as long as I remain current and try to stay engaged, one or two years off from school doesn't seem like that much in the long run to me. Does that make sense?

 

Do let us know what you decide to do!

[philosophe]

Hey friends, bumping this thread because my situation just got more interesting. I received a surprising and generous tuition scholarship from tufts, knocking the price down to something very affordable. So, I'm back to square one over whether or not I should go the risky MA route or the immediate phd route. I keep waiting to have all of the information before I decide, but every turn of events has just made it that much more difficult. As always, I'd be happy to hear what any of you would do in my situation!

[xypathos]

What are your PhD offers? I see you have Rochester and UoI unlisted as far as degree, while the others specifically listed as a M*.

 

So, are Rochester and UoI your PhD offers?

 

I did most of my UG in Iowa at a small LAC and spent an insane amount of time in Iowa City. I miss the city immensely. That said, their placement results, frankly, suck. For me personally, I'd love to be teaching wherever and would prefer to teach over research/extensive writing. So, while I might be ok with their placement, you very well might not be.

 

Rochester's placement looks to be about the same quality, perhaps less since I only recognized two schools (subjective, I know).

[MattDest]

Hey friends, bumping this thread because my situation just got more interesting. I received a surprising and generous tuition scholarship from tufts, knocking the price down to something very affordable. So, I'm back to square one over whether or not I should go the risky MA route or the immediate phd route. I keep waiting to have all of the information before I decide, but every turn of events has just made it that much more difficult. As always, I'd be happy to hear what any of you would do in my situation!

 

Does this mean you have to pay out of pocket for Tufts? I didn't know they admitted students without aid. Tufts places their students into excellent PhD programs, so I don't think it's that big of a risk. I would still definitely consider going to a PhD program and then perhaps applying out from there. The positives of this plan are that you aren't losing money on an MA, and you have long term security in case the application season doesn't go your way. 

[deverettf]

MattDest brings up a good point--is it possible that you can transfer from the PhD program you'd attend to a better program?  Is it likely? And how much better?  (Perhaps it would be difficult to find out about this--presumably, it's a bit tactless, and probably strategically poor, to ask the PhD departments directly how often people do this.)

 

That said, Tufts has a proven track record, and it is likely (though by no means guaranteed) that you'll be offered admission to better programs coming out of Tufts.  If I were in your position, and it were affordable for me, I'd probably choose Tufts.

[Edit_Undo]

If I were in your position, and it were affordable for me, I'd probably choose Tufts.

 

I agree!

[Establishment]

MattDest brings up a good point--is it possible that you can transfer from the PhD program you'd attend to a better program?  Is it likely? And how much better?  (Perhaps it would be difficult to find out about this--presumably, it's a bit tactless, and probably strategically poor, to ask the PhD departments directly how often people do this.)

 

That said, Tufts has a proven track record, and it is likely (though by no means guaranteed) that you'll be offered admission to better programs coming out of Tufts.  If I were in your position, and it were affordable for me, I'd probably choose Tufts.

 

There's a semi-famous kid, Errol Lord, who went to Nebraska for two years as a PhD student out from undergrad instead of one of the MA programs he was admitted to, and after the two years at Nebraska (effectively picking up an MA) he transferred to Princeton. Back when this occurred he spoke about his experience and had nothing but good things to say about Nebraska's support for him and his decision.

 

EDIT: And now apparently he's tenure track at U Penn because he's more balling than NBA-Jesus.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Establishment

[deverettf]

There's a semi-famous kid, Errol Lord, who went to Nebraska for two years as a PhD student out from undergrad instead of one of the MA programs he was admitted to, and after the two years at Nebraska (effectively picking up an MA) he transferred to Princeton. Back when this occurred he spoke about his experience and had nothing but good things to say about Nebraska's support for him and his decision.

 

EDIT: And now apparently he's tenure track at U Penn because he's more balling than NBA-Jesus.

That said, Errol Lord has a proven track record, and it is likely, nay, guaranteed that you'll be offered admission to better programs being Errol Lord.  If I were in your position, and it were possible for me, I'd probably choose to be Errol Lord.

[philosophe]

What are your PhD offers? I see you have Rochester and UoI unlisted as far as degree, while the others specifically listed as a M*.

 

So, are Rochester and UoI your PhD offers?

 

I did most of my UG in Iowa at a small LAC and spent an insane amount of time in Iowa City. I miss the city immensely. That said, their placement results, frankly, suck. For me personally, I'd love to be teaching wherever and would prefer to teach over research/extensive writing. So, while I might be ok with their placement, you very well might not be.

 

Rochester's placement looks to be about the same quality, perhaps less since I only recognized two schools (subjective, I know).

 

Yeah, those are my two Phd offers. Iowa and Rochester both have good reps for epistemology. They're placement is similar in that they place people but not in big name schools. Trying to decide if I should play it safe or follow my ambition.

