Lotar Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Hi there, I've been reading up matters involving conflicts between grad students and their supervisors, as I am a PhD student and my supervisor revealed last week (pretty much out of the blue) that she hates me and wants to fire me. This came as a complete surprise, as at the start of last week I had just returned from a holiday (that she had approved) and I had thought things were going pretty well before my holiday. I've been too stressed out and ill to discuss this with friends yet, so hence I thought I'd try putting it up here to see what others think. Apologies for the long post, it takes a while to explain the details so you will know exactly what the situation is - I've tried not to be biased. Here's the story: I am studying for a PhD in computational chemistry. after only 7 months working on my PhD, we have been preparing a very large manuscript for JACS based largely on my results and those of an experimental colleague. So I thought I can't be doing too badly. The only thing my supervisor has warned me about is lateness to the lab. I admit to having been late a few times, that's my fault and I accept it (even if it is due to illness or forgetting to set my alarm clock etc.), but I do computational chemistry, and I work as late as I need to in the evening, so physically it makes virtually no difference when I arrive. Also, she hasn't adequately defined what "late" is, apart from that I should arrive before her. But even this is inconsistent - the last time she told me off for lateness, I actually arrived at the lab about a minute before she did (she saw me walking in to the building as she pulled up in the car park), but on another occasion I saw her driving in and waved good morning, and we didn't have any problems then. I would have thought that great results on the plus side with occasional lateness on the downside wouldn't make me a candidate for being fired, and this is how I thought things were before I took my holiday. So before I went away, having approved my holidays with my supervisor beforehand, I tied up loose ends with regards to the paper, sent all the relevant data to my supervisor, and I told her that if there were any problems, she could just email me and I'd be able to respond. So with that I go away on holiday, thinking that everything is OK. Two weeks later I arrive back in Spain (I'm British and I study in Spain). My flight was delayed, so while I was hoping to arrive on Sunday evening, I in fact arrived very early on Monday morning, and having had an all-round stressful journey, I didn't get to sleep until about 8:00am on Monday morning, so naturally I decided to take the day off to rest and just come back in on Tuesday. On Monday afternoon, after I woke up, I started to check through any emails I might have missed over the break, and I find one from my group's secretary, asking me if I am OK, so I reply, apologise for the slow response, and I explain that I wouldn't be in any fit state to work on Monday, but would be there the next day. She replies and says that's fine, and wishes me a good rest. I come to the lab on Tuesday morning, and I just pick up where I left off, I check my calculations, work on a poster for a conference, read over some papers etc. I notice my supervisor isn't talking to me, but she can be busy, so I figure it would be best not to bother her, and wait for her to be ready to discuss my work. This goes on until Friday afternoon, when she calls me to her office. I print out my latest results, bring my notebook, and head over, expecting to discuss scientific matters. Instead, after we sit down, she starts yelling at me about not being in on Monday. I explain the situation, with the delayed flight, and so then she says that it would have been fine if I had let them know in advance, but of course, I was trying to catch up on sleep when apparently I should have been hurrying to tell them that I was sleep deprived and wouldn't be in the lab. Going to my PC to send a bunch of emails isn't what you do when you're exhausted after spending all day stuck on planes and buses. So then she goes on to something else. She complains that I hadn't completed a relevant form for a student discount for a conference we're going to. This I admit is true - I'd completely forgotten as I was working on the paper. As it turns out, everyone bar one of my colleagues had also forgotten. So, my supervisor sends the conference organisers an email on behalf of all of my colleagues (but not me) asking for the discount. She didn't say why she did this, it must have been purely out of spite. I can't understand why, as she's wasting her own money, just to make my life difficult. The she goes on about the lateness (I hadn't been late since arriving back after my holiday, so I'm a little unsure as to why we didn't discuss this before I went away), and then drops the bomb that she's considering firing me and I've got three months to get my act together. Naturally, I was horrified at this - I was hoping that we were just going to discuss my results. Eventually we did get onto the scientific matters, I presented some nice new results, and then we discussed the stuff we're going to start tomorrow (which she blamed me for not starting earlier in the week "because I wasn't in the lab", but of course I was there from Tuesday and she could have spoken to me at any time during the week). So in the end I make a grovelling apology, promise to be a good boy, and go back to my desk white as a sheet. Can any of you make sense of this? I was completely shocked by this discussion, for as far as I was aware, my occasional tardiness was the only issue, and I don't think that's a good enough reason to fire a student who has produced a lot of good results in a short time frame. As for the conference discount form, if everyone else forgot, why am I the only one being threatened with losing my post for it? It was an honest mistake, I just forgot, and besides, she could have just sent me an angry email while I was on holiday, which I would have read and just sorted it out. I received precisely zero emails from her. And as for taking the day after my flight off, there was absolutely no indication that this is was a problem. And if the lateness was so much of an issue, then why didn't we discuss this before I went on holiday? Why did she even let me go on holiday, if my lateness was such a problem that she would consider firing me? I think she has done this purely as a spiteful intimidation tactic. I've been quite stressed out and physically ill with an undiagnosed abdomial problem since March (she doesn't know this, I'm having a gastroscopy in a few weeks), so I was trying my best to keep on going until we had most of the paper manuscript finished before asking for a holiday. Now I feel physically even worse (I've not left my bed all weekend with the pain), and even more stressed than before, and I feel like I've wasted two weeks of my limited holiday time. When she was shouting at me, she even complained that I've taken too many holidays, despite the fact that I haven't had a single day off (apart from illness) since Christmas, and she approved my holidays in advance. I have a colleague who has been here for two months less than me who has taken more holidays than I have, and will be taking even more in the summer, so compared to this colleague, I haven't had much time off at all. Any advice? Sorry for the long post, but I just needed to get this off my chest. I haven't told anyone else about this yet. I was seriously considering resigning, but today I'm feeling that I should stick at it, as just giving up would make it way too easy for her. It looks like she deliberately let me go on holiday just so that she could prepare this nasty surprise for my return. OK, so I have made a few infractions, but she made no previous indication that I was going to be fired for it, and she seems to have completely ignored the fact that what will probably be her biggest paper of 2015 is almost entirely composed of my work (the computational stuff, that is, I'm not counting the experimental side which our colleagues abroad are handling). I haven't a clue what employment law is like in Spain, so I have no idea if I have any legal recourse. Thanks in advance for any comments, I appreciate advice and support.
