Seeking Advice: Should I Bother Applying?

[jjb919]

Hey everyone,

 

After frequenting this forum for about a year now; it's a really positive community filled with many intelligent and level-headed people, and I have come to value your insights and opinions. I was wondering if anyone wanted to give their two cents regarding my situation.

 

As some of you may know, I graduated with an MA in philosophy from The New School a couple of years ago. I am currently working at a non-profit in higher education (which I very much enjoy) and am preparing applications to PhD programs next fall. But I am wondering if I should abandon the pursuit before getting any deeper in, and the answer, I think, hinges on what value I find in the PhD.

I am not in this solely to get an academic job. Although a TT job is a pipe dream (and I would do everything I could to prepare myself to be competitive in the academic job market should I enroll in a PhD program), I know that even if I am admitted to a top program and 'tick all the right boxes' the sheer numbers say that I will not get such a position. I have several plan B's in mind if an academic job doesn't pan out.

(As a side note, I will mention that there is some instrumental value to getting a PhD in my case: if I wanted to continue down the higher-education non-profit path, I would need a PhD to get any position higher than the entry level position I currently occupy. Granted, this is a small niche, and getting a PhD for the sake of career advancement in my sector is certainly not worthwhile. But that is not the main reason I want to get a PhD.)

I want to get a PhD because I find it has intrinsic value, and great personal value for me. Having a PhD is valuable, in my opinion, for what it says about the knowledge, skills, drive, and potential for original contribution to the field of those who hold the degree. Someone with a PhD is an autonomous worker, internally motivated, capable of designing and executing large research projects, a good public speaker capable of explaining complicated ideas clearly. While a PhD isn't necessary for developing these useful skills, it is I think necessary for developing the expertise required for making an original contribution to one's field and, on a wider stage, knowledge itself. It's the grueling process of the PhD, and the dissertation specifically, that transforms a person into a scholar with his own intellectual identity and flavor, and who is capable of adding (in his own small way) to human knowledge. This is something I can't do with the amount of education I have now. It's not the mere credential but the process that is necessary. It's one thing to read philosophy in one's spare time, think about it, converse with others about it now and then. It's another to be in the thick of it, able to make sustained arguments for one's philosophical views. Even if I don't get an academic job, I will not have a real stake in my field (and the potential for contributing to it) without having gone through the rigorous intellectual process of the PhD.

However there are some sobering practical considerations that cannot be ignored:
1) In completing my MA I took on considerable student loan debt. I wasn't as informed as I am now. The amount of loans I had to take out to complete my MA means that even if I am fully funded for my PhD and don't have to borrow a penny more, the amount of interest I would accrue on my existing debt would amount to close to $30,000.
2) I am recently married and we are looking to have a child in the next 2-3 years. I want to be able to contribute financially to our big life purchases and savings, and this will be put on hold for quite a while if I enroll in a PhD program. My wife makes decent money but is not thrilled at the idea of supporting us (and a child) while I complete my PhD. She is a very practical person and although she fully supports the mission of a liberal arts education, she doesn't think that same justification holds water at the graduate level, with all the time and costs involved.

With these practical considerations in mind, I wonder if my admittedly idealistic reasons for wanting to get my PhD are no longer sufficiently compelling, or worse, vain and selfish. Do my reasons for wanting to get my PhD boil down to simple self-fulfillment and a deep-seeded but misplaced desire? Given my financial and family situation, do you think it is prohibitively unfair, foolhardy, and selfish on my part to pursue a PhD and put us through that?

Thank you for hearing me out. I very much appreciate any advice or thoughts anyone has for me.

[Duns Eith]

First off, thanks for sharing that. It sounds really difficult.

 

Personally, if I had massive debt like that and wanted kids, I would jump out now.

 

My backup industry/plan B is IT -- I've been doing it concurrently while in my MA (for religion) for 3½ years now. That would knock out the debt pretty quickly if I ran full-on-ahead. I took on some debt on for an MA, and it wasn't wise but we've already started paying it off and it is < 11k in principal. My wife and I want kids in a couple years; maybe 3 years. But if I had over 50k in debt* before the PhD, I could not see myself doing it.

