How honest are current students about their programs?

[mseph]

I decided to talk to as many current students as possible. Attending open house was a good opportunity to talk to the students who are currently in the program. To those schools I could not attend their events, I emailed students, introducing myself as a newly admit and asked for their experience as grad students in that institution. 

 

And I find their answers all echoing, across all schools I got accepted into. "I like the program, the department is very supportive, you will receive what you are looking for, it provides great methods training...etc." Then, I started to wonder, do grad students also have some incentives in recruiting admitted students? I am aware that faculty would have great incentives, as they want admitted students to accept their offers, but why current students? The reason I decided to talk to as many grad students I can was due to thinking that they would be more honest about the program. But now I am doubting about this a bit. Can someone give me some insight on how honest current students usually are? 

[nugget]

I don't think students have any extra incentives per se, but some may not want to say bad things about their program because others could find out about it or it could reflect badly on them. If you are getting generic responses, perhaps your questions need to be more specific to generate more detailed answers.If you are already dong this, I'm not sure what else you could do. Sometimes talking to someone in person can be helpful in getting people to open up to you, but I realize you may not have the ability to visit the school at this point.  Perhaps setting up a telephone appointment with some students would generate more responses. You will be able to hear hesitation in their voices, pauses, or enthusiasm, for instance, which would not come across in an email.

[peachypie]

grad students really have no incentive in telling you a lie to get you to come to a school or program.  I do agree that having a conversation may get a better feel than simply an email but also there are very few grad students who will advise you against entering a program unless there is something systemically wrong with the program itself.  Generally students are pretty up front about that because a lot of times it feels like a responsibility to make sure other students do not fall into a problem that they were unaware of.  think about asking students about working with specific professors.  They may not walk around saying "don't work with XYZ, but if you ask them about working with prof X they would have no reason not to tell you what they know, good or bad.  it is a collegial world once you are in graduate school and students are there to help one another not sabotage.  if you can have phone conversations that would be better or face to face or whatnot, if not emails are great but some people if htey do have something poor to say may  not want to have it written in a documented email.  Maybe note, if it is easier or more comfortable to talk on the phone that you'd be available for that too.

[iphi]

Our policy as grad students this semester was to be as honest as possible to individual students. So basically when talking in front of a group that may or may not include professors it is a bit difficult to be 100% honest. But we urged prospectives to email us and when they did we were candid.

[fuzzylogician]

You have to frame your questions the right way. Not a lot of people will straight up say bad things about their program in an email, if you ask me. That leaves too much of a paper trail. However, there are ways to ask questions to get more indirect indications of anything that is wrong. And even better would be to talk to students in person or on the phone, without the presence of faculty. 

[typeA_PhDhopeful]

Try asking questions like this:

What was your favorite and least favorite thing about the program?

During the process, did anyone in your cohort become unhappy, and why?

 

That way they will need to give you some negatives as well that will better help you compare.

[MOR_embryo]

I found a lot of programs' students boasting the same traits: highly collaborative research environment, good core facilities, great night life and student groups, and good quality of life.

I really got sick of having the same conversations over and over.

I also found myself talking up my current program (masters program, but showing around a prospective PhD student). I didn't lie but I probably some things seem better than they were.

Also on these interviews, I rarely got to talk to more than 10 current students, when these programs ooften have 300+ students. First and second years were running the events. It's always a good idea to talk to senior students who have seen the program change (or stay the same) and see potential problems with how things are run.

[eeee1923]

The grad students on my visits tended to be honest but they still tried to spin the program positively (which I understand). At one of the programs, the student, who was on his way out (5th year), gave me some of the best advice on how to succeed in grad school and straight up told me that "program X is awesome but at the end of the day it's up to you to choose the program you best fit with. If this is the program, then awesome but if it's not I can't force you to come but I can give you some tips that should work regardless of which program you choose." 

 

IMO that was one of the most useful conversations I had with any current grad student on out of all my visits and I plan on doing the same once I'm in my PhD program.

