Anyone else sick of whiny graduate students?

[Igotnothin]

I get more annoyed by people saying things like "I love grad school, why would you even go to grad school if you don't absolutely love every single second of it, if you don't like a class maybe you shouldn't be in grad school," blah blah blah blah. Almost as annoyed as when people say things like "Obviously we're not in it for the money." Why is that obvious, when PhD's make more money than BS's and MS"s? Doesn't make any sense.

[overworkedta]

I think because, for those of us who hope for academic employment, the hours are not on par with the pay (at least in an entry-level position).  If I went into the public or private sector with my PhD, I would make about twice as much at a research analyst job than I would doing a NUMBER of adjunct positions.  That's why people say it's about the love of the job.  And, truly, my love of teaching and focusing on my own research interests is what DOES drive me and it makes up for all the long hours and crappy pay.

 

In the hard sciences where this is less prevalent (and many are going to take jobs outside of academia as a norm), it's just not the same.  My friend's boyfriend sees grad school as far more of a "means to an end" because he's in physics and seeking a PhD so he can move into the private sector.  For she and I, though, a PhD is more like a lifestyle choice, if that makes sense?

[bsharpe269]

I think because, for those of us who hope for academic employment, the hours are not on par with the pay (at least in an entry-level position). If I went into the public or private sector with my PhD, I would make about twice as much at a research analyst job than I would doing a NUMBER of adjunct positions. That's why people say it's about the love of the job. And, truly, my love of teaching and focusing on my own research interests is what DOES drive me and it makes up for all the long hours and crappy pay.

In the hard sciences where this is less prevalent (and many are going to take jobs outside of academia as a norm), it's just not the same. My friend's boyfriend sees grad school as far more of a "means to an end" because he's in physics and seeking a PhD so he can move into the private sector. For she and I, though, a PhD is more like a lifestyle choice, if that makes sense?

This is very well said. Also, it's not always true that phd pays more than MS. In my field, a masters and job in industry pays around the same as I'll probably make after I finish both my phd and postdoc(s). These industry jobs also have higher long term earning potential. I think that In many fields, getting into academia pays no where the same a a masters and industry job would. I am in bioinformatics so there are great BS and MS opportunities in drug companies. This would also be true of fields like engineering or CS. So even if people find it annoying to hear, of course I'm not getting a phd for money! If I wanted money id be out the door with my ms with a well paying bioinformatics programmer or database job.

[overworkedta]

Yep.

 

I have a friend that has decided to terminate with a Master's and I think he may have just located a very good government job that will pay about 4 times as much as he currently makes as a TA.

[bakalamba]

Wow, lots of responses to my comment. It's an interesting debate. I agree with randomness, there's a difference between being annoyed with someone in class not making much of a contribution and requiring students to be passionate or put in more effort than they already are. When you're in a grad seminar in the social sciences, and only a few people are doing the talking, it sucks - it's boring. Perhaps it's different in STEM fields, but in the field of Education there's a lot of outside information and experience students can bring into the program, whether their interest is academics or professional. I'm equally annoyed by those with ivory tower claustrophobia who are advocate overarching theory without a real understanding of what takes place in schools. Most people I meet are pretty great about bridging both. And in this field, passion is not necessarily required, but there is a big emphasis in it - would you really want someone running a school, a non-profit, or doing educational research who doesn't care? And really, these aren't top paying jobs, anyways.

 

It's ironic that the grad who annoyed me the most with their lack of passion and critical thinking were the ones most interested in academics - I guess they were chasing the fabled ivory tower sinecure. Certainly everyone has their own reasons for pursuing graduate school, and I have great respect for those who get a degree to further their careers, as many that I've met have made great contributions to schools and organizations in the U.S. and abroad, but I don't see the point of getting a PhD (with minimal funding, as well) just to have the degree.

 

I agree that balance is crucial: I certainly don't like going to happy hour with other grads and have conversations limited to the technical requirements of the program. 

 

I agree it certainly would be naive and elitist to require extra work or fake passion from students. However, it's equally naive to interpret a vent as a formal recipe for social policy, or how graduate schools should be organized. TakeruK, you have a valid argument, but it's not with me - I'm just complaining here. I couldn't care less about people's passions (passion about everything, not just the limited scope of their graduate field) - it just makes them poor drinking buddies and classmates.