 

If you pursued your plan B for a while, pay off your debt and such, could you reasonably get back in? Maybe the answer is No.

 

 

* I am pretty sure if I am figuring your interest correctly, your principal is far, far above 40k.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Turretin

[jjb919]

If I had massive debt like that and wanted kids, I would jump out now.

 

My backup industry/plan B is IT. That would knock out the debt pretty quickly if I ran full-on-ahead. I took some debt on for an MA, and it wasn't wise but we've already started paying it off and it is < 11k in principal. My wife and I want kids in a couple years; maybe 3 years. But if I had over 50k in debt* before the PhD, I could not see myself doing it.

 

If you pursued your plan B for a while, pay off your debt and such, could you reasonably get back in? Maybe the answer is No.

 

 

* I am pretty sure if I am figuring your interest correctly, your principal is far, far above 40k.

Thanks for the advice. In the interest of transparency, my principal is just shy of 75k for all loans, undergraduate and graduate. I don't have any experience (or perhaps even aptitude) or IT, and my plan B doesn't pay very well (although I have been working with a lot of data for my current job and with more experience and a few classes maybe I could land I job in data analysis that would pay well), so I can't reasonably knock out even a considerable amount of my debt quickly. My hope is that I could at least continue paying the interest while completing the PhD so that by the time I finish I will have the same amount of debt as opposed to more, but that may be too optimistic.

[exaznable]

My thought is that it depends on how much you can be selfish. I don't think that your idealistic reason is convincing, but it doesn't matter if you really like to do philosophy and ready to sacrifice others for it.

 

Here is why I think your idealist reason is not convincing. You can be autonomous worker without PhD degree, as you mentioned. You can develop the expertise to contribute one's field and knowledge without PhD degree in philosophy. You can choose PhD in education, for example, where you can be a part-time graduate student. 

 

But as I said, it doesn't matter whether or not the idealistic concern is convincing. But your practical concerns seem really tough. I am sorry that I can't say anything about that. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by exaznable

[jujubea]

If I were you, I'd wait until your new baby is a few years old. 

Nothing splits a relationship apart faster than a seemingly-absent parent and a newborn child.

Grad school alone has a high divorce rate, so I hear.

[buffyfanify]

Another aspect to consider is the amount of time you can devote to a PhD program if you are planning on having small children.  I'm finishing up my second MA (one in political science, the other philosophy) and have had small children during both of my programs.  

 

It is not for the faint of heart.  Graduate students tend to get little sleep as it is.  Imagine being woken up every two to three hours in the middle of the night for a year or more. Arranging (and paying) for childcare and having to miss classes and events when your child is too sick for daycare or a babysitter.  

 

The sacrifice and commitment to combine a PhD in philosophy with child rearing, I think are for those who see more than just idealist value in the degree.  You have to want it for both idealistic and practical reasons and plan on giving 100% to both the program and your family.  

 

Unless - that is- you plan on saddling your wife with not only the financial responsibilities, but also the parental responsibilities.  

[jjb919]

My thought is that it depends on how much you can be selfish. I don't think that your idealistic reason is convincing, but it doesn't matter if you really like to do philosophy and ready to sacrifice others for it.

 

Here is why I think your idealist reason is not convincing. You can be autonomous worker without PhD degree, as you mentioned. You can develop the expertise to contribute one's field and knowledge without PhD degree in philosophy. You can choose PhD in education, for example, where you can be a part-time graduate student. 

 

But as I said, it doesn't matter whether or not the idealistic concern is convincing. But your practical concerns seem really tough. I am sorry that I can't say anything about that. 

I agree with you on the skills part. The crux of my desire centers around being able to contribute to the philosophic discipline, which I don't think is possible without a PhD (maybe you do?). For at least this point I think the PhD is necessary. Then again, maybe this is a silly and unrealistic desire that is better off jettisoned.

 

 

If I were you, I'd wait until your new baby is a few years old. 

Nothing splits a relationship apart faster than a seemingly-absent parent and a newborn child.

Grad school alone has a high divorce rate, so I hear.