[TakeruK]

I'd echo everything said above, especially about the paper trail comments and honesty to individuals rather than the group.

 

However, there is a small incentive for us to get you to come to our program. If we think you are a good student / researcher, it is in our best interests to get you to come. If you come and do good work, it will advance our department/school's reputation and the more people that think "wow, students from school X are really good", the better it is for us, when we apply for jobs with School X on our CVs.

[rising_star]

You have to ask good questions to get good answers. Whether or not they have an incentive depends on the program and that incentive isn't really financial. When I was a 1st/2nd year PhD student, the incentive was recruiting someone that would be cool and who I would enjoy seeing in class and in the halls, and potentially collaborating with. At the end of my PhD, so years 3+, I was far less concerned with who enrolled because I was ABD and wouldn't see much of them anyway. I was definitely more honest with prospective students in years 3+, though part of that was also because by then I had a better understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of my department and how it compared to others.

[aberrant]

i think that those responses will "vary", and it has a lot to do with the method/media that you used to ask those questions.

 

For the record, e-mails to a public university account is subject to public disclosure upon request. hence, anyone who realize this is the case may not be as honest as he/she could/should be, at least "on the record". (In other words, you may read a lot more good things about the program/school/etc. then there is.)

 

For the same reason, I would suggest you to ask questions that you have to the grad students in person if you can. Ideally, ask them questions individually, and not in a social gathering environment. Reason for that is because there are students who say all the good and wonderful things about the program, the school, and everything else just to get you in. And, while some of them may not want to "lie", they just "have to" because "it was an order".

 

I, for one, was mislead by senior grad students in my current program. The impression that I perceive during recruitment weekend as a prospective student, and the reality that I am experiencing as a grad student, are quite different. That being said, I tried not to participate in the recruiting weekends as a grad student because I don't have billion good things to say about my school or the city (not necessarily my program).

Edited March 9, 2015 by aberrant

[gixd]

confirmation bias? They might not be intentionally lying you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[TakeruK]

For the record, e-mails to a public university account is subject to public disclosure upon request. hence, anyone who realize this is the case may not be as honest as he/she could/should be, at least "on the record". (In other words, you may read a lot more good things about the program/school/etc. then there is.)

 

For the same reason, I would suggest you to ask questions that you have to the grad students in person if you can. Ideally, ask them questions individually, and not in a social gathering environment. 

 

At my current school (private), we are told on the first day that we should expect no privacy with our .edu email address and that if the school wanted to, they can read all of our emails. We are still allowed to send personal emails from that address, but we should just know that the school can choose to read our .edu emails if they wanted to. So it's not just public universities!

 

Also, in my program, a big part of the meeting days is scheduled 15-30 min talks with individual graduate students. This is the best time to ask those personal and well worded questions. I've met with students that asked me a variety of things and some of them were good questions and some bad. 

Example bad questions to ask (i.e. you will get an evasive answer or just useless information): What do you hate about this program? (especially if it's the first thing you ask); Have you heard anything bad about any of the professors? (this is too much like gossip for us to give useful info); What is grad school here like? (not necessarily a bad question, but many people ask this as a way to get information about the negatives but if you ask this, you will mostly get the positives).

 

Good questions I think you should ask: What is Prof X's mentoring style like? (if Prof X is that student's advisor and your POI). Is the stipend enough to live in this city? What other schools did you visit? Why did you choose this school over the others? Why did you pick Prof X over the others? You can also ask specific questions about different aspects of your program, such as quals, candidacy, TAing, RAing, etc. If there are anything bad/dysfunctional about these aspects, it will come up during the conversation.

 

Overall, in order to get good/useful information, I think you have to ask direct and specific questions. Asking broad and general questions usually results in me saying more good things than bad and unless I know or trust you, I don't volunteer bad information about other people without prompting. The "bad questions" examples are things I feel are too general and I would rarely give you useful "negatives" if asked those questions.

