Your thoughts on where to accept?

[cogsguy]

I agree with qualiafreak. If your primary goal for getting the PhD is just the experience of doing the PhD, or if it's to teach at a community college afterwards, then go for the unranked PhD offer. But if you are looking to get a position at a research university, I think the MA gives you a better chance of getting there. My advice, in the latter case, would be to do an MA. Also, consider other options outside philosophy that would allow you to pursue your interests in case you don't get into a good PhD program out of the MA.

[Establishment]

Don't for the love of God go to an unranked PhD program if your career desires are to enter into academia.

[Duns Eith]

Depends on the quality of the unranked school. Like, whether they are a niche interest and such, or whether their placement is good even on its own terms.

I found this site helpful:

http://www.philosophynews.com/post/2013/10/02/Will-I-get-a-Job-Graduate-School-Philosophy-Placement-Records.aspx

[verificationist]

Look at the MA's placement record. If they have at least a 50% placement in top-40 schools I'd say go for it. You already know you're good enough at least to get into a funded PhD!

Edited March 29, 2015 by verificationist

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

is it one of the SPEP schools? Am I correct that many of those, while unranked on the Leiter Reports, are still good programs?

[rednegativity]

Thanks, everybody! Following all of your advice, I'm starting to lean more heavily toward the MA. Like most people on this forum, I am positive that I want a career in academic philosophy, and I would obviously prefer a tenured position in a top department. It's probably worth note that this PhD program is the *only* PhD I applied for, because I had no faith that my application from a SLAC with a modest (3.8) GPA would warrant hundreds of dollars in application fees. Needless to say, I'm starting to regret that decision.

 

is it one of the SPEP schools? Am I correct that many of those, while unranked on the Leiter Reports, are still good programs?

Yeah, it's SPEP. And in fact, at least two well-regarded book series are starting to come out of it. But since the SPEP areas I'm interested in are historical (which the analytic programs also cover), and I also have analytic tendencies in philosophy of mind and epistemology, I can find my interests in highly ranked programs. In fact I'd prefer a highly ranked program, I don't require SPEP at all.

 

Why would you have to retake GRE? Is it expiring? 

No, my scores just weren't very good. (164/158/5.5) My scores proved to be fine for MA programs and such, but they could be a red flag at certain PhD institutions, from what I understand.

 

I agree with qualiafreak. If your primary goal for getting the PhD is just the experience of doing the PhD, or if it's to teach at a community college afterwards, then go for the unranked PhD offer. But if you are looking to get a position at a research university, I think the MA gives you a better chance of getting there. My advice, in the latter case, would be to do an MA. Also, consider other options outside philosophy that would allow you to pursue your interests in case you don't get into a good PhD program out of the MA.

Right, I am worried about the risk of striking out in 2017 if I go the MA route, since many people allow that "luck" might be a very real factor in PhD applications. But then again, the risk of not finding employment in 2020 if I go the unranked PhD route seems much more dangerous.

 

 

All in all, I'm leaning toward the MA. I think that's really too bad, since I know I'd seriously prefer my time in the PhD program, but I guess you gotta play if you wanna win. And as my current adviser put it: "There'll come a day when you'll miss being in grad school, so there's no point in rushing through the best years of your life." If I go the MA route, then I hope he's right!

[sidebysondheim]

Your GRE scores are fine. Mine are lower across the board: 159/152/5.0. Granted, UNC is probably the most blatant with regards to not caring about GRE scores.

[Franzkafka]

Thanks everybody! But there's a new wrinkle in my plans!

I was just unexpectedly offered full funding to a PhD program. The school is unranked, and their placement isn't great, but it's a great fit for my interests. I also had a lovely phone conversation with a faculty member there. I would love the city/ student community/ additional fellowship opportunities /etc.

So... Unranked PhD where I would love the next 5 years of my life but maybe have trouble finding a job? Or top-5 MA program where I'd have to retake the GRE and spend an additional 2 years in school in the *hope* that I'd land a highly ranked offer in the future?