Thanks, jujubea. My worries about waiting until are child is a few years old are several: the longer I stay out of grad school the more unlikely it is that I'll be able to put together a compelling application with decent recommendation letters; if our child is a toddler when I start grad school, s/he will be starting to attend school while I'm in grad school and we may have less control and choice of where we can or are able to afford sending him or her to school; by the time I graduate and am searching for a job, academic or not, we will most likely have to uproot ourselves at least one more time and the earlier this happens in our child's life the better I think.

 

Do you think I'm unfounded in my worries?

[jujubea]

I agree with you on the skills part. The crux of my desire centers around being able to contribute to the philosophic discipline, which I don't think is possible without a PhD (maybe you do?). For at least this point I think the PhD is necessary. Then again, maybe this is a silly and unrealistic desire that is better off jettisoned.

 

 

Thanks, jujubea. My worries about waiting until are child is a few years old are several: the longer I stay out of grad school the more unlikely it is that I'll be able to put together a compelling application with decent recommendation letters; if our child is a toddler when I start grad school, s/he will be starting to attend school while I'm in grad school and we may have less control and choice of where we can or are able to afford sending him or her to school; by the time I graduate and am searching for a job, academic or not, we will most likely have to uproot ourselves at least one more time and the earlier this happens in our child's life the better I think.

 

Do you think I'm unfounded in my worries?

 

Certainly not. But having moved several times as a child, and having come out quite successful, I wouldn't worry too much about relocating when your children are older. In my opinion, ONE move while they're very aware of things is OK. You can add an additional move when they're in kindergarten, maybe first grade, without screwing them up. In my opinion  

 

I was out of school for 7 years before applying this year, and I got in everywhere I applied to. Just kick butt with your non-school time, and take up jobs that are relevant to your field, and teach you skills along the way. If you're growing and not stagnating, you can definitely make a compelling application. 

 

We are in the same boat financially. Relocating our kids at end of middle school/beginning of high school. The hardest thing is finding good schools for them in neighborhoods we can afford. We're basically breaking the bank and borrowing from family in order to make it happen, but, a PhD is my dream, and the kids need to get out of the school district they're in, so, it's worth it for us.

[jjb919]

Another aspect to consider is the amount of time you can devote to a PhD program if you are planning on having small children.  I'm finishing up my second MA (one in political science, the other philosophy) and have had small children during both of my programs.  

 

It is not for the faint of heart.  Graduate students tend to get little sleep as it is.  Imagine being woken up every two to three hours in the middle of the night for a year or more. Arranging (and paying) for childcare and having to miss classes and events when your child is too sick for daycare or a babysitter.  

 

The sacrifice and commitment to combine a PhD in philosophy with child rearing, I think are for those who see more than just idealist value in the degree.  You have to want it for both idealistic and practical reasons and plan on giving 100% to both the program and your family.  

 

Unless - that is- you plan on saddling your wife with not only the financial responsibilities, but also the parental responsibilities.  

Thanks for your perspective, buffyfanify. I don't plan on saddling my wife with financial and parental responsibilities. We both agree that one perk of being a grad student is the flexibility so I will be able to pick up child-rearing responsibilities. I am willing to miss classes and events when needed to take care of my child.

 

I am intrigued by your point that combining a philosophy PhD and child rearing are for those who see more than just idealist value in the degree. The general consensus (maybe it's unfair of me to speak so broadly) seems to be that practical considerations in getting a philosophy PhD are not tenable with the job market as it is; the PhD has little to no practical value. So it seems to me that if there is any justification in getting a PhD it is going to be more idealistic. This is not to say that I see absolutely no practical value in it--it is necessary for continuing on the academic track as well as the higher education non-profit or foundation track--but these practical reasons alone do not stand up. If you think that the idealistic and practical reasons together don't stand up, then I think that is a good reason for not pursuing it.

 

Sorry I'm out of upvotes for the day.

[Duns Eith]

I agree with you on the skills part. The crux of my desire centers around being able to contribute to the philosophic discipline, which I don't think is possible without a PhD (maybe you do?). For at least this point I think the PhD is necessary. Then again, maybe this is a silly and unrealistic desire that is better off jettisoned.

