Is it impossible to get into top rated grad schools?

[ladygrey]

Hi all, 

I am planning to pursue PhD in I/O psychology, or Organizational Behavior. 

Since my school, Hunter College in NYC (City School), has no IO or OB professors, I want to get some advice from you. 

 

I know the field of IO is really small, and getting into top rated grad schools like Michigan State University or Penn State University is extremely competitive. 

It seems like OB is comparably larger than IO, but then, getting into top rated OB grad programs like Harvard or Stanford is also extremely competitive.

 

Here is the thing.

I was talking to my friend (who has no knowledge of IO or OB fields), and she basically told me that I would have absolutely no chance of getting into the top rated programs because of extreme competence and small acceptance rate. 

 

Is it seriously THAT IMPOSSIBLE to get into top rated PhD programs? Do you have to be an extra extra extra extraordinary student who shined throughout your whole academic years, and have at least five research experiences or published papers, and aced in ivy leagues or equivalently prestigious undergrad schools?

 

Here is my background:

School: City college in New York, Hunter College

Year: turning Senior this fall

Major: Psychology, plus Honors program

Minor: Stats, Math

Cumulative GPA: 3.9

Major GPA: 3.96

GPA in Junior year: not sure but got 1 B+, 2 As, 6 A+s. (It seems like many grad schools give more emphasis on junior/senior GPA). 

TA Experience: 1 semester for psych course

RA Experience: haven't done yet, but HAVE to do at least 1 year for honors program requirement

Honors thesis: haven't done yet, but HAVE to write for honors program requirement

GRE: haven't taken yet, but am confident (not in conceded way) that I can do well

 

I know I lack RA experience because I was so busy taking part time jobs, and my concern is that I won't have honors thesis or 1 year of RA experience done before I apply for grad programs.

 

How competent am I? Is it impossible for me to go to top IO or OB PhD programs?

Please give me your advice and share your thoughts.

 

Thank you

Edited June 13, 2015 by ladygrey

[constant_wanderer]

Lady Grey,

 

I'll give you an example. This fall will be my 3rd season of applications. Two undergraduate degrees, 2nd (psych) degree overall GPA 9.4/10 (Canadian), 1 sole-author publication (journal impact factor above), 1 conference presentation, 2.5 years of research experience in three labs (not counting the honours thesis), 3 years of clinical experience, GRE: 170V, 161Q, 6AW; 790Psych. Rejected from 10+ schools on first round, 4 on second round, having applied everywhere in terms of geography and rankings (as long as research interests were similar).

 

Maybe I/O is less competitive than clinical, but I'm just giving you an idea. 

[ladygrey]

Lady Grey,

I'll give you an example. This fall will be my 3rd season of applications. Two undergraduate degrees, 2nd (psych) degree overall GPA 9.4/10 (Canadian), 1 sole-author publication (journal impact factor above), 1 conference presentation, 2.5 years of research experience in three labs (not counting the honours thesis), 3 years of clinical experience, GRE: 170V, 161Q, 6AW; 790Psych. Rejected from 10+ schools on first round, 4 on second round, having applied everywhere in terms of geography and rankings (as long as research interests were similar).

Maybe I/O is less competitive than clinical, but I'm just giving you an idea.

Constant Wanderer,

I do not know how hard it is to get into clinical psych programs, but the fact that this is your third year applying tells me that it really is hard to get into clinical psych programs. To be honest, I cannot believe that you are rejected by programs with your clinical experiences and scores. Is it that normal for people like you with such experiences get rejected? I mean, how much more do programs look for especially those freshly graduated from undergrad?

I hope this year would be your year, and good luck!

Edited June 13, 2015 by ladygrey

[_kita]

Constant Wanderer,

I do not know how hard it is to get into clinical psych programs, but the fact that this is your third year applying tells me that it really is hard to get into clinical psych programs. To be honest, I cannot believe that you are rejected by programs with your clinical experiences and scores. Is it that normal for people like you with such experiences get rejected? I mean, how much more do programs look for especially those freshly graduated from undergrad?

I hope this year would be your year, and good luck!

