How important do you consider attention to graduate students?

[nutellarain]

While I blown away by the vast amount of research at my top choice school (and best ranked program), I was a little put off by how decentralized the program seemed as grad students were spread across multiple research institutes. Despite having a huge number of grad students, only 15-20 students had posters at the interview weekend poster session and most did not make it to any of the recruitment events. I also noticed that very few of my fellow interviewees were matched with faculty they requested or faculty that even remotely worked in their area of interest. I mean, I know faculty are busy, but at all of the schools I interviewed at people seemed to get at least 1-2 people they requested. Additionally, the postdoc/grad student ratio for all labs was very high. Overall, I got the impression that training grad students was not a focus of the institution. 

 

The problem is, I'm not sure how much this matters! I suppose it means extra leg work on the students part to secure rotations, etc. without a great network of support. Is it really worth attending a lower ranked school with less faculty to find a more grad student-centric institute? 

 

I would love to hear your opinions and advice! 

 

[notsaxophones]

While I blown away by the vast amount of research at my top choice school (and best ranked program), I was a little put off by how decentralized the program seemed as grad students were spread across multiple research institutes. Despite having a huge number of grad students, only 15-20 students had posters at the interview weekend poster session and most did not make it to any of the recruitment events. I also noticed that very few of my fellow interviewees were matched with faculty they requested or faculty that even remotely worked in their area of interest. I mean, I know faculty are busy, but at all of the schools I interviewed at people seemed to get at least 1-2 people they requested. Additionally, the postdoc/grad student ratio for all labs was very high. Overall, I got the impression that training grad students was not a focus of the institution. 

 

The problem is, I'm not sure how much this matters! I suppose it means extra leg work on the students part to secure rotations, etc. without a great network of support. Is it really worth attending a lower ranked school with less faculty to find a more grad student-centric institute? 

 

I would love to hear your opinions and advice! 

 

From what I've heard, if a program is too postdoc-heavy you might get fewer chances to publish (aka, work harder to get your project noticed). But at my interviews, if there was a poster session not too many people presented - I don't think this is a representation of not many grad students being involved though, I think it was due to space, time, and who had the desire to give one. At some of my interviews I know that probably only half of the grad students participated in the extracurricular activities, and that made me feel like there isn't the pressure to HAVE to participate in every single thing the program does.

 

Also, what I've been told over and over is that it depends on what kind of a student you are. If you are very self-motivated, do not need as much mentorship, and are essentially confident in being more independent in your research, then you could thrive in a less grad student-centric institute. Just depends on your personality and abilities.

[username1824]

Well I can give my perspective as a first-year grad student. I just finished hosting for the interview weekends. All of the students, or I should say first-years and second-years, were out on all of the extracurricular activities, and the major reason was because all our friends were gonna be there. I don't know about other programs, but my department has 30+ first years and we're all really close with each other and genuinely enjoy spending time together. So if I hear another school only half the students show up to extracurricular stuff, based solely on my experiences which may or may not be representative (I can only attend one graduate school after all), I would think that the department is not extremely close. This may or may not be true, I really can't say and I think you'd have a better idea based on the interactions you saw. If you're a person like me who enjoys interacting with your peers and fellow students, this may not be the perfect environment for you. Again it's hard to say because I'm basing my answer solely on my experiences.

 

On the matter of high postdoc/grad ratio, I feel that your PhD is all about preparation and training. I rotated in one lab that was all graduate students and the mentor would constantly pop into lab to say hi and see if anyone needed any help or anything. I also rotated in a lab with 30 post docs and 1 graduate student. A week or two ago, I told the PI with the 30+ lab that I wanted to join, so that's where I'm doing my thesis. Originally I went into grad school thinking that PI mentorship was irreplaceable, but I realized in my rotation that postdocs can make excellent mentors too. I should mention that the lab atmosphere in the lab I'm in is extraordinarily generous, full of collaborations between members, and overall very friendly, so I know that if I have questions, there will be a postdoc. Additionally, my PI paired me up with a postdoc who's fairly new also, so that we can each help each other and grow together in our time. I'm positive there are many postdoc heavy labs where the postdocs are very self-driven and are looking to publish and don't want to use their time offering training to a grad student. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that postdoc-heavy labs can be great if the postdocs themselves are generous and friendly. Postdocs can be great allies and mentors in your training. But overall, despite how much I love the lab I'm in, I would not have joined it if I didn't think I can get some kind of mentorship and training from the postdocs. If you don't feel grad-mentoring (either from the PI or postdocs) at this school is up to your expectations, I wouldn't go there. Your mentorship and training are the entire reason you're in grad school. 