Really not sure about this.

A top-5 MA program is amazing. It must has a very good placement to PhD program. So I think taking the MA will be better. Though it's somewhat risky.

[Duns Eith]

Seems like you have already made up your mind sounds like a great opportunity! 

 

Huh. Thanks for the encouragement. I haven't decided yet, but I am definitely leaning toward WMU now.

[twinkie_eater]

Hi guys!  Long time lurker here.  I curious to get your feedback on my own situation.  I graduated a couple years ago from a national top 20 university with a top 20 PGR department with essentially a double major in philosophy and theology (that probably gives away the university).  I had a high GPA, but only a medium-high philosophy GPA (3.75ish). Anyways, in this round of applications I aimed high and didn't get into a PGR top 50, although I didn't really apply anywhere between #'s 31-50.  I did receive two funded PhD offers from unranked schools, which seem like good fits from my research interests (virtue ethics, ancient philosophy).  Included in these is the unranked school I would be most happy to attend were I to apply anywhere outside the top 50.  I was also waitlisted at Brandeis' MA (the only MA I applied to).

 

Having gone through this process, I have come to believe that my philosophy background rather than my raw academic potential may be the reason for my lack of success (as defined by getting into a top 50).  My writing sample was a version of my thesis which was done jointly in philosophy and theology and deals with both Plato and Christian Neo-Platonist ideas.  Many of the classes I took in philosophy had either a literary or theological slant to them, which meant I didn't/don't have a "traditional" philosophy term paper to draw on for a writing sample.  The choices I had besides my thesis were either too literary or too theological.  Further, my letter writers had only see my work in these types of classes, rather than types of papers or coursework which is more typical of academic philosophy, and my work for them tended to be A-.  And in general, I'm not as conversant in philosophy as I get the sense that many of you are.  On the academic potential side, I graduated Phi Beta Kappa from a top 20 and scored 168/167/5.0 on my GRE.

 

I looked at the placement information from the programs that I was admitted to and I am okay with my prospects.  If that is my only chance to get involved with academic philosophy, I've decided that I'm okay with landing a teaching position in a SLAC where graduates of these programs seem to end up.  However, I am not convinced that an unranked PhD is the best that I can do.  So it basically comes down to this: Do I

a) accept the unranked PhD or

b. apply again next year, focusing on more MA programs.

 

I think the fact that I was waitlisted at Brandeis lends some credence to that hypothesis that I have the potential, but not necessarily the background to do well in MA and hopefully, in time, PhD admissions.  If I get accepted off the waitlist, this all might be a moot point (if I can afford Brandeis).  I don't really want to go through this whole process again, however, and there is certainly no guarantee that I'll do better the next time around.

 

Thoughts?

Edited March 31, 2015 by twinkie_eater

[Duns Eith]

Or c) decline your offers, work on your (different?) writing sample, and apply again to more programs.

Or d) accept the funded PhD offer, reapply after a year or two (or after your PhD grants an MA en passant).

Not getting into the preferred schools is not an indication on your ability or potential necessarily. Part of it is the roll of the dice. It sucks to go through the application process again. I don't think what you have said, though, is any indication that you are not now PhD material).

Oh, and I'm partial to option A as well, as being accepted is awesome, and if it fits your interests/AOI, then it is preferable to an MA or reapplying.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Turretin