fuzzylogician Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 It seems clear that as far as your advisor is concerned, there is a problem that goes beyond being late to the lab a few times. Based on what you describe, I would guess the problem is that she views you as irresponsible in general - you're late to the lab, you don't show up without any notice, once you're back you don't let her know even though you have results she should know about, you forget to get a discount that will end up costing her money, you take too much vacation time. For you, these are unrelated minor incidents and some of it may not even be true. For her, each individual action may not be a problem (as evidenced by the fact that your colleagues may do one or the other and -- to your knowledge -- not be reprimanded for it), but viewed in tandem there is a worrisome pattern here. As I see it, there are three options here. You may decide to share with her that you are having a medical problem that has been affecting your work, that you were not going to disclose to her but now you realize it may have affected your work and you apologize for that. You may (instead or in addition) simply request a meeting and ask for her help improving -- concentrating specifically on what she thinks the problem is, because a major issue here is that you are not sure what the problem is and therefore what behaviors might indicate that you are doing things right/wrong. Or, you might just put your head down and work. What she said may or may not have been a threat. She might have said it in the heat of the moment not realizing the effect it would have on you -- which is also terrible but is a different problem. In the longer run, you could decide you need to change advisors and labs, and that could be something to start thinking about, though I think right now it's premature. My first thought is that it would be good to find someone to talk to who has a better perspective than us. Is there anyone in the lab who is more experienced who you feel comfortable talking to? If you can find such a person, it could be very helpful in giving you some perspective. Is this behavior unheard of? Is it something she sometimes does absentmindedly without meaning much? Is tardiness something she is particularly sensitive about? Is there some previous story of difficulty involving someone who was (perceived as being) irresponsible in some ways? Knowing that will help you decide how to deal with this situation. TakeruK and ssynny 2
Lotar Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 Thanks for the advice. I agree, I've not been perfect. There are some things I need to work on. The problem I'm having is how she is dealing with it. On the matter of lateness, I have been late a few times due to carelessness, however, the majority of the time it has been because I have woken up feeling unwell. Personally, I think it's better to hurry up to the lab a bit late as soon as I feel well enough, rather than taking the whole morning off, calling in sick etc., which is what I'm now considering next time I wake up feeling ill. But the problem I have is that I have no idea of what counts as "late" or not, she seems to make it up as she goes along, as my anecdote about the two different outcomes when she saw me arrive at the same time as her demonstrates. The fact of the matter is, that she isn't exactly an early bird and doesn't have an regular arrival time (she turns up somewhere between 10:00am and 11:00am everyday), so to say I should "arrive before her" really is a bad criterion. I'd feel much better if she just gave me a time she'd like me to arrive by, but in doing so she would have to admit she is "late" everyday, as it would inevitably be quite some time before she has arrived, and she wouldn't want to do that (especially given she is always the first one to leave, at 6:00pm exactly, when students stay as long as they need to). She has warned me about lateness before, but what I object to is the rapid escalation from a warning to being threatened with termination. There are definitely a few steps in between these two disciplinary extremes. I think she clearly decided she wanted to do this to me when I returned from my break, I'm just insulted that she "hides" how she feels about this until after I've taken a break just to make me feel bad. If we had a full and frank discussion before I took my holiday, I would have delayed taking a break and got my act together. On the matter of the conference discount, again, it's my fault for forgetting, that I accept, what I don't understand is why she deliberately excluded me her message asking for the discount for all of my other colleagues who have forgotten. This has only cost her money because she chose for it to cost her money. It's an invented bad outcome to an existing problem, which she could have solved (like she did for everyone else) or I could have solved with a brief reminder. As for the results, this is the usual mode of business - she's normally got a full schedule and usually comes to me to ask me when we can meet, so it's not odd for me to have to wait for a few days before she can fit me in. She also never reads my emails, which makes arranging a meeting difficult sometimes. It's also because she is quite intimidating in general - I really don't want to knock on her door when she's busy as she'd probably try to fire me for that. As for the vacation time, this is something she has completel constructed from fiction - she always says that our group doesn't have to follow the "official" holiday schedule as she has arranged with human resources that she will deal with this directly - therefore, if she approves it, it's fine. Saying that I have taken too much vacation time is a pure ad hoc modification of her owne rules to make me look bad (a bit like the lateness rules she has). It's also definitely true that my slightly junior colleague has taken much more time on vacation than me - my colleague usually tells me when she goes away as we are friends. I'm happy that my colleague seems to have as much time off as she likes, but it really isn't fair if what is OK for one group member is not OK for me (and only whenever my supervisor feels like it). I agree, I have made a series of mistakes. However, I think if you look at anybody's work record and only look the the mistakes, one would find something very similar. I'm on time 95% of the time, I usually complete admin tasks as well as I do my academic work, and I don't take excessive holidays. I think she should also consider my not inconsiderable academic output (virtually all of my colleagues said they were well into their second year before a publication became a likely possibility). As for the medical issue, I believe I am legally entitled not to reveal my problems to her - obviously I don't know what the problem is at the moment, but it could result in anything from a course of antibiotics to major surgery. I don't exactly want my supervisor to know that in the next few months, I might be rendered incapacitated (if, and I hope this is not the case, it is something serious), as she would just find a reason to get rid of me before I need to take time off to recover to avoid providing sick pay. However, I was considering mentioning it, in the hope that she might realise that some of my errors have been due to illness and retract her aggresive threat, but she's much too cold-hearted for that. I was considering asking for a meeting, as you suggest, and perhaps we can clarify some points, but again, I don't know if this will help. As you can probably gather, she is something of a woman of contradictions, and if I openly said that I am confused because of her contradictory ways, I don't think she would like that. It's hard for me to ask, for example, when I should arrive without suggesting that there are clear problems with her "arrive before me" policy, or to ask how many holidays I can or should have without pointing out that she has a much more lax attitude towards other group members. I think she'd just fire me for "challenging" her, although I hasten to add, I don't want to challenge her, I just want to find out what the hell is going on inside her head so I can't upset her. I don't think she said it in the heat of the moment, I think she planned exactly when to break this news to upset me as much as possible - leaving it until after my holiday, on the last day of the week so that I would have time to "settle in" after returning. That doesn't mean it isn't an "empty" threat though. I think it's entirely possible that she doesn't intend to fire me (that would involve some paperwork, and of course I would be appealing against it), and that she just wanted to upset me, but on the other hand, she could be deadly serious, I just don't know. I am really enjoying my research and the field I am working in is right up my street (hence my rapid academic progress), so I really don't want to look into switching. Also, she is the only person at my institute that does the work I am interested in, so if I was to move, I'd have to go to a new insitute in a new town, which would involve just as much upheaval as getting sacked, so it's not desirable. I'm definitely going to stick at it for a while longer, maybe she will soften slightly if the paper we are working on is as well-received as we expect it to be. I have a tendancy to be a little paranoid, I usually keep it under control, but when people behave in a hostile manner towards me I can't help but wonder if they have ulterior motives. For example, part of me worries that she's just trying to get me out of the way so she can take full credit for the work that I basically did alone. I know this thought is probably a little crazy, but professors stealing the work of their students is not unheard of, and I wouldn't put it past her. I agree, I'd get a better response from people who know us both, but at the same time, I don't want to appear that I am whining about it. I can accept my faults, if I'm not good enough then she should get rid of me, what I object to is the childish and cruel way she's going about this. I also don't want to talk too much with my colleagues, as it could drive us apart. I get on very well with my colleagues, I regard virtually all of them as friends, but if they find out that my supervisor want my head, they might distance themselves from me in fear of being fired themselves for associating with me, and I don't want to be the office leper for the rest of my PhD (if I last that long), or be responsible for my colleagues getting in trouble. I've also received no social calls since I've been back in Spain; maybe this is a coincidence, but I wonder if she has told people or otherwise convinced people while I was on vacation to stay away from me. She does have a reputation, before this incident however I was under the impression that she was not as bad as everyone was saying. For 7 months, apart from two verbal warnings about lateness, separated by several months, we've had a stable, professional relationship. I'd go as far as to say I have enjoyed working with my supervisor, when she's not having a tantrum. This is why I am so surprised at this recent revelation. As I said before, it's not that I don't accept my faults, I'm just confused as to how our working relationship can go from OK to terrible in virtually an instant. Anyway, thanks for your response, I appreciate your honesty. Hopefully I'll be able to work out a strategy to deal with this.