 

Yes, clinical is incredibly hard. A department can accept as little as 3-10 people for an academic year. Depending on which faculty member needs researchers, they may be able to accept 1 new applicant. Most of these programs have well over 300 applicants. So the odds are slim. Most of the competitive applicants have strong scores, research experience and some work experiences. The committee needs to know what the applicant wants to do with those experiences. And based on that knowledge, they determine if you are the best fit for their program. You have to be qualified, but qualification has little to do with the end result. 

 

Look into your I/O programs. See what their acceptance rate is, who is getting the funding, and what you want to explore. It will be more difficult since you haven't done any research yet, but you'll get a better gauge of what your chances are.

[Jay's Brain]

To be honest, I think competitive programs such as I/O or Clinical Psychology can fall very much on the cohort you are applying with. Sometimes you just run out of luck and the people applying just fit better (not an exact science but I fell on both ends this past application cycle). Another possibility, and one that constant_wanderer didn't address is perhaps how specialized his or her research interests are with the PIs and programs applied to. Both their profile and yours show a lot of merit that will be benefiting of someone in their respective career fields. Your minors in Statistics and Mathematics may help you a lot in the long run too. The only thing that you may be lacking, and one that is looked at considerably, is more relevant research. Make sure your honours thesis studies something related to I/O or OB.

 

When casting your nets for graduate school, also consider wider options that are similar but doesn't have to be exactly the same as your research interests. Things can change in grad school. For example, my initial research interest applying this past year cumulated in getting acceptances at 3/5 schools. The program that I eventually accepted is not exactly what I envisioned myself doing months before when writing my SOPs, CV, etc., but it is still something within the field I'm very much excited to learn more about. Mind you, I only have a few manuscripts in progress and a couple of presentations too even with my 3+ years of research experience.

 

I think if you show more promise in what you're interested in doing (be firm about that, because grad schools don't like it when you're not entirely sure) then you have just as much of a chance to succeed!

Good luck

[ladygrey]

Yes, clinical is incredibly hard. A department can accept as little as 3-10 people for an academic year. Depending on which faculty member needs researchers, they may be able to accept 1 new applicant. Most of these programs have well over 300 applicants. So the odds are slim. Most of the competitive applicants have strong scores, research experience and some work experiences. The committee needs to know what the applicant wants to do with those experiences. And based on that knowledge, they determine if you are the best fit for their program. You have to be qualified, but qualification has little to do with the end result. 

 

Look into your I/O programs. See what their acceptance rate is, who is getting the funding, and what you want to explore. It will be more difficult since you haven't done any research yet, but you'll get a better gauge of what your chances are.

 

Psychkita,

I've been looking I/O programs, and there aren't that many to begin with... They too normally pick handful of students only, but not as competitive as clinical psych. OB programs seem to accept more students per academic year, but I look at the profiles of alumni and they all have strong backgrounds from top undergrad schools. At this point, I think it is a better idea for me to not apply to grad school right after graduation, and rather gain more research experience. I doubt I can beat the other applicants who have strong scores, research experience, and work experiences. 

Thanks for your advice.

[ladygrey]

To be honest, I think competitive programs such as I/O or Clinical Psychology can fall very much on the cohort you are applying with. Sometimes you just run out of luck and the people applying just fit better (not an exact science but I fell on both ends this past application cycle). Another possibility, and one that constant_wanderer didn't address is perhaps how specialized his or her research interests are with the PIs and programs applied to. Both their profile and yours show a lot of merit that will be benefiting of someone in their respective career fields. Your minors in Statistics and Mathematics may help you a lot in the long run too. The only thing that you may be lacking, and one that is looked at considerably, is more relevant research. Make sure your honours thesis studies something related to I/O or OB.

 

When casting your nets for graduate school, also consider wider options that are similar but doesn't have to be exactly the same as your research interests. Things can change in grad school. For example, my initial research interest applying this past year cumulated in getting acceptances at 3/5 schools. The program that I eventually accepted is not exactly what I envisioned myself doing months before when writing my SOPs, CV, etc., but it is still something within the field I'm very much excited to learn more about. Mind you, I only have a few manuscripts in progress and a couple of presentations too even with my 3+ years of research experience.

 

I think if you show more promise in what you're interested in doing (be firm about that, because grad schools don't like it when you're not entirely sure) then you have just as much of a chance to succeed!