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

I, like you twinkie eater (lol love the screen name), have been accepted to 2 unranked phd programs, both funded offers, and while I am waitlisted at more reputable schools, I don't see those prospects coming to fruition. Of the two programs, U. of South Florida is the one that has a better placement record and the program is a stunning fit for me interest-wise. I was accepted into great MA programs that I applied to in case I got shut out of all the PhD programs I applied to. Now your situation is of course most likely different than mine- I'm older and have less time to afford to my schooling if I want to have a shot at enjoying a career at this point (I'll be 34 in August), which is a major factor in why I'm not choosing an MA in order to better my chances at being accepted at a more prestigious program at a later point. The other factor is precisely what you mentioned in your post- I am perfectly content with the prospect of teaching philosophy at a small liberal arts college after receiving my PhD. The irony is that having come from an unknown, tiny liberal arts college is what I believe to have been a detrimental factor in my admissions process, but I truly did enjoy my undergraduate experience; the setting was intimate and there was a genuine camaraderie between the professors and students. I don't need prestige to factor into my professional legacy. I just want to teach philosophy and publish. I am hoping that we can accomplish such goals with such phd programs. 

[sidebysondheim]

I don't need prestige to factor into my professional legacy. I just want to teach philosophy and publish. I am hoping that we can accomplish such goals with such phd programs. 

 

My undergraduate advisor's PhD advisor wrote a seminal work in Hume scholarship while at Univ. of Utah. He gave my professor this advice: you can do good philosophy anywhere. Granted he got his PhD at Yale and is now the chair at NYU, the advice is still good advice to remember.

[riverstyx]

I, like you twinkie eater (lol love the screen name), have been accepted to 2 unranked phd programs, both funded offers, and while I am waitlisted at more reputable schools, I don't see those prospects coming to fruition. Of the two programs, U. of South Florida is the one that has a better placement record and the program is a stunning fit for me interest-wise. I was accepted into great MA programs that I applied to in case I got shut out of all the PhD programs I applied to. Now your situation is of course most likely different than mine- I'm older and have less time to afford to my schooling if I want to have a shot at enjoying a career at this point (I'll be 34 in August), which is a major factor in why I'm not choosing an MA in order to better my chances at being accepted at a more prestigious program at a later point. The other factor is precisely what you mentioned in your post- I am perfectly content with the prospect of teaching philosophy at a small liberal arts college after receiving my PhD. The irony is that having come from an unknown, tiny liberal arts college is what I believe to have been a detrimental factor in my admissions process, but I truly did enjoy my undergraduate experience; the setting was intimate and there was a genuine camaraderie between the professors and students. I don't need prestige to factor into my professional legacy. I just want to teach philosophy and publish. I am hoping that we can accomplish such goals with such phd programs. 

How come you don't see either of your two wait list offers coming to fruition? Will you wait until April 15th to make up your mind?

[Establishment]

My undergraduate advisor's PhD advisor wrote a seminal work in Hume scholarship while at Univ. of Utah. He gave my professor this advice: you can do good philosophy anywhere.

 

That sounds like the PhD advisor is (relatively) old. The philosophy job market is not what it used to be just a few decades ago, where it wasn't uncommon for a student to get a BA and PhD from the same place and then go off to some nice university with a TT position.

[flickering.light]

Hello, long time lurker here. Looking for some advice on my specific situation, and this looked like the thread for it.

 

I've narrowed my options down to 2.

 

Option A is a terminal MA program that is highly ranked (top 5) and very highly ranked in my AOI (top 2). There are multiple well known faculty there that I would love to work with. I feel that attending this program would enable me to not only grow as a philosopher, but also to improve my application exponentially and enable me to gain admission into a top-tier program. However, my undergraduate records are less-than stellar so I worry that even the best MA program in the world wouldn't get me admitted into a T10 University.

 

Option B is a PhD program ranked in the 30s on the PGR. This is respectable but I know how important prestige is and I wonder if I could do better. Granted, the school really is good, has good (but not great) placement. That is, they consistently place students into post-docs or professorships, but I haven't seen many get placed into professorships in T50 schools. Is this an unrealistic expectation anyway?

 

 

I keep getting different advice from different people whom I trust and that are informed about the general climate of philosophy admissions.

 

On the one hand, I feel lucky to be admitted to Option B given my not so great undergraduate career. My worst fear is choosing option A, and then getting in either somewhere worse than Option B or into nowhere at all. Even looking at Option A shows that many graduating students go on to schools like Option B or even, sometimes, worse.

