Academic placement rate of UChicago Psychology

[rolltheeurydice]

My goal in getting a PhD would be an academic career, and I’m curious to hear what people’s perceptions are on the UChicago Psychology program. I know that there are no definite answers to what I’m asking, but general impressions would be appreciated. It's not the only school I'm interested in but seems to be the most anomalous in terms of ranking well in overall rankings but not having a lot of "name brand recognition" (at least compared to others).

 

Based on what I’ve read (and witnessed), prestige does have a large influence on academic hiring (like it or not). If you go to Princeton, Yale or Harvard, you really need to mess things up to not get an academic job *somewhere* (if that’s your goal). My impression is that even the worst graduate students in these programs will be at a significant advantage when it comes to applying to jobs, even if their work is a bit unexciting.

 

I consider myself hardworking and intelligent, and have no intention of being lazy, but I would probably be an “average” graduate student at UChicago. My ultimate goal would be a tenure track position *somewhere*, not necessarily at a school as fancy or fancier than UChicago (in fact, there would be an appeal to returning to my hometown someday, which has a decent university but certainly not on the same level). My question is this: to what extent would the UChicago prestige provide a bit of a “buffer” against failing in this pursuit? I know that UChicago is a great school (it’s usually ranked around the top 10 worldwide; e.g., http://www.metauniversityranking.com/), but I know less about the prestige of the psychology program specifically (though I know it’s still at least reasonably high), and I also know less about how quickly the prestige drops off (are the top 10 programs more or less the same as the top 6, or is there a big difference? what about the top 6 and the top 20?).

 

Let me add that I know ultimately the most important thing is my work, but I have doubts about being the “rock star” that it seems necessary to be to get a job coming from a low-ranking school in this economic climate. So, assuming I do decent (but not necessarily revolutionary) work at UChicago, how much do you think the reputation would help for employment *somewhere*? One of my main concerns is that it seems almost no one in the general public thinks UChicago is a “very good school" (despite it consistently doing very well in rankings), so I wonder how much that carries over to the perceptions of faculty. Thanks for your responses.

[rolltheeurydice]

Sorry for double post, but anyone have any input on this?

[Applemiu]

Nobody can answer a question formulated this way. You are asking people to predict your future. How can I know whether the U of Chicago "brand" will help you finding a job assuming that you do "decent" work? If you have the impression that graduates of the "Big Three" can get jobs no matter what, then it's the wrong impression.

 

You should just look for a place where you have a good fit and that you are happy to attend. Then do your best work, and see what happens.

[rolltheeurydice]

Thanks for the reply Applemiu; I know that it's difficult to answer (which I mentioned), but I guess I'm just looking for reputational opinions, preferably from people in the field. I know there are no guarantees and I'm not asking anyone to predict the future, but I disagree that reputation doesn't matter a lot in academic hiring based on what I've observed (I'm not saying I agree with this, in fact I don't think it should have the influence that it does, but I'm trying to be a realist). Graduates coming from the "big three", as you call it, have an advantage that goes beyond how productive they are; this point is almost indisputable. I didn't mean to imply they are guaranteed jobs, but the cards are definitely stacked in their favor, and when the job market is as tough as it seems to be, I think it's unwise to discount the importance of repuation.

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

Question, if you'd be an "average" candidate at UChicago, are you saying you wouldn't be an "average" graduate student at a place like Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, etc? My university turned down people from Harvard and Princeton to hire a faculty member who received his PhD from UMass, and another who received his PhD from the University of Iowa. 

What's going to matter most is your productivity and what you contribute to your field. I'd take someone who changed the game at a community college over some who barely added anything to my field at Harvard , any day. 

Some of these things may often co-occur, that is to say game changers may come from really prestigious universities but the fact that they do doesn't mean that's the reason why the did so well in their research. What you need to worry about most, first is, making sure you're entering into a program/field where you'll obsess over your work. Then making sure you're going somewhere productive to your productivity. Is the lab funded, do you like the PI, do you like the other grad students. THEN all else being equal you may worry about prestige. 

