GRE death

[Infinite Zest]

Hey online friends,

 

I just finished taking the GRE. Ughh, I'm feeling exhausted and a little bit let down by my scores:

 

165 verbal and 160 quant.

 

I know they aren't BAD scores, but I was doing a lot better on ETS practice tests, especially in math.

 

Do you guys think I should retake the test? I really had a miserable time studying for it, but I may retake it if I have to. Do you think these scores will hurt me when applying to top philosophy programs?

[dgswaim]

Hey online friends,

 

I just finished taking the GRE. Ughh, I'm feeling exhausted and a little bit let down by my scores:

 

165 verbal and 160 quant.

 

I know they aren't BAD scores, but I was doing a lot better on ETS practice tests, especially in math.

 

Do you guys think I should retake the test? I really had a miserable time studying for it, but I may retake it if I have to. Do you think these scores will hurt me when applying to top philosophy programs?

I see no reason to retake. More than respectable scores. 

[MorganFreemanlives]

oh man, dont get me excited like that. with a title of that i thought you meant most or all the graduate philosophy programs said screw you GRE this year.

 

165 an 160 is very solid. i wount retake.

[Gnothi_Seauton]

Hey online friends,

 

I just finished taking the GRE. Ughh, I'm feeling exhausted and a little bit let down by my scores:

 

165 verbal and 160 quant.

 

I know they aren't BAD scores, but I was doing a lot better on ETS practice tests, especially in math.

 

Do you guys think I should retake the test? I really had a miserable time studying for it, but I may retake it if I have to. Do you think these scores will hurt me when applying to top philosophy programs?

I wouldn't bother with taking it again.  My GRE quant score was only 1 point higher than yours, and 1 point isn't meaningful.  And 165 verbal is perfectly respectable.  For an applicant with your background, the names on your letters (as long as the letters are enthusiastic) and your writing sample will be what really catches the attention of the admissions committees.  

[ianfaircloud]

Every month or so, there's a post on this forum about GRE scores, whether to retake, how important they are, and other things. These are great chances to discuss particular scores and to get some personal encouragement or feedback. In the meantime, do check the other posts on the forum related to this. Last season, we had fruitful discussions on the importance of GRE scores.

 

As someone who scored very well and who teaches GRE for a national test-prep company, I maintain this position: most departments, whether they acknowledge it, do roughly use score cutoffs; but once an applicant survives this cut, the scores become almost irrelevant. These cutoffs aren't particularly high for most departments, from what we can see. We have a lot of data on this. Check out the results of the comprehensive survey, and do a quick glance through the history on the grad cafe results search. We learned last season that people are fairly honest about these things on grad cafe. (For brevity's sake, I won't elaborate here.)

 

Here are a few qualifications of the above. I know from personal experience (first-hand knowledge of an actual department's process) that departments are not as predictable as we would like them to be. Sometimes an applicant's file falls into the hands of one or two professors who have very unusual criteria by which they evaluate the file. Some professors, in complete seriousness, do not know how to read GRE results. For instance, professors add the verbal and quantitative scores together to form some kind of super-score. This is a horribly flawed way of evaluating an applicant's GRE scores, and in fact, ETS has warned about this before. Still other professors attach no weight to GRE scores or, perhaps worse, weigh the scores heavily. I know this from personal contact with people on admissions committees. But it's also evidenced in the way that some departments boast about their students' GRE scores.

 

Another caveat: Master's programs may treat the scores differently, on account of their belief that scores make a difference in PhD admissions. Again, from personal contact, a professor once told me that, for this very reason, she thinks it's a bad idea for a master's program to ignore GRE scores.

 

If there's a cutoff, what's the cutoff? Roughly, I think scores in the 160s look good on paper. I think a very high score on one test area (e.g. a 168-170) can distract from a modest score of upper-150s on the other area. If you've tried very hard and are sitting roughly in the low 160s, I probably wouldn't retake, unless you feel like you have extra time on your hands. As I write this, I assume that many of you could devote your time to improving a writing sample or impressing a letter-writer, which could be time-better-spent.

[Infinite Zest]

I think I'm gonna stick with these scores. I might have overreacted a bit... the scores were just a bit lower than I expected.

 

Thanks for the great input everyone!

Edited August 6, 2014 by Infinite Zest

[YoungR3b3l]

I really wish this topic is a joke, I wouldve accepted it with a smile.

A 165 V 160 Q and asking for a retake? Have you ever seen/heard that those scores are moderate/low/less than average to ask for a retake?

Please, if your were acknowledged by any source that considering a retake is better, refer me to that source so I can lecture him/her the bases of logic.