[philosophe]

Does this mean you have to pay out of pocket for Tufts? I didn't know they admitted students without aid. Tufts places their students into excellent PhD programs, so I don't think it's that big of a risk. I would still definitely consider going to a PhD program and then perhaps applying out from there. The positives of this plan are that you aren't losing money on an MA, and you have long term security in case the application season doesn't go your way. 

 

It's my understanding that Tufts generally does not give support, so I was very pleasantly surprised. It seems like I would pay out of pocked a minimal amount (say, less than a fourth of the tuition), and then I would be able to make that amount back from TAing.

 

Part of me sees it as a great opportunity, and the other party of me is worried about the additional two years. If the Phd takes 5/6 years, then that would be a total of 7/8, which would require some serious stamina. 

[philosophe]

MattDest brings up a good point--is it possible that you can transfer from the PhD program you'd attend to a better program?  Is it likely? And how much better?  (Perhaps it would be difficult to find out about this--presumably, it's a bit tactless, and probably strategically poor, to ask the PhD departments directly how often people do this.)

 

That said, Tufts has a proven track record, and it is likely (though by no means guaranteed) that you'll be offered admission to better programs coming out of Tufts.  If I were in your position, and it were affordable for me, I'd probably choose Tufts.

 

I don't really feel comfortable taking a Phd offer with intent to transfer. It seems kind of in poor taste to me, to take someone's support and then leave. (Unless there's a very good reason). If I think I'm going to be unhappy there, I'd rather go somewhere else in the first place.

 

Tufts is definitely more of a viable option now that this scholarship is involved, but i'd still be adding two years of my life. Also, I heard their placement was mixed this year.

 

Thanks all, your opinions are very helpful. It's nice when the internet gives general consensus! I'm going to investigate that further. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by philosophe

[ianfaircloud]

I have a lot to say about this. I've not read the thread, but I'd like to chime in anyway.

 

If you're asking yourself whether to turn down a PhD offer for the MA, then my guess is that many of you have already decided and are looking for permission. I give you my permission to turn down the PhD offer for the MA offer. 

 

Two years ago, I turned down a $100,000 offer from a decent PhD program in order to attend a T-7 Master's program. Though I ultimately failed in admissions, I really, truly don't regret the decision to try the master's program. Years from now, I'll know that I gave this my best shot. Also, for me, I aimed very high and was only willing to attend programs with really good placement records. That's because I hope to have a family fairly soon, and I can't afford not to have a reasonable amount of security. (I realize there's some contradiction here. Philosophy is never secure. But what I mean is that "better" schools often bring more security.)

 

I think the answer to the question really depends on who's asking the question. If you're someone who will be disappointed by a Rochester or a Syracuse or a Florida State, then I'm not here to judge you. I'll say this: very, very good people attend these programs and have great careers, which is why so many people on this forum, who I have come to respect, are excited about their offers to these schools. But I, too, was disappointed by a fully-funded offer to a decent program.

 

Here are some things to consider:

• Do you have the time and money to devote to more years in school? Unless the MA is like a Georgia State (where you get $15k + tuition waiver), then the MA will be an investment of both time and money. If you're 28 years old and want to have a family in the next five years, then the MA may be too risky.
• Will you be disappointed by not giving it a shot? And if you give it a shot and don't do any better, will you think you made a mistake? Or will you think, as I do, that you are glad that you at least gave it the very best shot possible?
• Do you have another career in mind, in case you don't end up in philosophy? This is relevant. For me, I think knowing that law would be a backup actually made my failure this season a lot more bearable.
• Have you visited the PhD program to which you were admitted? How good did you feel about it?
• What's your ultimate goal? Is the T-20 really important to you, as it seems to be to a lot of people? Do you want a research job someday? Is that your dream? Are you giving up that dream by attending this PhD program?

I have a lot of trouble making big decisions. My significant other sent the email to my T-7 master's program to accept the offer of admission, because I couldn't do it. I felt so bad turning down other good offers. 

 

One thing that helps is to ask myself whether I just need permission to do what I want to do. Unless there are high stakes -- a spouse, children, livelihood -- then doing what you truly want to do may be worth it. But if you're putting other people or yourself at risk, say by taking on an immense amount of debt, then that may change things for you. Of course, if you're pursuing philosophy, you've already taken on a risk.

 

Another thing that helps: Make a decision, and tell someone important to you. Start planning as if the decision is made. How do you feel, now that you made your decision? 

 

So my answer is heavily psychological, but I think it has to be. I don't think there's a formula to answer this question.

[ianfaircloud]

I recommend Tufts to anyone who can afford it, but please do not see it as a silver bullet for PhD admissions.

 

Ditto for other T-7 master's programs. Sometimes the T-7 progs just attract people who would have done well at non T-7 progs. But of course, surrounding yourself with others like you -- that's worth something.

Edited March 21, 2014 by ianfaircloud