[virus guy]

I would be careful if a graduate program is not focusing on the training of its graduate students. I know a lot of top schools have labs that are saturated with post docs and it becomes very difficult for graduate students to publish their work. This really becomes a problem if your program has a minimum publishing requirement. This is when the horror stories of a 7-8 year Ph. D. comes into play. As username1824 said if you are a self motivated student then you will be better off but, when push comes to shove the post-doc can pull rank and publish quicker. I would much rather go to a lower ranked school (rankings not being my first priority) and get more attention from my PI and work closer with them. I don't go to a well known school now but my training has been top notch and I've been complimented on my research experience on every interview. I'm not sure what your future plans are but if its to do a post-doc of some kind the more pubs you have and more grants you have written the better off you will be.  

[nutellarain]

Thanks for all the advice! I'm definitely leaning towards working in a smaller lab where I'll have more personalized attention from the PI

[Eigen]

I would be careful judging too much based off the recruitment weekend. Sometimes the staff organizing them don't pay a lot of attention to when in the semester they get placed, and faculty may be very busy/out of town at a conference, and the same with grad students.

 

We got less than 2 full days notice for a recruitment poster session in the department, and there were several other major things going on that night- so I'm sure attendance was low, even though we're normally a very sociable group.

[notsaxophones]

Also, I would like to add that matching me with professors I was interested in actually didn't make the interview weekend better. With my two at washington, for the first I was matched with all people I really thought I was interested in. For the second, I felt like I was randomly assigned professors (I am a bacteria person and was very confused as to why I was placed with a Zebrafish eye person and a mouse cancer person). But I at the interviews, I found out that a lot of the people that I thought I was interested in wouldn't be labs I would want to join (professors thinking of retiring, etc), and that things I thought I wasn't interested in are actually really cool. I think that second program was also trying to show me the breadth that they offered as an umbrella program, and trust me, it worked.

[gliaful]

After my most recent interview/acceptance, I'm getting emails (and texts?!) from faculty and students that I met with during the weekend, congratulating me and telling me to come study with them. 

The warm welcome definitely makes me feel like the program cares about its grad students and its research community.

On the other hand, I know better (...or I'm trying to know better) than to allow this recent flaring of my inboxes to cloud what I know about the program. It's such a hard game!

 

I do value closer-knit programs, as I think they can offer a lot of the stuff that isn't explicitly written on paper -- the personal development that comes with feeling like you really belong to something, the connections that come with knowing the people around you really well, etc. But I think what username1824 said isn't to be discounted either. I haven't experienced being in a lab with 30 postdocs, but it might be just as supportive.  

[expandyourmind]

for my master's that i'm doing right now i was thrown into a pretty big lab with about 20 people, various postdocs, techs, phd students, masters students. i just feel totally lost to be honest. i feel pretty thrown into the deep end not really knowing what i need to do. i never thought it'd be like this because every project i've worked on and every lab i've been with for 5 years has been great. i'm definitely one for smaller labs i think. 

[nutellarain]

After my most recent interview/acceptance, I'm getting emails (and texts?!) from faculty and students that I met with during the weekend, congratulating me and telling me to come study with them. 

The warm welcome definitely makes me feel like the program cares about its grad students and its research community.

On the other hand, I know better (...or I'm trying to know better) than to allow this recent flaring of my inboxes to cloud what I know about the program. It's such a hard game!

 

I do value closer-knit programs, as I think they can offer a lot of the stuff that isn't explicitly written on paper -- the personal development that comes with feeling like you really belong to something, the connections that come with knowing the people around you really well, etc. But I think what username1824 said isn't to be discounted either. I haven't experienced being in a lab with 30 postdocs, but it might be just as supportive.  

I'm dealing with the same problem, I think the smaller/lower-ranked programs simply put more effort into recruiting. I said to my boyfriend the other day, "Program X is being so nice! I should just go there" and he reminded me that was a ridiculous reason to chose a grad school, haha. It does make me wonder if they treat the students with more personal attention during the program as well. 

[expandyourmind]

yeah i'm very unhappy and unmotivated in my lab right now. i tried to talk to my PI and we butted heads so now i just have to bite my lip and get the next few months over with...

 

i ended up committing to the place where I felt they were invested the most. I really clicked with all of the professors and just absolutely loved everyone I met. there wasn't a person i didn't enjoy talking with or seemed genuinely interested in who i was. hopefully i wont butt heads with anyone else like i did with my PI!!

[aberrant]

In my perspective as a grad student, 50% of me attending recruitment weekends was because of order from the higher ups, the other 50% was because of the free food. I think that your concern does not really matter after all. Ultimately, you will have to determine why are you applying to a particular program, and evaluate whether it is important to have A) a great mentor (from your PI/lab) from this particular program, or a program that is student-oriented, or C) both. Will you be happy if you can only have one of the two options? Will you get to where you want to be (after getting your PhD) if you can only A or B, which is a "worst-best" scenario (worst = to have only either A or B, best = the single option (A or is truly perfect/ideal).

 

I love where I am at and people that I associated with (even though there are always one or three individuals that give me all these negativity). And I tried to focus on my objective so that I can get to the next phrase of my career and life.