Edited August 7, 2014 by YoungR3b3l

[Infinite Zest]

I really wish this topic is a joke, I wouldve accepted it with a smile.

A 165 V 160 Q and asking for a retake? Have you ever seen/heard that those scores are moderate/low/less than average to ask for a retake?

Please, if your were acknowledged by any source that considering a retake is better, refer me to that source so I can lecture him/her the bases of logic.

 

Like I said, I was probably overreacting. On that note, a 165 verbal does seem to be a bit below average for a top PhD program. Am I mistaken here? UChicago reports an average of 710 on verbal (167 new score). Sure, 2 points isn't a big difference, but a 165 still doesn't seem to be a score to boast about.

 

As far as the quantitative score goes, I guess I'm just frustrated because I was scoring around 166 on ETS practice tests.

[perpetuavix]

It turns out GRE verbal likely matters more than the quant score anyway: http://perpetuavix.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/philosophy-admissions-survey-what-determines-success/ and your verbal score is the 95th percentile, which is an excellent score. I wouldn't retake it, unless you get a terrible (>3.0) writing score. 

[MorganFreemanlives]

this brings up a question though, what is the minimium decent score in the math section as to not warrant concern that it may work against you

[Infinite Zest]

this brings up a question though, what is the minimium decent score in the math section as to not warrant concern that it may work against you

 

Although I can't really answer this question, I will say that I thought GRE math was a lot more straightforward/more enjoyable to study than GRE verbal. Also, GRE math can be improved much more easily than, say, reading comprehension, in my opinion. Of course, all this info might be irrelevant to you. (You're not taking the GRE, right?)

[perpetuavix]

this brings up a question though, what is the minimium decent score in the math section as to not warrant concern that it may work against you

There were about 3 people who got less than the 50th percentile on the math section who got into top 50 schools (although all were in the 21-50 range), out of 9 people who reported scores in that range. 6 out of 11 people who scored in the 50th-59th percentile got at least 1 acceptance or waitlist at a top 20, and 3 more in the top 50. All of these applicants had 80th+ percentile verbal scores, though. 

[MorganFreemanlives]

Although I can't really answer this question, I will say that I thought GRE math was a lot more straightforward/more enjoyable to study than GRE verbal. Also, GRE math can be improved much more easily than, say, reading comprehension, in my opinion. Of course, all this info might be irrelevant to you. (You're not taking the GRE, right?)

yes im not taking it, but they are some days where my ambition wins over my principles, and i entertain the idea. but then i realize even if i accepted paying 150 to takea test whose existence for philosophy applicants offends me, the thought of having to PAY to send my scores to more than 4 universities is where i draw the line. so i must pay the people who coerced me to  pay the equivalent of 3 applications to take the test  and fee of 27 dollars per place to prove to universities i paid you guys too much money and took your test seriously? and if i have any reservations to this insanity i deserve to be shut out for not obeying directions?

 

if i had the leadership skills, and philosophy folks werent as dispassionately rational. a massive gre boycott would be in order, dozens sending some note To places that require the test, like im part of AOTT (Association of opposers   of trivial testing) in their admissions app and claiming they refuse such suspicious tests to determine their fate and that since at least  good 50-100 of the applicants send the AOTT note.we would have lots of coverage, leiter reports would link an article and multiple institutions would drop the gre by popular demand in the foreseeable future.

 

sigh a man can dream. sadly this would never happen as 1. this would require at least 1 or 2 years of dozens of applicants likely forfeiting possible admissions and glutting the few non gre places 2. we live in de-principled times, we dont care about lost causes or only potentially possible changes and 3. this is exactly like the train robbery situation from william james. if everyone of us applicants rose against the oppressor which is admission folks holding us on the pretext that if you dont turn in your gre scores we will toss your application , then the train robbery would be stopped. the problem, never does everyone or even most or half rise to the occasion and the few mavericks that do will be shot down.

 

nothing will change, the ETS Monopoly will remain and we might as audition for a new version of pink floyd's the wall video, but instead of being grinded to sausages like in the music video, its gre scores going to a trash can.

Edited August 7, 2014 by HegelHatingHegelian

[Infinite Zest]

yes im not taking it, but they are some days where my ambition wins over my principles, and i entertain the idea. but then i realize even if i accepted paying 150 to takea test whose existence for philosophy applicants offends me, the thought of having to PAY to send my scores to more than 4 universities is where i draw the line. so i must pay the people who coerced me to  pay the equivalent of 3 applications to take the test  and fee of 27 dollars per place to prove to universities i paid you guys too much money and took your test seriously? and if i have any reservations to this insanity i deserve to be shut out for not obeying directions?