Edited May 7, 2014 by bakalamba

[juilletmercredi]

In Gregory Colon Semenza's book Graduate Study for the Twenty-First Century, he actually writes about this - he characterizes several types of graduate students and professors, and the complainer is a type.  There are certain people who connect to others through complaining, and still others who are just negative and pessimistic all the time.

Just smile and nod and avoid them.  Or better yet, be relentlessly positive and sunny with them.  Once they realize that you won't complain with them AND will bring some sunshine to their complain parade, they usually leave you alone.

 

On the other hand, I do tend to get annoyed when a person complains about everyone else complaining every time they complain, even a normal amount of venting. First of all, you are doing exactly what you hate.  Second of all, everyone needs to vent sometimes.

[bakalamba]

In Gregory Colon Semenza's book Graduate Study for the Twenty-First Century, he actually writes about this - he characterizes several types of graduate students and professors, and the complainer is a type.  There are certain people who connect to others through complaining, and still others who are just negative and pessimistic all the time.

 

This is an important distinction. Shared complaints - that's fundamentally social and may point to something in the program or University that's fundamentally flawed, particularly if everyone complains about it. People who are alone with their complaints, or constantly negative, I see how that's annoying.

 

I think it's also annoying when there's a disconnect between complaints and action - are you just going to continue complaining about something, or actually do something about it? And sometimes the best thing to do is just to suck it up.

[12345678900987654321]

Yes, almost daily but I get paid for it so...

[Scarf in the wind]

Isn't this a thread full of whiny grad students complaining about grad school?

 

Give the man, or woman, a medal. Concise summary of this thread.

[Sigaba]

In a related note, even though there's nothing wrong with going to grad school "for the money", is it in one's best interest to fake passion? For example, I'm starting grad school in the fall in a computational field. I got into the computational field because I started looking into jobs over a year ago when I was still doing the non- computational version and the pay was pathetic. So I busted my ass doing math, science and programming the next two years. Is it bad to admit that? I'm sure I'll be asked why I got into the field when I start my program in the fall. Well, that's why. I actually kinda hate technology.

 

MOO, you would do well to keep your pragmatic approach to yourself. There's nothing wrong with your motivation as long as it works for you.  However, you may run into true believers/crusaders who believe that everyone should share their passion and have the ability to screw over those who don't and/or gravitate and support students who are equally committed.

 

IMO, you should not fake passion nor allow others to draw the mistaken conclusion that you're passionate about your field. You might find yourself in a situations where others misread you and then feel that you've burned them and conclude that you were jerking them around and not taking them seriously the whole time. (You have a quirky sense of humor that makes you especially vulnerable to this perception.)

 

What you can do is figure what to say that defines your motivation. For example, you might say that you're motivated to learn, that you want to do well, and that you want to make contributions that expand the field of knowledge.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

MOO, you would do well to keep your pragmatic approach to yourself. There's nothing wrong with your motivation as long as it works for you.  However, you may run into true believers/crusaders who believe that everyone should share their passion and have the ability to screw over those who don't and/or gravitate and support students who are equally committed.

 

IMO, you should not fake passion nor allow others to draw the mistaken conclusion that you're passionate about your field. You might find yourself in a situations where others misread you and then feel that you've burned them and conclude that you were jerking them around and not taking them seriously the whole time. (You have a quirky sense of humor that makes you especially vulnerable to this perception.)

 

What you can do is figure what to say that defines your motivation. For example, you might say that you're motivated to learn, that you want to do well, and that you want to make contributions that expand the field of knowledge.

I made that post a while ago so I'm not sure if my feelings have changed. It's true that I came into the computational field because there were no good jobs for monolingual linguists in Miami and what I enjoyed the most about linguistics was geared more toward academia. However, I do really enjoy programming now that I've started a little over a year ago. So I definitely enjoy the field. But I view programming as more of a tool. I'm a linguist first-and-foremost, but I have the ability to program and knowledge of complex math so I'm able to do things that other linguists probably aren't. But my ultimate goal is the same as other non-computational linguists. I do really enjoy programming though and I would probably take a computational job that's not in linguistics if that's all I could find. But I definitely don't share a passion for technology that I noticed lots of computer science majors at my undergrad had. I don't read articles about the latest technology and know about all the little intricate details of technology. I don't think I'll ever care that much. It just doesn't interest me. But that doesn't mean I can't became as good (or better) a programmer as them.