 

BUT they also (and I think I could, too) often go to places much better than Option B. If I settle with Option B now, I will never know if I could have done better. Further, the time spent at the MA program would be valuable in a sense even if at the end of it I did end up going with Option B, I will have made more connections, fine tuned my abilities, and ultimately be ready for the rigor that is a PhD program.

 

 

I know in the end the choice is my own. But I would gladly accept any and all opinions on the matter. For example, are there any of you who would like to slap me for considering denying a T50 program with really good placement? Am I being greedy? Or, do you think I could do better after the MA (given the little information I've provided)?

Edited April 1, 2015 by flickering.light

[perpetuavix]

That is, they consistently place students into post-docs or professorships, but I haven't seen many get placed into professorships in T50 schools. Is this an unrealistic expectation anyway?

Yes. The job market is awful, so measuring the success of a department by the number of placements into ranked schools is untenable. Even NYU doesn't place every graduate into a ranked department. 

 

Maybe this isn't the case but by saying that, it makes it sound like you want a job like that, or would only accept a job like that. If that is true, then I would suggest the Masters program. If you want to work at a ranked school, it's a rule of thumb that departments will hire up in prestige, not down, so yes, you probably do need to go to a higher ranked school. The Masters program will give you a path to that. But, as you say, you also might get into nowhere or get in somewhere 'worse'. If you can accept that as a possibility, then you can gamble on the Masters' program.

[wandajune]

BUT they also (and I think I could, too) often go to places much better than Option B. If I settle with Option B now, I will never know if I could have done better.

 

I think this feeling of "Could I have done better?" is pretty inescapable in graduate admissions, excluding those who are lucky enough to get into their top choice. "Could I have done better if I had only used another writing sample? If I had only applied to more top programs? Etc."  Attending the MA might give you the chance to do a bit better next time around (and it might not), but if you go with the PhD, my advice is to just be careful with that counterfactual thinking. Be happy and proud about where you end up.

[flickering.light]

Thank you. I don't mean to sound pretentious. I would be perfectly ok with working at a community college.  And of course I would feel very lucky to get any tenure track placement, given the market.  I'm just trying to determine which option has the greatest probability of "success," measured not only "prestige" of job prospects but by the quality of philosophers I am able to work with and the work I will be enabled to do given my environment (both of which I suspect would correlate with rankings). Of course it is possible I could enter the MA and get in nowhere, I'm just really, really unsure just how likely this is........

 

On the whole I guess it's a personal choice since I'll need to decide whether the risk is worth the gamble. I'm just not even sure how big of a risk it is.

[flickering.light]

I think this feeling of "Could I have done better?" is pretty inescapable in graduate admissions, excluding those who are lucky enough to get into their top choice. "Could I have done better if I had only used another writing sample? If I had only applied to more top programs? Etc."  Attending the MA might give you the chance to do a bit better next time around (and it might not), but if you go with the PhD, my advice is to just be careful with that counterfactual thinking. Be happy and proud about where you end up.

Oh yes, I definitely agree. I haven't visited the PhD program yet but a big part of my decision will hinge on the visit. If I am really happy there and feel I can accept the offer "wholeheartedly," as it were, I will do it. Decisions like this are painstaking but once they are made there is no point wondering what-if, you are right.

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

How come you don't see either of your two wait list offers coming to fruition? Will you wait until April 15th to make up your mind?

Well Purdue told me that my chances of being accepted off the waitlist was low, and I know that UW-Madison's waitlist is notoriously long, so I'm just not too hopeful at this point. But yes I am waiting until April 15th!

[riverstyx]

Well Purdue told me that my chances of being accepted off the waitlist was low, and I know that UW-Madison's waitlist is notoriously long, so I'm just not too hopeful at this point. But yes I am waiting until April 15th!