[Vene]

For my program we did a dinner for the recruits where all current grad students and faculty were invited. I was there and tried to be honest about the program and my experience so far. I do admit to not bringing up the negative unless asked directly. But, I did answer questions about the work load and hours I was working. I also answered questions about my impression of the city and my thoughts on living here. The dinner also had an open bar, so naturally I had a few drinks. I kind of think this is to the advantage of the recruits. The current grad students will happily drink as we're already in and aren't really trying to impress anybody. This also means that we're going to be a bit more forthcoming on information.

 

So, responses from grad students will vary based on venue (I would be far more reserved in an email than a phone conversation than in person with a drink) as well as based on the questions you ask.

[brown_eyed_girl]

I was matched with another student of my prospective adviser at my program's open house, and he was quite candid with me -- but only when out of earshot from others in the program and professors. I'm also not sure he would have been so open over email. He didn't have anything actually negative to share about the program, but he was honest about the difficulties he had faced in adjusting to the city, having some different research interests from his adviser, etc. I was really grateful that he was straightforward with me about the issues he'd faced, and I also felt pretty confident after talking to him that the problems he had faced were specific to him and not the same ones I would have. I appreciated that he didn't sugarcoat, and it didn't scare me off at all. (Overall he was very encouraging and said he thought the program was right for him, just that it hadn't been a totally smooth transition, etc.) So, there are certainly those out there who are willing to be really honest about the challenges they are facing, but perhaps only in a more private scenario. I don't think anyone has incentives to recruit, but no one wants to be caught bad-mouthing their adviser or program and making enemies in the department. Departmental politics can be tricky. 

[Infinito]

There's only one situation where I have actually noticed that grad students have incentives to sugarcoat things, or to hide negatives.

Namely, this might not happen until you matriculate, but it comes with rotations. If a lab is underperforming, or the POI is MIA or not being as helpful on projects due to various life changes (think new first-born, sabbatical, being recruited by other schools), a current grad student could downplay the negatives to get a 1st year to commit to the lab in order to have more hands to help on their own projects. This wasn't something I ever thought about until two different graduate students brought this up in private after a seminar; they were, however, on their way out (5th years), and alluded to the fact that they were lured into the lab by someone, and that it became a cycle with the next graduate student doing the same.

That's probably the main thing I would watch out for.

[Joan Callamezzo]

The university I did my MA at was prestigious, but our department had a LOT of problems. The professors put pressure on the graduate students to make a good impression on prospectives, and I will 100% admit that I was not entirely forthcoming with prospective students. No, it was not the right thing to do, and I do not know why we did it, but it happened nonetheless. I was always honest about the realities of the poor funding situation in our department, but I was definitely guilty of white-washing and glossing over some of the flaws of the department. I think that this is always something you need to keep in mind when visiting a department - students are not going to want to risk doing harm to their relationship with their advisor or the DGS, so take what they have to say with a grain of salt. Good people to talk to are 5th year plus ABDs, because they have the most perspective on the department, and probably have less at stake and will be more willing to give you an honest answer. 

[aberrant]

There's only one situation where I have actually noticed that grad students have incentives to sugarcoat things, or to hide negatives.

Namely, this might not happen until you matriculate, but it comes with rotations. If a lab is underperforming, or the POI is MIA or not being as helpful on projects due to various life changes (think new first-born, sabbatical, being recruited by other schools), a current grad student could downplay the negatives to get a 1st year to commit to the lab in order to have more hands to help on their own projects. This wasn't something I ever thought about until two different graduate students brought this up in private after a seminar; they were, however, on their way out (5th years), and alluded to the fact that they were lured into the lab by someone, and that it became a cycle with the next graduate student doing the same.

 

When a program is underenrolled (yes, it applies to PhD program(s)), the department will have less bargain power to ask for more funding from the source (e.g. state government). It is all about money, unfortunately. Keep in mind that in many places, graduate students are cheap TA, too. It actually is happening in this science program, where 1st year students have to TA as many as 3 sections per semester, for at least two semester.