fuzzylogician Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Listen, you are trying to explain away each incident as a separate issue. First off, you are absolutely under no obligation to explain anything to anyone here, including me. Second, my guess above (and that is all it is, to be clear) is that even if you think these are separate incidents, to her they form a pattern. You are certainly under no obligation to disclose any medical condition to her, it was a suggestion along with several others that you should only take up if you are comfortable doing so. You are also not under any obligation to talk to anyone in your lab, that's again something you could think about if there is anyone you are comfortable consulting with who would not think you are just whining and would not disclose your story to others without your consent. Absent that, the best we can do here is guess and extrapolate based on your story and our experience, and there is a good chance we'll get some details wrong or misjudge parts of the situation. I worry about some language you are using here ("I am insulted that...", "childish and cruel way..." etc). I understand you are hurt right now, so the best thing to do is to take a few days to cool off and collect your thoughts. If there is no one else to talk to about this to gain perspective, you might need to talk to her again. Yes, if you say you are "confused because of her contradictory ways" you won't get very far. I am sure she is perfectly consistent in her behavior in her own eyes. Your goal should be to understand what that logic is, and whether you can follow it reasonably well. Accept that she is the one with the power in this relationship and it's unlikely that you can change how she behaves. You can work on changing her perception of you, but you can only do that with a level headed approach, not by blaming her for everything -- regardless of who is actually at fault. Really, you can only change your own behavior. Either you can figure out what she thinks the problem is and get suggestions from her on how to improve, or if you can't do that, then I unfortunately don't see things improving here. firewitch, mop, TakeruK and 3 others 6
rising_star Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Okay, you need to stop trying to rationalize about your lateness. It doesn't matter what time your supervisor comes in or that she is always the first one to leave. (For all you know, she puts in 2-3 hours of work at home in the evening, just like you say you do. Not that it matters whether this is the case, btw.) She has the PhD and the lab and the credentials that you are working hard to obtain right now. You should be adhering to a more typical lab schedule, which in my experience means coming in by 9 or 9:30am and leaving when the work is done, though ideally around 6pm. 9am-6pm with a lunch break is a standard 8 hour work schedule. I agree with fuzzy about your language, you trying to explain away each thing, and your failure to recognize that this is a pattern. Think of it this way. If you were teaching a class and a student was sometimes late but sometimes wasn't, what would you think? You'd likely conclude the student has a problem getting up in the morning and you probably wouldn't count on that student to start class. (I'm speaking entirely from my experience teaching students who claim 9:30am is early and are late more than a couple times a semester. Yes, to me, it's a pattern. And it irritates me and means that they miss part of class, which then means I have to repeat stuff just for them, which is irritating to me.) I can understand why your supervisor is irritated with your performance based on what you describe. It is not childish to expect students to be on time, to work productively, and to set up reminder lists so they don't forget important things like conference discounts. To me, you need to change your behavior. Show your dedication to the work you say you love by getting to the lab before her and leaving after her. If you are too ill to come in, let her know that as soon as you know it (but also don't expect any special accommodations for being sick). It is not childish to expect students to be on time or to tell you if they cannot come in as you expect them to do.* I think it would behoove you to start thinking of and treating this like a job. Your supervisor is your boss and your boss needs to be pleased with your performance. Right now, she isn't and has provided you with some concrete reasons why. What are you going to do to modify your behavior so that she is no longer displeased? *Quick aside. If a student ever said to me that it was childish to expect them to be on time or let me know when they can't come to class, I would laugh out loud. You know why? Because only someone that is acting like a child would ever say that to their supervisor/professor/boss. There are expectations and you either meet them or you don't. It really is that simple. MangoSmoothie, TakeruK, firewitch and 2 others 5
Lotar Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 Thanks again for your responses (thanks also to the new reply). Apologies if I appear to be trying to explain everything away, I just want it to be known how things are. Of course, I am not under obligation to explain anything, but I need to explain what is the case and how I feel about it to get useful information. I understand your point, she cleary sees these points as being related - perhaps they reflect some of my less noble personality traits. I can be forgetful, and I can get very wrapped up in my work to the point of neglecting admin duties. But I hope you may agree, if people were only judged on their negative qualities, then there wouldn't be much hope for many of us. I am very passionate about science, I work hard when I'm at my desk (even if I'm there a minute later than I should be) and I try to be helpful and accommodating to my colleagues. I've spent a fair amount of my time away from my research to help other colleagues, and there have been times when I have been accommodating to my supervisor when she has been what you may term irresponsible. For example, there have been more times than I can count when my supervisor has arranged to meet with me, either forgotten or not bothered, then came to my desk and said "oh, can we meet tomorrow". My response is always "sure, no problem". I don't think it is unfair for people to consider both good and bad points of other, especially when we're talking about lives and careers. Let me clarify my language: when I use the words "childish and cruel", I am not referring to the objections my supervisor has to me - of course it isn't childish to expect students to be in on time. To suggest as much, Rising_Star, is absurd. That is entirely fair, I reiterate, I accept my failings. What is, in my opinion, childish, is deliberately complicating things for me. Do you not think that it is childish that my supervisor excluded me from her message to the conference organisers, when she was happy to act on behalf of everyone else? I also think it is childish to ignore somebody and not to inform them of imminently losing their post. Like my supervisor allowing me to go on holiday and then spend a week working, thinking that there was no problem, before delivering this news. Adults inform each other of their problems with each other in a fair and frank way, and they certainly don't delay it to cause maximum harm. I think it is fair to say it is cruel to lead me to believe that there was no problem and that we would be simply discussing my work, before suddenly starting to yell at me Rising_Star, thanks for your comment, I appreciate that it must be frustrating for students to arrive at your classes late - of course, this means you have to repeat yourself. But this is completely different. My supervisor usually spends the first 30-60 minutes of her day chatting with other professors and reading her emails. My work is pretty much independent of hers, apart from when we meet to discuss it, usually in the afternoon about once per week. I am not trying to justify being late, I agree, it is a problem I need to work on. But I hope you can appreciate it is very frustrating to me that all of the effort I put into bringing fascinating new results to the table (and there are rarely times when I haven't made significant progress between weeks) is disregarded because I didn't happen to be in the office while supervisor was chatting. Thanks again for your helpful responses, if there is anything else I can clarify, do let me know.