I'm in the same boat as you regarding my wait lists. I got in to Syracuse (wait-listed for funding), and I am wait-listed at Miami, CUNY, and Wisconsin. I think either CUNY or Miami are my best prospects so far, though I'm hoping to get into CUNY over Miami. As for Wisconsin, yes, they have a long wait list, but there are a lot of changes going on there, and so that may influence people's decisions on whether to attend or not. Who knows. But for me things will likely go down to the wire. Good luck!

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

I'm in the same boat as you regarding my wait lists. I got in to Syracuse (wait-listed for funding), and I am wait-listed at Miami, CUNY, and Wisconsin. I think either CUNY or Miami are my best prospects so far, though I'm hoping to get into CUNY over Miami. As for Wisconsin, yes, they have a long wait list, but there are a lot of changes going on there, and so that may influence people's decisions on whether to attend or not. Who knows. But for me things will likely go down to the wire. Good luck!

oh wow that is so much tension! CUNY would be simply amazing to get into, and Miami would be incredible too- I can see why you are so tense! Thanks for the wishes, hoping for the best for you as well! I just hope these next two weeks go by as quick as they can so we can know our fate and start preparing for our paths!

[twinkie_eater]

Thanks to those of you who gave me your thoughts!  Here's a general question, with perhaps some relevance to me.  How true is it in terms of job placement that "oil rises to the top."  Do talented people come from top programs because the program made them that way or because they were talented to begin with?  As I write this, I realize its probably a case of both nature and nurture.  But supposed somebody was talented enough to go to NYU (i.e. was admitted) and opted to go with unranked PhD instead.  Could we expect him/her to do pretty well in terms of job placement?

 

I guess as this applies to my own case, is there reason to believe that I'll sort of "naturally" (with a lot of hard work, of course) end up placed with a job which reflects my potential?  (Note: I do not claim to have high potential, I merely mean a place that reflects my talent whatever that is.)   I guess can I (and flickering.light and the rest of us) have lest angst about getting into a top program and this concern for getting admitted into the best place we possibly can?  Can we have some hope that things will work themselves out in the end, the oil will separate from the water, and we'll end up with a job in a place that is on our level in the end?

 

Interestingly, I was looking at the placement for one of the unranked PhD's I was admitted to, and one of its graduates recently was hired at my alma mater (a top 20 department).  That's by far an exception, rather than the norm, but it does show you that outstanding talent isn't going to be kept down.

[philstudent1991]

Thanks to those of you who gave me your thoughts!  Here's a general question, with perhaps some relevance to me.  How true is it in terms of job placement that "oil rises to the top."  Do talented people come from top programs because the program made them that way or because they were talented to begin with?  As I write this, I realize its probably a case of both nature and nurture.  But supposed somebody was talented enough to go to NYU (i.e. was admitted) and opted to go with unranked PhD instead.  Could we expect him/her to do pretty well in terms of job placement?

 

I guess as this applies to my own case, is there reason to believe that I'll sort of "naturally" (with a lot of hard work, of course) end up placed with a job which reflects my potential?  (Note: I do not claim to have high potential, I merely mean a place that reflects my talent whatever that is.)   I guess can I (and flickering.light and the rest of us) have lest angst about getting into a top program and this concern for getting admitted into the best place we possibly can?  Can we have some hope that things will work themselves out in the end, the oil will separate from the water, and we'll end up with a job in a place that is on our level in the end?

 

Interestingly, I was looking at the placement for one of the unranked PhD's I was admitted to, and one of its graduates recently was hired at my alma mater (a top 20 department).  That's by far an exception, rather than the norm, but it does show you that outstanding talent isn't going to be kept down.

Not really true, just because when jobs get 300+ applicants, they aren't going to do the work that would be needed to really figure out who the very best is. They will be happy with "pretty good." And whatever raw talent one has going into grad school, being developed by faculty is hugely important, and while I'm the last person that would say only highly ranked programs have goo faculty, overall you are likely to get better professional development at a highly research active, plugged in department.