 

if i had the leadership skills, and philosophy folks werent as dispassionately rational. a massive gre boycott would be in order, dozens sending some note To places that require the test, like im part of AOTT (Association of opposers   of trivial testing) in their admissions app and claiming they refuse such suspicious tests to determine their fate and that since at least  good 50-100 of the applicants send the AOTT note.we would have lots of coverage, leiter reports would link an article and multiple institutions would drop the gre by popular demand in the foreseeable future.

 

sigh a man can dream. sadly this would never happen as 1. this would require at least 1 or 2 years of dozens of applicants likely forfeiting possible admissions and glutting the few non gre places 2. we live in de-principled times, we dont care about lost causes or only potentially possible changes and 3. this is exactly like the train robbery situation from william james. if everyone of us applicants rose against the oppressor which is admission folks holding us on the pretext that if you dont turn in your gre scores we will toss your application , then the train robbery would be stopped. the problem, never does everyone or even most or half rise to the occasion and the few mavericks that do will be shot down.

 

nothing will change, the ETS Monopoly will remain and we might as audition for a new version of pink floyd's the wall video, but instead of being grinded to sausages like in the music video, its gre scores going to a trash can.

 

Whoa.

[Gnothi_Seauton]

In this past season, one guy got into Texas (PGR rank 20) and Wisconsin (PGR rank 22) with a GRE quant score of 145 (Verbal score of 161).  Granted, his undergrad was from NYU, but you should have similar caliber letters.  I really don't think any decision would come down to your GRE scores, particularly when your scores are solid. 

[ianfaircloud]

In this past season, one guy got into Texas (PGR rank 20) and Wisconsin (PGR rank 22) with a GRE quant score of 145 (Verbal score of 161).  Granted, his undergrad was from NYU, but you should have similar caliber letters.  I really don't think any decision would come down to your GRE scores, particularly when your scores are solid. 

 

I think I agree with the sentiment here, but I'll add this: Certainly some admission decisions do come down to GRE scores. Absolutely some departments use cut-offs. But I hear Gnothi_Seauton's sentiment as, "Look, when your scores are even decent, it's very unlikely that your application will be set aside because of your scores." Of course not everyone will apply with decent scores.

 

If I earned a 145 on quant and believed that I could score much better with practice, then I would absolutely retake the GRE. Philosophy students score very high on the GRE, so a 145 is a black eye on an applicant. Fortunately, many departments are thoughtful enough to read deeply into an applicant's file, as was the case for this success story, above. As Gnothi_Seauton points out, this success story comes from someone who attended NYU.

[Gnothi_Seauton]

I think I agree with the sentiment here, but I'll add this: Certainly some admission decisions do come down to GRE scores. Absolutely some departments use cut-offs. But I hear Gnothi_Seauton's sentiment as, "Look, when your scores are even decent, it's very unlikely that your application will be set aside because of your scores." Of course not everyone will apply with decent scores.

 

If I earned a 145 on quant and believed that I could score much better with practice, then I would absolutely retake the GRE. Philosophy students score very high on the GRE, so a 145 is a black eye on an applicant. Fortunately, many departments are thoughtful enough to read deeply into an applicant's file, as was the case for this success story, above. As Gnothi_Seauton points out, this success story comes from someone who attended NYU.

I agree with what you said, but I think your reading only captures part of my point (my fault for not being clearer):  If you are on a department's short list (maybe one of their top 20 candidates or so), then your GRE scores become almost meaningless.  Any distinctions made between candidates at this point will come down to letters and writing sample.  However (and this is your reading of my point), I do think it's the case that having solid GRE scores is important (though perhaps not necessary, as the example of the guy from NYU shows) for making it to that short list.  My point for Infinite Zest's case is that 165V/160Q is more than sufficient to make it on the short list at top places, as long as everything else in the file is really good.  

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

I think I agree with the sentiment here, but I'll add this: Certainly some admission decisions do come down to GRE scores. Absolutely some departments use cut-offs. But I hear Gnothi_Seauton's sentiment as, "Look, when your scores are even decent, it's very unlikely that your application will be set aside because of your scores." Of course not everyone will apply with decent scores.

 

If I earned a 145 on quant and believed that I could score much better with practice, then I would absolutely retake the GRE. Philosophy students score very high on the GRE, so a 145 is a black eye on an applicant. Fortunately, many departments are thoughtful enough to read deeply into an applicant's file, as was the case for this success story, above. As Gnothi_Seauton points out, this success story comes from someone who attended NYU.