rising_star Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Here's the thing, Lotar. You're the junior person. You don't get to nitpick about what your supervisor does when she starts her day or during her day. That is NOT your place. Not at all. The sooner you stop doing that, the better off you'll be. I mean that completely seriously. You are not her equal. You may be one day, once you have a PhD, a lab, and the funding to support graduate students but, right now, you're years away from that. Years. You need to remember that. To me, what happened is that your supervisor decided to let you know her concerns. She's giving you 3 months to right the ship, so to speak. There's nothing childish about that. If she wanted you gone, she could've just fired you right away. She didn't. So stop trying to make her out to be the bad guy in this and start figuring out what you need to do to make this supervisory relationship work. Taeyers, mop and fuzzylogician 3
fuzzylogician Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 I think you are still not getting it. You are comparing yourself to her, but there is no basis for comparison. She is the one who has proven herself, has a PhD, and is running a lab. You are a trainee, and you are not allowed to do everything that she is. It's none of your business if she spends time talking to other professors or checking her email. You are also ascribing all kinds of ill intent to her. She deliberately waited to talk to you to hurt you the most. She deliberately kept you off the email to the conference coordinators. Is there any evidence to support these claims? Usually in these situations the professor has other things on their mind other than inflicting maximum pain on a student. Since she waited until Friday I wouldn't be surprised if she was trying to give you a chance to approach her and fix what you've broken, and you failed to act on it. Frankly, I don't think it's too much to ask that a student send a quick email to let me know they are not coming into the lab after a vacation; a quick 'hey, my flight got delayed and I only got in this morning. I didn't get much sleep so I'm going to take the day off to recover and will be in tomorrow morning' was probably all you needed. Then you didn't apologize to her or say anything about your new results for another three days. Maybe by that point she was pissed. I would be. She's giving you a chance to fix things now; I'd take it, and stop trying to blame her for everything. mop, MangoSmoothie, rising_star and 2 others 5
random_grad Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 As for the medical issue, I believe I am legally entitled not to reveal my problems to her - obviously I don't know what the problem is at the moment, but it could result in anything from a course of antibiotics to major surgery. I don't exactly want my supervisor to know that in the next few months, I might be rendered incapacitated (if, and I hope this is not the case, it is something serious), as she would just find a reason to get rid of me before I need to take time off to recover to avoid providing sick pay. However, I was considering mentioning it, in the hope that she might realise that some of my errors have been due to illness and retract her aggresive threat, but she's much too cold-hearted for that. This is a very good point. I've seen it happen that someone is fired for some minor thing while it's really to avoid the burden of major illness and absence. You don't have to and should not reveal the details of your medical issue, but any employer is entitled to get a doctor's note if you miss work. FYI: Please keep in mind that "tired" is just not a good enough reason to justify missing a day of work. Especially if it's without notice! I mean, how hard can it be to shoot a 2-line email and then go to sleep. Not doing so is called no-show/no-call and can be reason for firing someone in the non-academic job world, so it's no surprise that it angers a supervisor. I understand that you are frustrated. But what you cite as inconsistency in telling you that you should not be late is rather a very natural desire of not being the police officer who points it out every time it happens. You say she wants you to be in before her, but that she is not consistent in when she arrives. and yet, you cite a pretty precise moment of the day when she arrives: 10-11. Clearly, the solution is to arrive at 9.30. If you can't do that, you need a valid explanation to give to her (doctor's note), not apologize which from her point of view are empty words. imo the guessing game regarding why she's angry is not gonna lead you anywhere. I've found that it is best to clarify the situation with other people - which does not mean saying all you think about it. Set up a meeting with her, saying you want to change your behaviour. Jot down the list of issues that you think need fixing (lateness etc.). Ask for confirmation, what else you need to work on. Devise specific solutions for each point. Ask whether this would be adequate. Have it all in writing by email, so that if she still fires you for some unclear or new reason, you can potentially bring the issue to the attention of director of the department. Show remorse and honest desire to change. Do not try to justify yourself. Be very diplomatic. And then follow through on your plan to change. Taeyers 1
bsharpe269 Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 There is a pretty wide range in expectations from supervisors from what I have seen. For example, my advisor doesn't care when/where I work as long as I show up to the meeting with sufficient results. It sounds like you would work very well with this kind of supervisor. You seem motivated to do your work but not a fan of having to adhere to a rigid schedule. Some people work better with the rigid schedule. Your advisor clearly wants you to stick to the sort of schedule that you would have in a non academic job. For you to work well with this boss then you will have to be willing to stick to a traditional work schedule. She wants you to treat this position as you would any other job... that means getting into the lab on time and being there Mon-Fri. If you feel ill or can't come into work for some reason then you should contact her immediately like you would any other boss. I agree with random_grad that the easy solution to the tardiness problem is to get to the lab around 9:30. That seems like a reasonable time to start the work day and you should always beat your advisor in. I definitely understand why your boss would be upset about you skipping out on work without telling her. I think she actually took it rather well. In many jobs you would get fired without a second chance for skipping out on work without calling or at least emailing. From what you have written, those seem to be the two main issues. I agree with others that I don't think your advisor waited until the Friday after your vacation to mean. It sounds like she was upset that you skipped out on work and never said anything to her about it and after a few days, called you into her office to talk about it. That seems reasonable to me. Her expectations do seem pretty intense to me compared to advisors that I have worked with. They don't seem unreasonable though. I think you just need to view your work like you would a non academic if you want to be successful with her. random_grad 1
GeoDUDE! Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Something I did with my advisor is go over her expectations for me for every quarter. It turns out my advisor doesn't care how or when I do it as long as everything in the quarter gets done. It sounds like you haven't done this, and it might be a good thing to do for your next meeting: send her an email before hand, reacting to her comment that you might get fired. You obviously want to continue to work with her, but you need to know what your up against. It seems like you are just assuming people think like you: That is wrong. dr. t 1
St Andrews Lynx Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 There are two ways to look at a PhD program: either it's a job, or it's a lifestyle. With a "lifestyle" it doesn't really matter what time you get to the office/lab (or if you work from home) or if you decide to take a long weekend and work late the following night to catch up: all that matters is that you get results and make satisfactory progress. With the "job" mindset it becomes different. You're expected to work a set number of hours, to be in seen the office/lab 5 or 6 days per week during those hours, and that any working from home/taking half a day to go to the doctor should be cleared in advance with your boss. It sounds as if you view your PhD as a "lifestyle" while your boss views it more as a "job". The fact she's talking about "firing" you (rather than "asking you to leave") means that she views you as a contracted employee with professional obligations. I think that you will have to disclose something about your medical condition - even if it is only the fact that you have a medical condition (I've no idea what Spanish laws are surrounding medical disclosures, it would be good to find out how much of your privacy is legally protected). It would also be helpful to ask your boss directly what steps you need to take to avoid being fired. During that conversation don't make any excuses or try to argue - swallow your pride, nod and take careful notes. At the end of the conversation summarise the main points to make sure that you both understand your expectations. Then go away and enact those changes. If she tells you something non-specific such as "you always arrive late" then either ask for specific expectation ("Is 9.30am an acceptable time to arrive?") or go away and observe when the other group members arrive (if they are all at their desks by 8.30am, then you know the standard you should meet). As a final point. Sometimes people pin their reasonings on the nearest substantial object. When your boss tells you that her motivation for firing you is "you are always late", it might not be the whole truth. Perhaps she senses a general problem with a lack of respect or professionalism from you, or that you don't fit in with the rest of the lab in some way that is hard to define. When she talks about lateness, it might just be putting her finger on the most visible, tangible symptom. It's hard to tell.