Good luck

 

Jay's Brain,

Thank you for your kind words. Based on what you say, luck seems to play a role in getting accepted by programs. Of course, other components such as research experiences are much more important than luck itself. Many candidates have different background, one may have much stronger background than the other, but we never know until the end who gets in. I guess it depends on the faculty members, whether they view the candidates as the best fit for the program or not.

 

May luck be on my side!

[avidman]

Lady Grey,

 

I'll give you an example. This fall will be my 3rd season of applications. Two undergraduate degrees, 2nd (psych) degree overall GPA 9.4/10 (Canadian), 1 sole-author publication (journal impact factor above), 1 conference presentation, 2.5 years of research experience in three labs (not counting the honours thesis), 3 years of clinical experience, GRE: 170V, 161Q, 6AW; 790Psych. Rejected from 10+ schools on first round, 4 on second round, having applied everywhere in terms of geography and rankings (as long as research interests were similar).

 

Maybe I/O is less competitive than clinical, but I'm just giving you an idea. 

Sorry, after hearing that I am a bit in awe.

 

Did you every receive feedback as to why you were rejected? Based on your creds, you seem to be very competitive. That said, I have friends who on paper are less competitive than you and got into pretty good clinical programs (multiple in fact). Are you secretly a vampire (or something that would disqualify you from the admission pool)?

 

@ Lady Grey

 

Here is my advice to you:

 - Get research/clinical experience (most important imo)

 - Get 160+ on GRE for verbal/quant (if you can't, prioritize verbal)

 - Meet people. Networking is super important/often necessary in order to get into graduate school. At the end of the day, many people applying will have credentials similar to yours. When that happens, you have to rely on best of fit, luck, and networking. If there are conferences nearby and if you know about a person you want to apply to, go there and meet them. It helps.

 

Anyway, good luck!

[mb712]

I think a lot of people here are clinical or social, which are basically the two most competitive graduate fields that exist. So, you're going to be met with a lot of (rightful & warranted) cynicism when asking these types of questions. Just keep that in mind, and I say this as someone who applied to a lot of social psych programs.

I have a friend who got into a top 10 I/O program with stats a little less impressive than yours and one year of research experience. He also had research interests hat fit perfectly with people at the program so as someone said above, fit is important. In my personal opinion, I think it's always good for people in psychology to have research experience before graduate school not only because you probably won't get in otherwise, but also because graduate school IS research and unless you're clinical then your career will be too. What if you start and realize you hate research or it's just not your thing?

Something you may want to consider: instead of emailing faculty this fall to ask if they're accepting graduate students next year, email and ask if there are RA opportunities available for recent graduates. You might luck out and find an I/O person who has work you can do for a year until you apply for graduate school. You could even start emailing now and see if anybody in your area has an opportunity for undergrads that you can take on in addition to whatever you're doing for your thesis.

FWIW, I don't think it's outlandish for you to apply this year. It's competitive, yes, but it will always be competitive. If you're confident in your interests and talk to faculty you want to apply with and they give you the green light, no harm in trying, right?

[Munashi]

To be honest, I think competitive programs such as I/O or Clinical Psychology can fall very much on the cohort you are applying with. Sometimes you just run out of luck and the people applying just fit better (not an exact science but I fell on both ends this past application cycle). Another possibility, and one that constant_wanderer didn't address is perhaps how specialized his or her research interests are with the PIs and programs applied to. Both their profile and yours show a lot of merit that will be benefiting of someone in their respective career fields. Your minors in Statistics and Mathematics may help you a lot in the long run too. The only thing that you may be lacking, and one that is looked at considerably, is more relevant research. Make sure your honours thesis studies something related to I/O or OB.

 

When casting your nets for graduate school, also consider wider options that are similar but doesn't have to be exactly the same as your research interests. Things can change in grad school. For example, my initial research interest applying this past year cumulated in getting acceptances at 3/5 schools. The program that I eventually accepted is not exactly what I envisioned myself doing months before when writing my SOPs, CV, etc., but it is still something within the field I'm very much excited to learn more about. Mind you, I only have a few manuscripts in progress and a couple of presentations too even with my 3+ years of research experience.

 

I think if you show more promise in what you're interested in doing (be firm about that, because grad schools don't like it when you're not entirely sure) then you have just as much of a chance to succeed!