[rolltheeurydice]

Fair enough, but this is basically what I'm saying. The people hired from UMass and Iowa were probably just incredible candidates, who would have done well most places and probably worked extremely hard to set themselves apart from the competition. I'm not saying this is not an admirable thing to strive for, but despite our best intentions our research doesn't always pan out how we expect. If you come from a more reputable school I get the impression that your margin for error is a bit wider in this respect, and the standards applied to your research program are a bit lower (even subconsciously). Part of this is just the ancillary things that come with a well-regarded program -- you probably have a strong network that would be an asset to the department, for example.

[rolltheeurydice]

I also want to add that the "just do your best and it will work out" mindset is somewhat dangerous and is part of the reason there is such a glut of PhDs and the job market is so hard right now. It might work out, but it might also not work out due to factors beyond your control, and how well a program is regarded is partial insurance against this possibility (not total insurance). I maintain this is true in academia, but this is even more apparent in places like law schools, where the school you go to is extremely predictive of where you'll get a job or if you'll get a job at all. Even really competent students who didn't do their research and go to lower ranked schools will be at a huge disadvantage. I would argue the same dynamics are at play in academia, to a lesser degree.

[tha1ne]

I also want to add that the "just do your best and it will work out" mindset is somewhat dangerous and is part of the reason there is such a glut of PhDs and the job market is so hard right now. It might work out, but it might also not work out due to factors beyond your control, and how well a program is regarded is partial insurance against this possibility (not total insurance). I maintain this is true in academia, but this is even more apparent in places like law schools, where the school you go to is extremely predictive of where you'll get a job or if you'll get a job at all. Even really competent students who didn't do their research and go to lower ranked schools will be at a huge disadvantage. I would argue the same dynamics are at play in academia, to a lesser degree.

It's true; I just starting watching the show Suits and that firm only hires from Harvard law!

[SallyHam]

If it helps, my adviser at UVA told me that UChicago did not have a good psych PhD program (this is social psych), but their behavioral science program, housed in the business school is great (it's full of great social psychologists that pretty much just study psychology). Chicago's Booth School of Business has an even better reputation, and offers a joint psychology & behavioral science PhD, so you can get 2 for 1!

[tlove72]

Q

[Chubberubber]

I don't have any clear data on this, but I would imagine that if you get your PhD from a prestigious program, but you're only "average" there, it would put you on par with someone who was excellent at a lower ranked program when it comes to applying for the same job. Thing is, if you're an average PhD candidate at a top program, there's a good chance you would have been a "rock star" at a lower ranked one (especially if that program was a better fit in terms of research interests) so ultimately- it doesn't matter. Go with the most prestigious pragram you feel like you could be successful in, and UChicago is a very prestigious school and their psychology department is home to one of the most prolific and original researchers in my field.

[juilletmercredi]

Someone a few days (weeks?) ago posted a scientific article in which some psychologists looked at job outcomes to see which factors mattered most in hiring.  The factor that seemed to matter the most was departmental reputation, followed by the number of publications.  The article was published in 2007 but I doubt much has changed since then - people who come from better-reputed programs will, all else being equal, probably have better chances on the job market.  It won't just be because of the name, though; it's because of a variety of factors, including the resources and network that faculty at top departments have.

 

The NRC has UChicago's psychology PhD program's S-ranking between 8 and 38 and the R ranking between 7 and 28 - so around the same as Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Pittsburgh, MIT, and Syracuse.  The problem with the NRC's psychology rankings, though, is they lump together subfields and even add some adjunct fields in (like human development and family studies, which is heavily related to psychology but not purely psychology).  There's even a communication disorders program in there!  Also, at this point the rankings are nearly 10 years old.  U.S. News has UChicago in the top 25ish psychology programs - around Carnegie Mellon, Duke, Ohio State, UC-Davis, Brown, Johns Hopkins, Indiana and Virginia.

 

So, at least in about 2005-2007, many faculty members would have ranked UChicago in the top 20-30ish programs in psychology (based on the S-rankings).  You don't have to worry what the general public things, because they won't be doing the hiring - just like the general public might not realize that Michigan and UCLA are powerhouse academic research institutions and not just big sports schools.  You just need to worry about what faculty thing, and for the most recent rankings for which we have information, most faculty seem to have a pretty good opinion of UChicago.

 

You also might want to try to ferret out where recent alumni of UChicago's PhD program are currently working.  Ask a PI of interest where they have placed their most recent students.

[rolltheeurydice]

Thanks juilletmercredi, this is the type of answer I was looking for. It's too bad that there isn't more recent NRC data!