TakeruK Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 While I sympathize with the frustration that you must be feeling thinking that you are doing well and then suddenly finding out that you are close to being fired, I agree with everyone else above that you need to make a few big changes and have some important and direct conversations with your supervisor. I agree with the others that you need to change your perspective on these conflicts. While I usually argue that students and supervisors should be more collegial, I usually mean it in terms of scientific opinions (i.e. a professor should not simply dismiss a student's scientific argument because they are a student instead of on the academic merits). In this case, when it comes to work expectations, your supervisor should set the standard and you should strive to meet it. They are the boss and you are the employee. As others said, you don't get to judge their own schedule and you don't get to question their motivations or decisions because you likely don't know all of the details. Just to provide a few examples. It's just as easy for us to rationalize your supervisor's actions as for you to rationalize your own. 1. The professor's schedule: As others said, they might be working late. One professor I worked for usually comes in around 11am, leaves at 4pm, cooks dinner, spends time with his kids at home, puts them to bed, and then works again from 9pm to 2am (I can tell from the timing of his emails). In any case, it's not up to you to judge them, and they are perfectly right to insist that you work from X am to Y pm while they follow a different schedule. 2. Not including you on that email: She could have forgotten, or she might not have known you did not submit the form when she first wrote that email. Or, perhaps all of your colleagues, when they realised they had forgotten the form, they informed the professor. It sounds like you only realised you forgot this form when she confronted you about it in her office. I think it is very irresponsible of you to forget it so much that your supervisor had to remind you. I also think it is irresponsible for you to call it a problem "which she could have solved". No. It is a problem that is your responsibility to solve, not hers (she might have solved it for others because they asked her for help, and how do you know that she didn't get upset at them too). You failed to do this task, and these are the consequences. 3. Being upset at you for not showing up on that Monday: This is 100% your fault and it is a serious infraction, in my opinion. During all those delays, it would have taken you 10 minutes to send an email to your professor letting her know that your flight had been delayed, including the time it would have taken to figure out whatever crappy WiFi the airport you were stuck in were using. As someone else mentioned, in most jobs, you will lose your job for failing to show up without notice. 4. Lack of communication: This is also on you. Communication is definitely a two-way street and I do think that perhaps you are both at fault here. But, it is certainly your responsibility to ensure you meet with your supervisor at timely intervals. You should not always be waiting for her to schedule a meeting. You should take the initiative sometimes too! 5. The "surprise" ultimatum: I don't think she is doing this to get back at you or because she hates you. It is really hard to fire someone or even have the tough conversation to tell them to get their act together! It might help to read this: https://tenureshewrote.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/can-we-measure-a-lab-members-productivity/. The reason it might have taken so long to have this conversation with you was because it is a hard thing to do and because she might have had to get the right documentation together so that she can protect herself in case she does need to fire you and the split doesn't go well. --> There is no reason to purposely plan a meeting just to upset you. Even if she just wanted to make your life miserable, she would have upset you and then fired you right there. Why would she give you 3 months to get your act together if she didn't actually want you to do so? This is why in most jobs, when you are fired with two weeks notice, you actually are asked to leave right away and they'll just pay you 2 weeks after your termination date. No point having you stick around if they want to get rid of you. Okay, I am sorry to sound like I am piling on and blaming a lot of things on you. I just wanted to show that just as you have tried to rationalize your actions, you can easily rationalize hers as well. I also want to echo St Andrews Lynx's final statement about the "most recent/tangible symptom". Here's what I think the main problems are (from the point of view of a neutral third party) and how you can address them: There are misunderstanding of expectations. Specifically, the whole lateness thing. You need to come back to her office, tell her you have thought about what she said over the weekend and let her know that you are ready to fix this issue. Come up with a solution and a way to keep yourself accountable. For example, you might suggest that you will now be in the lab from 9:30am to 6pm (or whatever is appropriate) and suggest that you keep a logsheet. Maybe even buy a notebook and start on Monday June 15. You don't have to show it to her every week, but just keep it in the lab so that 1) you keep yourself on track and 2) you show that you are taking responsibility for this. I think it is very important that you come up with the solution and you keep yourself accountable. Sincerely show that you are taking this advice to heart and are taking efforts to fix it. There is a lack of communication. I think you need to take the initiative and talk to your supervisor more often. I am surprised to hear that once you did not show up for work that Monday and that the admin assistant had to personally call/email you to ask what was wrong, you did not immediately check in with the professor first thing Tuesday morning. When you meet with her this week to discuss your tardiness, perhaps you can ask to have a regular meeting time scheduled as well? Maybe once every 2 weeks if weekly does not work out for your busy lab. If this is not possible, then take the initiative and knock on her door or send her more than one email to schedule a meeting when you need to see her. (Sorry to be blunt but) Your actions have been irresponsible and unreliable. Not just the actions that you told us about, but the way you portray them here seems like you aren't really taking responsibility for your actions. You say that you accept you've made the series of mistakes, but you aren't accepting the consequence. I do not think it is unreasonable to fire you for the mistakes you've mentioned here. I think giving you a warning and a deadline to get things together is a fair result. I strongly encourage you to stop making excuses, stop rationalizing, accept that this warning to be fired is the correct consequence for your actions and move on from there. As to your medical condition, I agree that you are not obligated to say details. But you do have to say that such a condition exist if you want it to be factored into their evaluation of you. Again, as you and others said, check with the laws that govern you. At my school, we have sick leave. We do need to disclose that we have to take leave for a medical reason but we do not have to prove it or disclose any of the details (i.e. the type of illness etc.) It is not unreasonable to expect you to say that you need medical leave though. Good luck! dr. t, rising_star, St Andrews Lynx and 1 other 4
Lotar Posted June 15, 2015 Author Posted June 15, 2015 Dear all, thanks for all the responses (obviously I've been working today and not had a chance to read all of them until now). I appreciate the honesty from all of you, it's helpful to gain a perspective on this. I agree, I have screwed up, there are some things I need to work on. I didn't speak with my supervisor today (she said we would do on Friday after the aformentioned meeting, to discuss scientific matters, but didn't arrange to speak with me), so I'm considering sending an email tomorrow morning asking to talk about it (as I don't want to be accused of wasting another week) and I'm considering asking if we can just go over exactly what the problem is and how it can be solved in a completely unemotional and rational way. Still, I'm not sure if she will just view this as further insubordination. Yes, I'm very cross and upset about this, but deep down all I want to know is where it all went wrong. I think I may be safer just trying to work out what to do myself and not give her any further excuses. I'm resolving to arrive before 10am to avoid any further lateness issues, and I'm going to be careful to notify all relevant parties if I am indeed unable to attend work. For the record though, when I was unable to show up on Monday, I arrived at my flat very early in the morning and didn't fall asleep until 8:00am. My flat doesn't have an proper internet connection at the moment, so I've been using the city's free wifi network (dealing with Spanish telecoms companies is a nightmare), but the free network only operates from 9:00am until midnight, it's switched off throughout the early morning. As I don't have a telephone, there would be no way for me to contact my institute, unless I woke up especially at 9:00 to send an email, which would not really suggest that I was in a bad state. I know, it sounds like an excuse, but it is the truth. I strongly agree with the comments that part of the issue is that I see myself as a student while she sees me as an employee - I guess as a grad student you're both in some ways. I didn't have any problems at all with my Masters supervisor, he managed to be an excellent scientist and a generally approachable guy. I do think though, espcecially with a topic like computational chemistry, the more student-esque, less rigid framework is better - you actually can work from home without any disadvantage if you have an internet connection, and it's a more efficient use of computational resources if people are not all trying to use them at the same time. In fact, we have this problem in our office - because we're virtually forced to be in working 10 till 6 at the very least, the cluster is really busy during the day. If you go on at the weekend or 2:00am, it's much better. If we didn't have a rigid schedule, then people would, I think, more naturally adapt to work at times that suit them and the cluster queue around the clock, and we'd spend less time sitting around in the afternoon looking for other things to do because the cluster is full. Just my opinion, and that of my Masters supervisor as well, as he very much promoted this kind of approach so we weren't all competing for resources at the same time. On the matter of my supervisor being cruel, I know I'm upset about this, but she does have a serious reputation as an unpleasant person. Ironically, before this event, I'd be the one saying "come on, she's not that bad!" when my colleagues and friends were complaining about how she behaves, as up until now, apart from the occasional comment about lateness, we got on pretty well. Now I'm totally with them, having been given the full treatment myself. fuzzylogician, she did deliberately keep me off the mailing list to the conference coordinators. Her actual words were: "I sent an email to the conference organisers on behalf of all of the others who forgot, except for you", takes a half second pause, and carries on. I know, the other suggestions that she wants me to suffer could be in my imagination, but it's hard for me to understand why she would exclude me from the email, when she was prepared to do it for all of the other who forgot. Anyway, I'm going to try to mend my ways. Whether it should be me or her who should be changing, it's irrelevant, as this is the only way that I can "win", if you could call it that. I still feel that she hasn't really addressed this in the right way, though. She even admitted (months ago when we were on good terms, if we actually were), that she would probably get more out of me by working with me rather than against me, so deep down she knows that I would respond better a firm chat rather than a surprise yelling-at. But it is true, I need to improve some aspects of my work life. Thanks again for all the help and advice, it is much appreciated. Feel free to add anything else, I'll ask again if I have any further questions or requests for advice.