 

 

Thanks, jujubea. My worries about waiting until are child is a few years old are several: the longer I stay out of grad school the more unlikely it is that I'll be able to put together a compelling application with decent recommendation letters; if our child is a toddler when I start grad school, s/he will be starting to attend school while I'm in grad school and we may have less control and choice of where we can or are able to afford sending him or her to school; by the time I graduate and am searching for a job, academic or not, we will most likely have to uproot ourselves at least one more time and the earlier this happens in our child's life the better I think.

 

Do you think I'm unfounded in my worries?

I have a friend (a quasi-mentor) who just finished his MA in philosophy, had a baby, and decided to wait on the PhD. He will, of course, continue to read and write in philosophy, but he sees no rush in getting into the PhD. He simply recognizes it is not practical, and he thinks the time will allow him to get a better grasp of the the material before trying to publish. He's convinced nothing is worth publication from someone under the age of 40 anyway.

 

P.S.

He is perhaps the most well-read guy I know who doesn't have a PhD.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Turretin

[Glasperlenspieler]

 It's one thing to read philosophy in one's spare time, think about it, converse with others about it now and then. It's another to be in the thick of it, able to make sustained arguments for one's philosophical views. Even if I don't get an academic job, I will not have a real stake in my field (and the potential for contributing to it) without having gone through the rigorous intellectual process of the PhD.

 

I had a professor (who was in the habit of dissuading people from going to grad school), who actually made the opposite point. According to him, once you have a BA in philosophy (and especially an MA), you have all the basic skills to be able to work through philosophical texts, arguments, and ideas on your own and still think critically about them and even contribute to the field. (this probably assumes you went to very strong programs). What a PhD allows for is to continue to practice these things and do so in a community devoted to it (there are obviously other benefits too, but this seems like the crux of it). Indeed, even if you're not in school, nothing stops you from being involved in philosophy. Most journals worth publishing in are blind review. You can still attend and even present at conferences. And if you are in the area of a major philosophy program, you can attend public lectures and maybe even get permission to audit a class or two. This obviously isn't easy while working a full time job and raising children, but it is possible.

 

 My worries about waiting until are child is a few years old are several: the longer I stay out of grad school the more unlikely it is that I'll be able to put together a compelling application with decent recommendation letters

 

There's nothing stopping you from asking your professors to write you letters of recommendations now while your skills and accomplishments are fresh in their mind and having them hold onto them until you are ready to apply. I suppose some professors might not agree to this, but it seems a lot preferable from their point of view as opposed to getting asked five years down the line and having to try and remember specifics. Likewise, if you have an opportunity to continue working on a writing sample over the course of a few years and get as much input as possible, it seems like this could only be an asset. There may be some programs that look down upon someone being out of school for that long, but if you can show continuous involvement with philosophy I would hope it wouldn't make that much difference.

 

 

All in all, I would hold off for now given your debt and desire for a child, but then again I may be somewhat faint-hearted in that regard. But if you do hold off, don't let it keep you from philosophy and take the steps so that if you do decide to go to grad school at a later date, you'll be ready.

[buffyfanify]

Thanks for your perspective, buffyfanify. I don't plan on saddling my wife with financial and parental responsibilities. We both agree that one perk of being a grad student is the flexibility so I will be able to pick up child-rearing responsibilities. I am willing to miss classes and events when needed to take care of my child.

 

I am intrigued by your point that combining a philosophy PhD and child rearing are for those who see more than just idealist value in the degree. The general consensus (maybe it's unfair of me to speak so broadly) seems to be that practical considerations in getting a philosophy PhD are not tenable with the job market as it is; the PhD has little to no practical value. So it seems to me that if there is any justification in getting a PhD it is going to be more idealistic. This is not to say that I see absolutely no practical value in it--it is necessary for continuing on the academic track as well as the higher education non-profit or foundation track--but these practical reasons alone do not stand up. If you think that the idealistic and practical reasons together don't stand up, then I think that is a good reason for not pursuing it.

 

Sorry I'm out of upvotes for the day.