 

 

confirmation bias? They might not be intentionally lying you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

Not sure if confirmation bias address a scenario, such as when the current students "pretend" (using it very loosely here) to be friends with one and other in the same, small department during recruit weekends, and then turn out to be "segregated" in different ways. In any case, it's just unfortunate.

[braindump]

I, for one, was mislead by senior grad students in my current program. The impression that I perceive during recruitment weekend as a prospective student, and the reality that I am experiencing as a grad student, are quite different. 

 

If you don't mind, can you elaborate a bit on this? Just trying to get some perspective.

[terralily]

I have had an experience in which a grad student was completely disillusioned with the program and was leaving.  This person had no problem dishing dirt.  The thing was it was all personal.  They just didn't mesh with their advisors and clearly their focus had shifted so dramatically that they no longer really belonged in the department and were actively moving.  People generally like to gossip and when asked directly (in person not in writing) they will tell the truth.  

 

I also asked drawbacks directly of the professors.  This is a significant portion of your life, and you should be asking tough questions of everyone, not just the students.  

[WhatAmIDoingNow]

I decided to talk to as many current students as possible. Attending open house was a good opportunity to talk to the students who are currently in the program. To those schools I could not attend their events, I emailed students, introducing myself as a newly admit and asked for their experience as grad students in that institution. 

 

And I find their answers all echoing, across all schools I got accepted into. "I like the program, the department is very supportive, you will receive what you are looking for, it provides great methods training...etc." Then, I started to wonder, do grad students also have some incentives in recruiting admitted students? I am aware that faculty would have great incentives, as they want admitted students to accept their offers, but why current students? The reason I decided to talk to as many grad students I can was due to thinking that they would be more honest about the program. But now I am doubting about this a bit. Can someone give me some insight on how honest current students usually are? 

 

Have you asked the schools about the other schools?  There is a way to do this tactfully.  The academic world is small. The schools I applied to had wonderful things to say about each other and were able to name good things and some frustrations they have experienced with each other. 

[mseph]

Have you asked the schools about the other schools?  There is a way to do this tactfully.  The academic world is small. The schools I applied to had wonderful things to say about each other and were able to name good things and some frustrations they have experienced with each other. 

Do you mind expanding a bit about asking schools about other schools? I think this is something I am missing. I did what many of previous posts suggested, such as asking specific questions and reasons for choosing their current program over the others etc. But I did not ask them about other schools. What did you specifically ask them?

[Sigaba]

Were I asked by a person who displayed low SA (e.g.asking via email), I would let the person eat static.

If you are going to ask, talk to the ABDs. I would take the guidance of 1st and 2nd year students with a twenty-five pound bag of salt, especially if they raved or groused about the program.

Professors are not going to tell you if things are going to be... difficult... IRT your advisor even if he/she is really... difficult. (When you do figure it out, though, they will grin like grinning grinsters. I am not bitter, though.)

[WhatAmIDoingNow]

Do you mind expanding a bit about asking schools about other schools? I think this is something I am missing. I did what many of previous posts suggested, such as asking specific questions and reasons for choosing their current program over the others etc. But I did not ask them about other schools. What did you specifically ask them?

This works best in person or via telephone or Skype. If you can't get them to ask you about where else you have applied, mention it yourself and ask if they have experience working with people there. Be genuine and sincere, asking for guidance. Ask general, open ended questions about the field and how the schools/faculty are perceived. Be comfortable with pauses until they give you information, let them fill the void of sound.

I am typing from my phone, so I apologize for errors.

Edited March 14, 2015 by WhatAmIDoingNow

[CoolZero]

Like "WhatAmIDoingNow" said, asking about other programs are very good. For example I asked a postdoc in university X ( which has done her PhD in the same university ) about the program in university Y and let her know why I think university Y is good and what I like about there. For the answer she gave me some information on where X is better than Y and where Y is better than X.

Also with such a question, the person knows what are the most important things you are looking for in a program and can help you more.