TakeruK Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Since you invited additional thoughts: I think I may be safer just trying to work out what to do myself and not give her any further excuses. I'm resolving to arrive before 10am to avoid any further lateness issues, and I'm going to be careful to notify all relevant parties if I am indeed unable to attend work. For the record though, when I was unable to show up on Monday, I arrived at my flat very early in the morning and didn't fall asleep until 8:00am. My flat doesn't have an proper internet connection at the moment, so I've been using the city's free wifi network (dealing with Spanish telecoms companies is a nightmare), but the free network only operates from 9:00am until midnight, it's switched off throughout the early morning. As I don't have a telephone, there would be no way for me to contact my institute, unless I woke up especially at 9:00 to send an email, which would not really suggest that I was in a bad state. I know, it sounds like an excuse, but it is the truth. You said you are going to meet with her this week and that's a good idea. You definitely should bring up the timing expectations though. From this paragraph, it sounds like you have just decided that arriving before 10am should be good enough. But you really do need to clarify your professor's expectations. What if they actually expect you to arrive by 9am? Don't just assume 10am is good enough and then be surprised in a few months when they are still upset at you. Take the initiative and clarify the expectations. For the Monday no-show thing, you said your flight on Sunday evening was delayed. Between finding out your flight was delayed and arriving at your flat early Monday morning, there must have been a way for you to get in touch with someone about your inability to arrive! I strongly agree with the comments that part of the issue is that I see myself as a student while she sees me as an employee - I guess as a grad student you're both in some ways. I didn't have any problems at all with my Masters supervisor, he managed to be an excellent scientist and a generally approachable guy. I do think though, espcecially with a topic like computational chemistry, the more student-esque, less rigid framework is better - you actually can work from home without any disadvantage if you have an internet connection, and it's a more efficient use of computational resources if people are not all trying to use them at the same time. In fact, we have this problem in our office - because we're virtually forced to be in working 10 till 6 at the very least, the cluster is really busy during the day. If you go on at the weekend or 2:00am, it's much better. If we didn't have a rigid schedule, then people would, I think, more naturally adapt to work at times that suit them and the cluster queue around the clock, and we'd spend less time sitting around in the afternoon looking for other things to do because the cluster is full. Just my opinion, and that of my Masters supervisor as well, as he very much promoted this kind of approach so we weren't all competing for resources at the same time. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. In fact, I agree with your opinion because I prefer to have the option of a flexible schedule too. Your professor's opinion seems to be different. However, your professor's opinion is the only one that matters. You and her are not equals here and you do not automatically get to provide your opinion or your input on how her lab should be run. Your professor is the PI. She is the boss. She is not your Masters' supervisor. Your opinion/preference and your Masters supervisor's opinions and preferences do not apply in your professor's lab. I feel like one major hurdle you must learn to get over is that you still somehow feel that you are right and your professor is wrong. Here, it is just a difference of opinion and preference and since it's your professor's lab, only her opinion/preferences count. Each person in academia is different--you can't assume what worked well in your MSc program will work well in your PhD program. This is why I think advisor fit is so important and I personally made sure that all of my advisors and I have a good personality/expectation match. You also have to be a little flexible, since during the course of your career, you will have many different supervisors and they will all have different expectations. On the matter of my supervisor being cruel, I know I'm upset about this, but she does have a serious reputation as an unpleasant person. Ironically, before this event, I'd be the one saying "come on, she's not that bad!" when my colleagues and friends were complaining about how she behaves, as up until now, apart from the occasional comment about lateness, we got on pretty well. Now I'm totally with them, having been given the full treatment myself. Sometimes warnings from older students with experience are true. But sometimes, it's a confirmation bias thing. And I've experienced double standards in "unpleasantness"--I've found that people tend to use less pleasant words to describe female leaders than they would if a man did the same thing. So now, whenever I hear opinions of people, I try to consider whether unconscious bias have formed part of it. Honestly, from the description here, told only from your point of view, I still think the professor did nothing unpleasant or unreasonable. Anyway, I'm going to try to mend my ways. Whether it should be me or her who should be changing, it's irrelevant, as this is the only way that I can "win", if you could call it that. I still feel that she hasn't really addressed this in the right way, though. She even admitted (months ago when we were on good terms, if we actually were), that she would probably get more out of me by working with me rather than against me, so deep down she knows that I would respond better a firm chat rather than a surprise yelling-at. But it is true, I need to improve some aspects of my work life. Thanks again for all the help and advice, it is much appreciated. Feel free to add anything else, I'll ask again if I have any further questions or requests for advice. Again, as I said in the above post and in this same post, I think the very fact that you still consider it might be her that needs changing demonstrates there is still a problem in your approach. When you say things like "she knows I would respond better to a firm chat than a surprise