Dropping out of PhD

[Hero Honda]

Hi,

 

Is it okay to drop out of the PhD admission after getting an MS degree to join a better program for PhD?

 

I know morally we are talking about grey area. Right?

[iphi]

Why not? You should not be stuck in something you hate. Just be careful how you transition - try not to piss off your POI. And you will have to be careful how you phrase the transition because the schools you are applying to will want to know why you're leaving.

[Hero Honda]

Why not? You should not be stuck in something you hate. Just be careful how you transition - try not to piss off your POI. And you will have to be careful how you phrase the transition because the schools you are applying to will want to know why you're leaving.

 

Hi. Thanks a lot for the response. The only reason that I will plan to leave is just that the current place I get in is not that highly ranked. Hence I think that after completing my MS, I will have a better application in terms of experience and GPA and might be able to get  a shot at a better place.

[doomination]

You'll have to somehow convince your current PI to write a strong letter of rec to these higher ranked institutions.

[Taeyers]

3 comments:

1) Since your application season is now and you're not even in the program yet, I'd say this is a decidedly darker region of the moral gray area. You're trying to deceive the program from the very start and knowingly occupying resources that they want to put toward PhD students in return for PhD-level accomplishments (that is many more years of work and a bigger research project/footprint)

[ETA: I suppose this application season might be for the second program (you didn't specify) but that's still ethically not much better if there's nothing wrong with your current program except for the rank (which you should have known about when you accepted)]

2) not all PhD programs award a Master's to someone who doesn't finish. If you were in my program and said after 2 years that you want to leave, you might not be taking a Master's with you.

3) you would not be a successful student with a Master's degree applying for PhDs. You would be a former PhD student who, for whatever reason, couldn't or chose not to complete the last program where you were admitted and funded. You would be relying on letters of rec from people you left holding the shitty end of the stick.

I personally would never attempt what you're considering, both for ethical reasons and because of the very real risks. I would much sooner skip a year and apply again.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Taeyers

[BiochemMom]

Your MS would not be viewed the same way as a terminal MS. It would be a consolation prize in the eyes of admissions committees. If you want to go that route, apply to terminal MS programs and then apply again.

[Hero Honda]

So here is the deal... I come from a relatively unknown place with a mediocre financial background. So in terms of doing a masters, I dont really have money to afford it. Also as the place I am currently at is very unknown, hence I don't really have the opportunity to grow in terms of experience. But I really want to get a faculty position which wont be possible unless I go to a top ranked place. So the option I am left with is to first go to a relatively known place, get a masters and then apply for a PhD at a top ranked place. Now as I dont have money to get a masters hence I will have to join a program as a PhD student and then leave after masters ( they do provide a masters degree on way to PhD ). I know that this is a morally and professionally a grey area, but what other options do I have.

 

If anyone of you has a better alternative than I would love to do that as this is like the last thing I would want to do because its ethically wrong.   

[Marst]

Apply for a funded terminal masters. Most masters are unfunded by default, but many offer some funding for exceptional candidates. Since you are aiming for low-ranked programs anyway, you might as well apply for one where you are at the top of the applicant pool so you have a shot at funding. The funding would look good on your CV too.

[astaroth27]

It isn't a "moral grey area". It would be deceptive and wrong. Aside from that, it is a bad plan. What you are doing is essentially dropping out of a PhD program and PhD dropouts don't get accepted at high ranking institutions. They would view you as a significant risk and almost certainly would not offer you admissions regardless of strong letters of rec, grades, whatever. As far as faculty positions go, you can still get one even if you went to a low-tier school for your PhD. You just have to work a hell of a lot harder. I know professors at Ivy Leagues that got their degrees from Kansas State and University of Arizona. While these are not bad schools they are not very highly ranked in my field. They both built strong connections during their post-docs and carved a niche for themselves which made them highly desirable when applying for faculty positions. I would suggest you do the best you can in your PhD program and try for one of these high ranked places in your post-doc. 