This is what what is so terrifying- what if they don't even bother with reading your letters of rec or your writing sample if your GRE scores are atrocious? I would imagine that coming from NYU perhaps ameliorated the effects of the GRE and maybe that's why they did look further into the rest of the dossier. I just took the GRE for the second time- literally all of my practice tests were coming out much better than my original test- the original was 143 quant 158 verbal; the practice tests 148-151 quant (I know still poor but at least an improvement) and 160-162 verbal. I ended up scoring 145 quant and 157 verbal- I have no idea what happened- I felt fine during the test, and here I went down on the verbal. The rest of my application I believe to be stellar aside from the fact I come from a small, unknown college and these blasted GREs. I am terrified at this point frankly.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Nastasya_Filippovna

[Infinite Zest]

This is what what is so terrifying- what if they don't even bother with reading your letters of rec or your writing sample if your GRE scores are atrocious? I would imagine that coming from NYU perhaps ameliorated the effects of the GRE and maybe that's why they did look further into the rest of the dossier. I just took the GRE for the second time- literally all of my practice tests were coming out much better than my original test- the original was 143 quant 158 verbal; the practice tests 148-151 quant (I know still poor but at least an improvement) and 160-162 verbal. I ended up scoring 145 quant and 157 verbal- I have no idea what happened- I felt fine during the test, and here I went down on the verbal. The rest of my application I believe to be stellar aside from the fact I come from a small, unknown college and these blasted GREs. I am terrified at this point frankly.

 

Have you tried Magoosh or Manhattan for prep? I found all other companies useless.

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

Have you tried Magoosh or Manhattan for prep? I found all other companies useless.

I did Magoosh and Kaplan and took practice tests from Magoosh, Kaplan, Manhattan, Barron and ETS, all with those same higher practice scores! That's why I was absolutely incredulous at my results! And if there had been some extenuating circumstances that I knew explained the scores then fine, but there werent. I've always done awful on standardized testing- timed tests are not my forte, nor are tests that aren't essay tests. Quant is easy to explain- I am terribly challenged with math and simply need copious amounts of time so succeed, and as far as verbal goes- I overthink. I did poorly on the SAT as well. However, I'm baffled as to why I didn't get the mediocre scores I at least thought I would receive. I believe I am capable of a 160. I am retaking this monster again. One last time because of the score select option so I have nothing to lose. If I yet again don't improve then it is what it is. 

[Infinite Zest]

I did Magoosh and Kaplan and took practice tests from Magoosh, Kaplan, Manhattan, Barron and ETS, all with those same higher practice scores! That's why I was absolutely incredulous at my results! And if there had been some extenuating circumstances that I knew explained the scores then fine, but there werent. I've always done awful on standardized testing- timed tests are not my forte, nor are tests that aren't essay tests. Quant is easy to explain- I am terribly challenged with math and simply need copious amounts of time so succeed, and as far as verbal goes- I overthink. I did poorly on the SAT as well. However, I'm baffled as to why I didn't get the mediocre scores I at least thought I would receive. I believe I am capable of a 160. I am retaking this monster again. One last time because of the score select option so I have nothing to lose. If I yet again don't improve then it is what it is. 

 

Have you considered meditation?

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/how-meditation-might-boost-your-test-scores/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

Have you considered meditation?

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/how-meditation-might-boost-your-test-scores/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Hey I will certainly give that a go, I have nothing to lose! The irony is that I excel under pressure- with the exception of these standardized tests, and this has been a life pattern, so meditation might assist. Thank you for the link! By the way, your resume is incredibly impressive- can I ask you what your topic is for your writing sample? Don't worry I won't steal! I already have mine written- just have to pick what section I'm using If you prefer not to tell I completely respect that!

[Infinite Zest]

Sure, I'll send you a message.

 

By the way, against my better judgement, I've decided to retake the GRE. I'll let you all know how it goes!

[MattDest]

Sure, I'll send you a message.

 

By the way, against my better judgement, I've decided to retake the GRE. I'll let you all know how it goes!

 

I was in your situation, and I ended up opting to retake as well. The statistics are pretty clear that most people don't test that much better on the re-try. I went up in V & AW, but down in Q. Good luck, but as someone who has been there, done that... I would suggest that your time might be better spent elsewhere. However, with the rest of your app being stellar, I don't imagine you will have too much difficulty getting into good programs.

[Infinite Zest]

Update (for anyone interested):

 

I retook the GRE today and ended up with a score 5 points higher, improving in both quant/verbal.

 

For anyone in a similar situation, I'd suggest retaking the test, especially if you were nervous the first time. I don't know if this grade bump will help at all, but I do know that when I get rejected to school X, I won't say to myself "if only you'd taken the GRE more seriously." That in itself was worth the effort, for me at least.