Good luck

 

I think a lot of this is very true.  Stats are one thing, but most people applying to programs in I/O like Michigan State and Penn State are going to have great stats.  In the end, it comes down to fit.  Research fit with the faculty (1-2 matches per program is fine), your career goals' fit with the program's orientation (academic?  practitioner?  A balanced approach?), who else is applying that year, some demonstration that you know what you're getting yourself involved with (both in terms of I/O and research in general.  Most programs know I/O experience and courses aren't available, but make sure you're letting them know that you're educating yourself with textbooks and some top I/O-OB-Management journals).  If you haven't finished your year of RA or your thesis, make sure you still mention that you're doing it.

 

It all depends and it varies widely by program.  You may not get into a "top program", not everyone does, but that may not matter.  I think as you begin thinking about applying, my advice would be to focus less on "get into top program!!1~1!" and spend more time figuring out which programs are a match with you and your goals.  Where are the faculty that match interests with you?  Do you want a program that's purely academic in focus or do you want more of a scientist/practitioner balance?  Is the program a match with your mentorship needs/what kind of mentoring model do they use (do you belong to one faculty or the whole department?  Some places won't allow you to work with more than one person, others require that you do so)?  Who would be able to offer you solid funding based on historical trends?  Once you're in, also ask: is the program a fit culturally?  If you are not hyper-competitive, stay away from a competitive environment and find one that is more collaborative/supportive.  And again, who is offering the best funding?  Funding maybe "shouldn't" be the end-all, be-all but it is a huge factor for most of us.

 

Also, just be aware - you may not get in the first time you apply.  Or maybe you'll only get into a program you realize you aren't as excited about as you thought.  That's okay.  Try again in another year, it's not the giant failure some people make it out to be.  Sometimes a small break is a blessing you didn't know you needed.  ALWAYS strive to success - but be cool with needing to try again.  I forget who said it, but seriously, the key to success is a high tolerance for failure.

 

If you want to apply to a top program?  GO FOR IT.  I'm an advocate of attempts.  My stats and background are quite different from yours, but I will say that the places I got accepted to were "better ranked" places than where I was rejected... and -surprise- the fit was better at the top places.  You never know how the dice are going to fall.  It truly is a crapshoot.

 

If you have more questions, feel free to PM me.  For what it's worth, your stats background will probably be attractive.  The biggest issue is lack of research experience, so learn as much as you can in the mean time and emphasize what you have already done/are doing in your personal statements.

[SocialHealth]

I agree with all that has been said above. See if you can get into a research program over your break, may be too late but you could volunteer in a lab in your area. IMO research experience is very important. Also the recommendation letters you can get from those experiences which will speak to your ability to do research etc is very important. Fit is also another important factor, so start networking and speaking to professors early. Have informational interviews with some of your potential POIs if at all possible (Email, phone call, etc). I had coffee with one of mine (he lived in the area).

 

it's competitve and there is a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time involved. Just try and make sure everything else is in place so that you can be the recipient of that luck without worrying about anything else.

 

 

Best of luck,

 

Steven  

[juilletmercredi]

I think that you are otherwise competitive, but when you apply you'll have only just started doing research, and that will put you at a disadvantage.

[Wrellie]

Ladygrey,

 

There is a lot of good information here. I disagree with some of it (if you want to go I/O do not stress verbal on GRE over quant), but most of it is really good. I was accepted into both top 10 I/O programs I applied to this past year (I only say this so you know it is possible) and want to add a couple things.

 

First, do research immediately. It doesn't matter if it is as an RA on a project that has nothing to do with your interests or your thesis. The more research you have done, the better. Also, ask yourself "why do I want a Ph.D."? You might find you absolutely hate doing research. In which case, you will find that out quickly and spare yourself a ton of time you can spend doing something you like.