[Hero Honda]

Thanks for the response guys. So you guys think that I should decline the PhD offer then and ask them if they want to consider me for a Masters position with funding? The problem is that even if I get full tuition wavier, I would still not be able to afford the living and utilities. 

[BiochemMom]

Thanks for the response guys. So you guys think that I should decline the PhD offer then and ask them if they want to consider me for a Masters position with funding? The problem is that even if I get full tuition wavier, I would still not be able to afford the living and utilities.

There are schools with masters that are funded. I went to a terminal ms program and my PI paid my tuition from his grant (I direct admitted into his lab) and the dept paid me a stipend of $18k per year to teach two labs a semester and one a summer. State schools without phd programs are where you want to look, and instate is more likely to get a tuition waiver or discount.

[Heaven'sMaiden]

It isn't a "moral grey area". It would be deceptive and wrong. Aside from that, it is a bad plan. What you are doing is essentially dropping out of a PhD program and PhD dropouts don't get accepted at high ranking institutions. They would view you as a significant risk and almost certainly would not offer you admissions regardless of strong letters of rec, grades, whatever. As far as faculty positions go, you can still get one even if you went to a low-tier school for your PhD. You just have to work a hell of a lot harder. I know professors at Ivy Leagues that got their degrees from Kansas State and University of Arizona. While these are not bad schools they are not very highly ranked in my field. They both built strong connections during their post-docs and carved a niche for themselves which made them highly desirable when applying for faculty positions. I would suggest you do the best you can in your PhD program and try for one of these high ranked places in your post-doc. 

This 

[Marst]

Thanks for the response guys. So you guys think that I should decline the PhD offer then and ask them if they want to consider me for a Masters position with funding? The problem is that even if I get full tuition wavier, I would still not be able to afford the living and utilities. 

You can ask, although I think the chances are slim. It sounds as though you are probably better off reapplying to places where you have a shot at full funding (= including a stipend for living expenses) for masters.

[tip3r]

You can ask, although I think the chances are slim. It sounds as though you are probably better off reapplying to places where you have a shot at full funding (= including a stipend for living expenses) for masters.

It's also possible he won't get a straight answer. I applied for a M.S. admission and was admitted to the PhD program (error on the university side), however, the admission letter only said "graduate education" and I didn't realize until a potential adviser sent me an email inviting me to join his lab. By then I had turned down my other offers. I had only applied for M.S. at this school because I felt it was not ranked as highly as I would have liked for PhD education (~60). When I asked to have it switched to a M.S. admission they told me that there would be no issues but I should start as PhD and see if I change my mind and decide to stay for PhD first. I would be able to switch any time later on. Well, everything blew up when I told my adviser I wanted to permanently switch to PhD. I lost his recommendation letter and he made sure I don't get any publications or good work done. In fact, he made sure I get a course-based degree to further hurt my chances of getting admitted into a good program. When I told the dean of this his explanation was that he said all he had gauranteed was that I would be able to switch which I was able to do, despite the repurcussions.

 

I got lucky and was able to get into a decently ranked program (~30 in my major) however, I had turned down programs ranked at about 20 two years earlier in favor of the master's program I attended.

 

Long story short. You life will be much simpler if you do not attempt this.

Edited March 23, 2015 by tip3r

[Hero Honda]

It's also possible he won't get a straight answer. I applied for a M.S. admission and was admitted to the PhD program (error on the university side), however, the admission letter only said "graduate education" and I didn't realize until a potential adviser sent me an email inviting me to join his lab. By then I had turned down my other offers. I had only applied for M.S. at this school because I felt it was not ranked as highly as I would have liked for PhD education (~60). When I asked to have it switched to a M.S. admission they told me that there would be no issues but I should start as PhD and see if I change my mind and decide to stay for PhD first. I would be able to switch any time later on. Well, everything blew up when I told my adviser I wanted to permanently switch to PhD. I lost his recommendation letter and he made sure I don't get any publications or good work done. In fact, he made sure I get a course-based degree to further hurt my chances of getting admitted into a good program. When I told the dean of this his explanation was that he said all he had gauranteed was that I would be able to switch which I was able to do, despite the repurcussions.