yelling-at", you are viewing this as "This is the type of person I am, people have to mold their ways around me". However, why aren't you viewing it as "This is the type of lab that my PI wants to run. I must mold my ways around my supervisor's expectations" ? Somehow, you have decided that you are more important than your supervisor, and that everything, even criticism of your faults, must suit you. Even though she is the one with the PhD, the one with the lab management experience, the one that earned her job, the one that won the funding to start her lab. Of course, there should be some balance, not one of these two extremes. But you are still so far on the "PI should change to suit me" side when based on qualification and status, the balance really should be more on the "student changes to suit PI" side. Honestly, if you pay attention to nothing else in this post, re-read the above paragraph. I think this is the root of the problem that exist in the relationship between you and the professor. fuzzylogician and dr. t 2
GeoDUDE! Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) TLDR (from thread): She has money. She wants to pay someone to do something a certain way. You are not doing it that way. If you do not do it that way, you will get fired. Figure out what that way is or you will be fired. You have the chance to learn a life lesson without having many negative consequences, I suggest you take it. Edited June 15, 2015 by GeoDUDE! TakeruK, dr. t, firewitch and 3 others 6
St Andrews Lynx Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 I think I may be safer just trying to work out what to do myself and not give her any further excuses. No. I don't think it would. If your boss never hears a word back from you after she says "I'm strongly considering firing you." she is more likely to conclude that you don't care whether she fires you or not. Or that you aren't taking her ultimatum seriously (which would piss me off). If lateness is only part of your problem then it is going to be blind guesswork on your part what you need to do to clean up your act. And the odds are you'll get it wrong. Part of being a professional employee is learning how to say to your boss's face: "I screwed up. It's entirely my fault. I'm really sorry about what happened and I would really appreciate your advice to help me avoid making the same mistake again." To stay on the subject of lateness. It isn't enough to quietly fix the lateness issue. Your boss is looking for some kind of acknowledgement from you that your lateness is a problem to her and that you understand why she considers it a problem. She will be looking for a declared plan of action from you to remedy the problem: if you tell her or write in an email "I will arrive at 9.30am every day." then she can measure your commitment to improvement based off that plan. Plus, it shows initiative and responsibility for your own actions. Yes, these conversations are scary. But you're a professional scientist now. You need to learn how to deal with them. knp 1
Lotar Posted June 16, 2015 Author Posted June 16, 2015 Dear all, thanks for the further responses. I have made some progress with this matter. This morning I sent an email to my supervisor, as I had completed all the tasks she had set me after yelling at me on Friday. We had agreed to discuss them yesterday, but we didn't get around to it. I was fearing that it was going to be a repeat of last week, so I decided just to explain that I'd done all of the stuff she had asked and had a few questions. I didn't mention discussing a plan for improvement, as I hadn't decided on a strategy yet. Today she ignored me all morning (except for frowning at me as she passed me in a corridor), but eventually I did get called to her office. I was feeling very nervous as I was worried she was going to be hostile towards me, but when we sat down I just got on with discussing my latest results and she warmed up a lot. She seemed pleased with my work, I asked some important questions, and she taught me some useful stuff. She actually seemed in a better mood than "usual" i.e. before Friday's incident. I'm hoping that she's seeing that despite my faults (which I agree, I need to work on, and I resolve to do so), I'm not a terrible student. We discussed our paper that we're working on, it sounds like in the next few days one of our overseas colleagues will have finished putting all of the different sections together and we'll have a kind of prototype version very soon. She said she would be going away at the start of next month for a short while and I offered to deal with communications with our colleagues abroad and get on with proofreading and editing the paper, which she said she trusted me to do. Given that this meeting went a lot better than I thought it would (sometimes when she's in a bad mood she berates my results before seeing them, before being convinced that they are good when she does see them, she didn't do that this time), I didn't bring up a "plan of action", although part of my plan was to do so. I didn't want to spoil what had been a great meeting by returning to the less pleasant discussion we had last week. I don't know if this was wise or not. I'm still considering asking her about what I need to do to improve. For the record, I did say very sincerely at the end of my telling-off last week that I really am sorry, and that I intend to make amends, so she knows that I want to improve my faults. In any case, things are much, much better than they were 24 hours ago. I'm now less convinced she's trying to get rid of me for ulterior motives, although I'm still not sure how she will take the news if it does turn out that I might need to take a not inconsiderable amount of time off ill if my medical issue turns out to be moderately serious. I know after today's meeting pretty much what I need to be doing research wise (I'm meeting one of our postdocs tomorrow who is going to give me a little tutorial on a new type of calculation I need to do), so I hope to bring some new results very soon. I don't know how the rest of you would view this: I see it as a positive, as it tells me that she at least appears to be willing to move on from the idea of me being the bad guy, just as much as I'm willing to be more astute with my organisation. This seems a fair compromise to me. But perhaps there would still be some value in discussing the problem face-on. I don't really know. Thanks again for all the advice, feel free to comment.