 

Second, it is way more important that you find out what kind of research you want to be doing, and then find which professors do that kind of work. I/O psychologists are very familiar with the concept of person-job fit, and your graduate studies will essentially be a job working with and for your advisor. If you don't know what you want to do yet for research, there is no way you can tell where you should apply. If you want to apply to Michigan State and Minnesota because they are the top ranked universities, the selection committee will know that when you apply. If you want to work with Paul Sackett at Minnesota because you have experienced low diversity populations in all your part-time jobs and this led to several negative incidents; thus you now think that studying diversity in the workplace is something you are destined to do for the rest of your life, they'll probably be able to tell that too. You might have noticed I said both top 10 schools. I only applied to 2, because I spent at least a month researching every professor who did something similar to what I wanted to study. That knocked out 8 of the top 10 schools from my list (well 7, but one did not respond to my initial email inquiry so I axed that school because at some point, you are going to be chopping schools off so you don't spend $5000 on applications).

 

Lastly, study your ass off for the GRE. You typed "not to sound conceded". It's "conceited". Do not make these errors on the GRE or in any correspondence you have with potential schools. Many people blame bad GRE scores on many things. Don't be that person. Study now and study hard. My potential advisor made sure I was aware of what I would need for scores to get into a top school (90th percentile in both). So I studied, and got those scores. It might not get you in anywhere, but it can definitely keep you out. Also, I/O acceptance at top schools is as competitive as all the other disciplines including clinical psychology. It's likely if you are applying to a top I/O school that their selection is even more competitive than the other disciplines at that school, so if it is what you really want, start now and go hard.

[UMG]

Just a few things to add and emphasize. As a disclaimer, I was just accepted into a top 10 IO program after 2 rounds of applications, and know much more about IO than OB. Also this probably applies more to doctoral than masters programs.

Although IO and OB doctoral programs overlap a lot in content, I've heard (albeit anecdotally) that there are some significant differences. Namely, that an IO education will prepare you for a career in academia or in the applied world fairly equally (minus a few very specific schools), whereas most OBs go academic. I've also heard that OB programs tend to accept more students, knowing a decent percent will be "weeded out" and drop out after the first year, whereas IO programs expect most, if not all to stay in the program.

As far as your admissions qualifications, even though Hunters isn't an Ivey league school, it's still part of CUNY, and you have really good grades. Pair that with 90th percentile GREs and you'll be in good shape as far as numbers go (Quant is by far most the most valued, but all need to be good). The honors thesis helps a lot too. But, as your research experience is a bit lacking, I would suggest that you do everything you can to expand your research horizons ASAP. Not only will this help your CV, and get you better letters of rec, but it will also really help to show you which areas of psychology, or more specific IO niche areas, that interest you. As others have mentioned, this will also help guide which schools you apply to and what you write in your personal statement, which is a BIG factor for IO, and I imagine OB admissions too. Since most doctoral programs only accept a few students, the professors want to make sure that you actually LIKE doing research and that will stick with it, and you convey your personality and research/program-fit in your statement.

In my first round of applications, I didn't really do my homework, and applied to 17 schools, MA and PhD. I only got into 1 MA and decided not to accept. I knew I liked IO in general, so I applied broadly and wrote a broad personal statement, which looking back was a total waste of time and money. Schools are looking for student that know what topics they want to study, and their passion about researching them should be obvious! The second time around, after gaining more research experience, I knew I wanted to find a program and professor that was doing OHP research. I contacted each professor before applying to briefly introduce myself and ask if they were accepting a student for the next round of applications. After I weeded out those that were on sabbatical or who weren't taking a student, I wrote a custom statement for each school - the first 80% or so was the same for all schools, the last 20% addresses why I was applying to XYZ school and wanted to work with ABC professor. I ended up getting into 5 or 6/10.

Last piece of advice, if I were in your shoes, if your schedule allows, I would look up the faculty members in Baruch's IO program, and identify a few that interest you. Read a paper or two that they published recently. If you are still interested, write a short email to them, saying you like their work on XZY and want to go into IO, and want more research experience. Attach your CV and ask if you can work for them as a volunteer RA. Be brief but show that you actually want to work with them specifically. The worst they can say is no, and if it all works out, they might even be willing to write you a letter of rec down the line, and if you plan on applying to Baruch's program, there's nothing that will boost your chances more than having faculty members on your side.

[UMG]

Also, check out SIOP.org if you haven't yet. They have loads of info on IO, including a database of all programs and advice on how to choose them. There are a few articles that discuss how to use school rankings, as undergrad vs grad school rankings mean totally different things, and should thus be weighed differently, IMO.

[JoePianist]

To answer the topic title: yes, it's impossible.