 

I got lucky and was able to get into a decently ranked program (~30 in my major) however, I had turned down programs ranked at about 20 two years earlier in favor of the master's program I attended.

 

Long story short. You life will be much simpler if you do not attempt this.

Thanks for the response. That does seem really harsh. Were you funded during your masters ?

[Karoku_valentine]

It's also possible he won't get a straight answer. I applied for a M.S. admission and was admitted to the PhD program (error on the university side), however, the admission letter only said "graduate education" and I didn't realize until a potential adviser sent me an email inviting me to join his lab. By then I had turned down my other offers. I had only applied for M.S. at this school because I felt it was not ranked as highly as I would have liked for PhD education (~60). When I asked to have it switched to a M.S. admission they told me that there would be no issues but I should start as PhD and see if I change my mind and decide to stay for PhD first. I would be able to switch any time later on. Well, everything blew up when I told my adviser I wanted to permanently switch to PhD. I lost his recommendation letter and he made sure I don't get any publications or good work done. In fact, he made sure I get a course-based degree to further hurt my chances of getting admitted into a good program. When I told the dean of this his explanation was that he said all he had gauranteed was that I would be able to switch which I was able to do, despite the repurcussions.

 

I got lucky and was able to get into a decently ranked program (~30 in my major) however, I had turned down programs ranked at about 20 two years earlier in favor of the master's program I attended.

 

Long story short. You life will be much simpler if you do not attempt this.

 

Why did the adviser get angry when you told him you wanted to be a PhD student? I mean, he had contacted you earlier because he thought you were admitted to the PhD, then why would he be mad if you finally switched to the PhD?

[_kita]

Is this a matter of the program not fitting your interests, or simply about institution prestige? If it is simply a prestige issue, I highly advise against this decision. To get into a top tiered, highly competitive institution, you need exceptional credentials. Several of those credentials include a specific focus that matches theirs and strong letters of recommendation. If you're changing programs on what looks like a whim, they're going to mark that against your focus and determination. Also, your letters of recommendation fall short. Furthermore, building up your portfolio also doesn't guarantee you a "top-tiered" slot. It just increases your changes. 

 

However, if the program is not a fit, that is something you can discuss with your POI, and they may be able to help you out determining how to make the best of the program, or what you should be focusing on.

 

Several years ago, I had tried to get a PhD program admittance. But my credentials did not justify my goal. So instead I went to a professional degree program (M.A. Counseling). After building a reputation for a year, I was able to talk to faculty members about my real interest in perusing a PhD in Psychology in academia. That has opened doors for me to be involved in ethics competitions, creating a research independent studies, etc. You're likely to find something like a graduate assistantship where you work for the campus for tuition waiver and some income. While it will not fully cover costs, it will help some. And if you get a GA/TA/RA in your desired field, it will also further your portfolio. Financially, you can look for fully funded master's programs, but more often than not, the program will only be able to get you a GAship.

 

If you demonstrate high quality work in your doctoral program and field, the ranking matters a bit less. Most jobs look at the piece of paper first, the quality of that work second, and then the reputation. You can also then apply for a post-doctoral program later on that will give you the prestige. 

[tip3r]

Thanks for the response. That does seem really harsh. Were you funded during your masters ?

Yes, I was funded. Although my adviser did cut me off after I told him I wanted to switch to master's but I was still able to get TA support for the remainder of my time there. I think the main issue was that my adviser was offended that I wanted to pursue a PhD elsewhere. There was another student in a situation similar to me who switched but he had no issues with my adviser, the only difference was that he didn't want to pursue a PhD and was quitting because he wanted to find a job. The funny thing was this student was on a project that was funded for NASA specifically for one PhD student while I was on a project that was suppose to be for two PhD students and a master's student (there were two other PhD students on the project so it would be totally fine for me to switch to a master's). My adviser had also got his PhD from a top 10 school so you would think he would understand.