 

 

Practical reasons insofar as your willingness to teach at a community college (be it TT or adjunct), your ability to teach in other disciplines (if your work is interdisciplinary), or the financial feasibility for you not to work within academia at all after getting the degree.  While the job market is horrid, I think there are certain factors that might make *an attempt* more feasible than others.  I think the idealistic *and* the practical reasons for doing so need to be present.  

 

Flexibility in terms of childcare can be a huge perk and in some regards having children can give you an edge academically.  My time management skills are leaps and bounds better than my peers without children.  When I sit down to work, that is precisely what I do.  I also think my skills in assuring accessibility of concepts and material within my intro courses is a product of being a parent.  That's not to say that one is unable to adopt certain pedagogical approaches if they are without children, but in my experience it can help.  

 

Full disclosure: I have no debt from my undergrad and graduate degrees and neither does my partner, so our financial obligations are extremely unusual for a couple with multiple degrees.  If I weren't pursuing a life in academia, I probably would be a stay-at-home parent so the risk of not having a job when all is said and done isn't a huge factor.  I also would be a potential candidate for a job in a few other disciplines outside of philosophy.  If things were different for me, I'm not sure I would be going into a program in the fall.  I might have waited a few years once the kids got a little bit older.  (One is in second grade and it is actually quite delightful talking with her about my work and philosophical ideas in general.  Also reading philosophical texts (especially Hegel, Marx, and Derrida) to a toddler makes for a good time.  In such moments, the fact that I often burn my candle from both sides seems to be insignificant and my tenacity becomes renewed).

Edited March 13, 2015 by buffyfanify

[jjb919]

Practical reasons insofar as your willingness to teach at a community college (be it TT or adjunct), your ability to teach in other disciplines (if your work is interdisciplinary), or the financial feasibility for you not to work within academia at all after getting the degree.  While the job market is horrid, I think there are certain factors that might make *an attempt* more feasible than others.  I think the idealistic *and* the practical reasons for doing so need to be present.  

 

Flexibility in terms of childcare can be a huge perk and in some regards having children can give you an edge academically.  My time management skills are leaps and bounds better than my peers without children.  When I sit down to work, that is precisely what I do.  I also think my skills in assuring accessibility of concepts and material within my intro courses is a product of being a parent.  That's not to say that one is unable to adopt certain pedagogical approaches if they are without children, but in my experience it can help.  

 

Full disclosure: I have no debt from my undergrad and graduate degrees and neither does my partner, so our financial obligations are extremely unusual for a couple with multiple degrees.  If I weren't pursuing a life in academia, I probably would be a stay-at-home parent so the risk of not having a job when all is said and done isn't a huge factor.  I also would be a potential candidate for a job in a few other disciplines outside of philosophy.  If things were different for me, I'm not sure I would be going into a program in the fall.  I might have waited a few years once the kids got a little bit older.  (One is in second grade and it is actually quite delightful talking with her about my work and philosophical ideas in general.  Also reading philosophical texts (especially Hegel, Marx, and Derrida) to a toddler makes for a good time.  In such moments, the fact that I often burn my candle from both sides seems to be insignificant and my tenacity becomes renewed).

Ah, I see better now. Yes, if I were to enroll, finish my degree, and go on the academic market, I am more than willing to take any sort of TT teaching job should I be offered one--be it CC, SLAC, state school satellite, or what have you (provided that the department itself doesn't seem like a nightmare). I am not willing to string together adjunct positions for years and years, or take multiple postdocs or VAPs that would require my family to move great distances every 1-3 years.

 

Thank you for your insight, you've given me a lot to think about.

[Duns Eith]

I had a professor (who was in the habit of dissuading people from going to grad school), who actually made the opposite point. According to him, once you have a BA in philosophy (and especially an MA), you have all the basic skills to be able to work through philosophical texts, arguments, and ideas on your own and still think critically about them and even contribute to the field. (this probably assumes you went to very strong programs). What a PhD allows for is to continue to practice these things and do so in a community devoted to it (there are obviously other benefits too, but this seems like the crux of it). Indeed, even if you're not in school, nothing stops you from being involved in philosophy. Most journals worth publishing in are blind review. You can still attend and even present at conferences. And if you are in the area of a major philosophy program, you can attend public lectures and maybe even get permission to audit a class or two. This obviously isn't easy while working a full time job and raising children, but it is possible.