 

Ironically, that professor is now becoming a professor at the university I'm currently at.

Edited March 23, 2015 by tip3r

[tip3r]

Why did the adviser get angry when you told him you wanted to be a PhD student? I mean, he had contacted you earlier because he thought you were admitted to the PhD, then why would he be mad if you finally switched to the PhD?

I didn't finally switch to PhD, I switched from PhD to MS. I told him I don't want to be his PhD student. I had never applied for PhD at that University. Although I wanted to eventually get a PhD I didn't want one from that specific university (for various reasons including rank and prestige). The university had admitted me to a PhD program despite me applying for a MS admission. After the university realized their error they didn't immediately switch me to MS, they told me I should give it time and test the PhD program, and if I decide I don't want to stay then they'll switch me to MS.

 

So I gave it time and after a year I told my adviser that I've made up my mind and that I want to be a MS student. That is when he got mad. Mostly because I wanted to get an MS and pursue a PhD somewhere else, not because he was losing me.

Edited March 23, 2015 by tip3r

[Karoku_valentine]

I didn't finally switch to PhD, I switched from PhD to MS. I told him I don't want to be his PhD student. I had never applied for PhD at that University. Although I wanted to eventually get a PhD I didn't want one from that specific university (for various reasons including rank and prestige). The university had admitted me to a PhD program despite me applying for a MS admission. After the university realized their error they didn't immediately switch me to MS, they told me I should give it time and test the PhD program, and if I decide I don't want to stay then they'll switch me to MS.

 

So I gave it time and after a year I told my adviser that I've made up my mind and that I want to be a MS student. That is when he got mad. Mostly because I wanted to get an MS and pursue a PhD somewhere else, not because he was losing me.

Got it. It sounded to me like you switched to the PhD permanently as you were still undecided.

[Igotnothin]

If you've got a fully funded PhD offer, I highly recommend enrolling. If after 2 years you strongly feel that your future prospects will be better with a degree from a higher ranked school, you can think about switching. Although I would recommend staying unless you really don't like it there. It probably wouldn't be worth the stress and hassle of re-applying elsewhere.

 

I think the idea of declining your offer to apply to terminal master's programs next year is crazy. You would be passing on a funded PhD program today for a (probably unfunded) MS next year. Doesn't make any sense.

[Hero Honda]

If you've got a fully funded PhD offer, I highly recommend enrolling. If after 2 years you strongly feel that your future prospects will be better with a degree from a higher ranked school, you can think about switching. Although I would recommend staying unless you really don't like it there. It probably wouldn't be worth the stress and hassle of re-applying elsewhere.

 

I think the idea of declining your offer to apply to terminal master's programs next year is crazy. You would be passing on a funded PhD program today for a (probably unfunded) MS next year. Doesn't make any sense.

Thanks. yes that seems like fine. Giving up a PhD admission when the funding is pretty sweet and reapplying next year when I dont have guarantee of either admission or funding in the Master's program does seem a little silly. And two years is a long time. Who knows what happens and how my mindset changes in the next 2 years.

[Hero Honda]

Yes, I was funded. Although my adviser did cut me off after I told him I wanted to switch to master's but I was still able to get TA support for the remainder of my time there. I think the main issue was that my adviser was offended that I wanted to pursue a PhD elsewhere. There was another student in a situation similar to me who switched but he had no issues with my adviser, the only difference was that he didn't want to pursue a PhD and was quitting because he wanted to find a job. The funny thing was this student was on a project that was funded for NASA specifically for one PhD student while I was on a project that was suppose to be for two PhD students and a master's student (there were two other PhD students on the project so it would be totally fine for me to switch to a master's). My adviser had also got his PhD from a top 10 school so you would think he would understand.

 

Ironically, that professor is now becoming a professor at the university I'm currently at.

Well it seems like it doesnt matter 'what you do' and the only thing that matters is 'how you do it'...