 

 

There's nothing stopping you from asking your professors to write you letters of recommendations now while your skills and accomplishments are fresh in their mind and having them hold onto them until you are ready to apply. I suppose some professors might not agree to this, but it seems a lot preferable from their point of view as opposed to getting asked five years down the line and having to try and remember specifics. Likewise, if you have an opportunity to continue working on a writing sample over the course of a few years and get as much input as possible, it seems like this could only be an asset. There may be some programs that look down upon someone being out of school for that long, but if you can show continuous involvement with philosophy I would hope it wouldn't make that much difference.

 

 

All in all, I would hold off for now given your debt and desire for a child, but then again I may be somewhat faint-hearted in that regard. But if you do hold off, don't let it keep you from philosophy and take the steps so that if you do decide to go to grad school at a later date, you'll be ready.

 

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[nietzxsche]

I had a professor (who was in the habit of dissuading people from going to grad school), who actually made the opposite point. According to him, once you have a BA in philosophy (and especially an MA), you have all the basic skills to be able to work through philosophical texts, arguments, and ideas on your own and still think critically about them and even contribute to the field. (this probably assumes you went to very strong programs). What a PhD allows for is to continue to practice these things and do so in a community devoted to it (there are obviously other benefits too, but this seems like the crux of it). Indeed, even if you're not in school, nothing stops you from being involved in philosophy. Most journals worth publishing in are blind review. You can still attend and even present at conferences. And if you are in the area of a major philosophy program, you can attend public lectures and maybe even get permission to audit a class or two. This obviously isn't easy while working a full time job and raising children, but it is possible.

 

 

There's nothing stopping you from asking your professors to write you letters of recommendations now while your skills and accomplishments are fresh in their mind and having them hold onto them until you are ready to apply. I suppose some professors might not agree to this, but it seems a lot preferable from their point of view as opposed to getting asked five years down the line and having to try and remember specifics. Likewise, if you have an opportunity to continue working on a writing sample over the course of a few years and get as much input as possible, it seems like this could only be an asset. There may be some programs that look down upon someone being out of school for that long, but if you can show continuous involvement with philosophy I would hope it wouldn't make that much difference.

 

 

All in all, I would hold off for now given your debt and desire for a child, but then again I may be somewhat faint-hearted in that regard. But if you do hold off, don't let it keep you from philosophy and take the steps so that if you do decide to go to grad school at a later date, you'll be ready.

 

This isn't true given that the OP is primarily interested in continental philosophy. Having a BA means absolutely nothing but the very introduction of certain modes of thought. For Continental thought, a lot of the real work is done in graduate school. It takes a really long time and dedication to figure out what the problems are in our tradition of philosophy.

[DontFly]

This isn't true given that the OP is primarily interested in continental philosophy. Having a BA means absolutely nothing but the very introduction of certain modes of thought. For Continental thought, a lot of the real work is done in graduate school. It takes a really long time and dedication to figure out what the problems are in our tradition of philosophy.

I second this concern from the analytic side.

I think there is no harm in keeping philosophy as a hobby, and it seems reasonable to expect that someone who has learned it systematically as an undergrad is able to appreciate it more than someone who hasn't. But hoping that the kind of skills developed in private is comparable to that in grad school, let alone as a working philosopher, is a little too optimistic. At least for most people.

[overoverover]

I second this concern from the analytic side.

I think there is no harm in keeping philosophy as a hobby, and it seems reasonable to expect that someone who has learned it systematically as an undergrad is able to appreciate it more than someone who hasn't. But hoping that the kind of skills developed in private is comparable to that in grad school, let alone as a working philosopher, is a little too optimistic. At least for most people.

Yeah, philosophy is a communal discipline: you learn by talking and writing and sharing with others, thereby opening yourself up to criticism. It's hard to find this kind of atmosphere (consistently) outside of academia.

[overoverover]

I use this "philosophy is communal" line to justify going to bars with my cohort after class.