fuzzylogician Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 OK, I'll say it. All your posts in this thread read weirdly sexist and completely oblivious to your situation. If I didn't know any better, I might think you were describing a fight with your girlfriend. Just from this latest post: She yelled at you on Friday, you were fearing a repeat. This morning she was in a better mood than usual, but she ignored you except for frowning at you once. (This setup, mind you, is all happening in your head.) You had a normal professional meeting in the afternoon, discussing a paper you are working on together, and making plans for the next couple of weeks. (Back to stuff in your head:) She apparently wasn't in a bad mood. Therefore, you are now less convinced that she is out to get you, but you still think she is volatile and might react poorly if you have to take time off for a medical problem later. And the kicker -- you think you can now put this fight behind you, so to speak: "She at least appears to be willing to move on from the idea of me being the bad guy, just as much as I'm willing to be more astute with my organisation." I think you are misreading the situation on many levels. They have been pointed out ad nauseam so I won't repeat them again, but you really don't seem to be getting it, despite saying over and over that you accept responsibility and are willing to change. You need to realize that this is a professional job situation, and she is your boss, not your friend and not your equal. RunnerGrad, rising_star, dr. t and 5 others 8
bsharpe269 Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 I agree with fuzzy logician that you are majorly reading into everything. However, I admittedly do the same and I think a lot of academics do. That is what makes me good at my research... I analyze all of the little details of something until I fully understand it in my head. That being said, it sounds like your meeting today went well. If you make the changes that she wants from you (which it sounds like you are willing to make) then I think you guys can have a good working relationship going forward.
xolo Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 Hi Lotar, Is the professor Spanish and yourself British? Is it a Spanish program, ie, in the Spanish language? There are some cultural differences possible. I'm only going to add that I can guarantee you that her perception of the "issues" are not anywhere near your perception of them. I am not saying she is right and you are wrong, but if you love your work and want to work in her lab, I would be thinking real hard how she views things and make my strategy based on what will make her happy.
fuzzylogician Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 I agree with fuzzy logician that you are majorly reading into everything. However, I admittedly do the same and I think a lot of academics do. That is what makes me good at my research... I analyze all of the little details of something until I fully understand it in my head. That being said, it sounds like your meeting today went well. If you make the changes that she wants from you (which it sounds like you are willing to make) then I think you guys can have a good working relationship going forward. Regardless of whether or not you tend to over-analyze and read more into things than there is, here is the deal. If you are 7 months into a job, have received 2 warnings about your performance, and then had a third conversation where your boss says they are so unhappy with you they are thinking of firing you, would you try and guess what your boss wants from you and act just on that, or would you have a conversation with them to explicitly ask what their expectations are, and come up with a plan to meet them, possibly with some built-in measures to hold you accountable? Which plan do you think has a higher likelihood of making your boss happy, and which one has a higher likelihood of failing? Now factor in your tendency to over-interpret things. Does that make you more or less inclined to coordinate expectations as opposed to guess what they are? echo449, dr. t, rising_star and 5 others 8
bhr Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The things that struck me were your lack of accountability for your own actions. YOU chose not to email the lab that you weren't coming in (something done easily from any cell phone). You were late, as you admit, more than a few times (and at least a few based purely on missing an alarm). You chose not to divulge a medical issue that was causing your problems, and while that is your right, you haven't given them an alternate reason for missing lab time (I dealt with a semi-serious health concern this year as well, similar to yours, I imagine, and the first thing I did was tell my DGS and profs, as they were able to work with me/excuse some attendance issues). The truth is, no matter how great your results are (from your POV), you aren't meeting the basic standards of the lab/job. Maybe the professor assumes that, if you were there every day on time and were better at follow up/communication, your results would be even better. The idea that she planned a Friday meeting to ambush or upset you seems somewhat ludicrous. It's pretty standard practice in industry to have those sorts of conversations on Friday afternoon, so people have the weekend to process the exchange before returning to work on Monday OR to allow the person to pack up and leave without making a scene. med latte 1
St Andrews Lynx Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 From the perspective of your boss. You had the conversation with her on Friday where she delivered the ultimatum '3 months to get your act together before I fire you'. You left the meeting apologising and promised to change your ways. As far as she is concerned, you've taken the message on board, understand what is expected of you and are "getting your act together". Why would she need to raise the matter in casual discussion with you again? I very much doubt that she has forgotten what she said, or has decided that you're "no longer the bad guy". She's waiting for the 3 months to pass before she reassesses your behaviour (...um, as she said she would). Proceed with caution. gellert and rising_star 2
Eigen Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 From the perspective of your boss. You had the conversation with her on Friday where she delivered the ultimatum '3 months to get your act together before I fire you'. You left the meeting apologising and promised to change your ways. As far as she is concerned, you've taken the message on board, understand what is expected of you and are "getting your act together". Why would she need to raise the matter in casual discussion with you again? I very much doubt that she has forgotten what she said, or has decided that you're "no longer the bad guy". She's waiting for the 3 months to pass before she reassesses your behaviour (...um, as she said she would). Proceed with caution. I can't reiterate this advice enough. In the last couple of years, I've seen a number of graduate students get told "you have x amount of time to get your act together, or X will happen". Usually getting fired/swapped to the MS track. And then the PI doesn't bring it up again- they've given a deadline, and said what they expect to happen. The students assume that since the PI isn't bringing it up again, everything is now OK. Then x amount of time passes, and the PI meets with them to assess progress, they haven't done what they were told to do, and bad things happen. Chemistry graduate school is more like a job than many other fields- you are solely employed by your PI, and labs are run like a small business. The expectation that you work normal hours is quite common, as are other industry like standards of behavior. I even know some labs that use signed employment contracts & weekly/monthly/quarterly progress reports. I also want to reiterate Fuzzy's advice: stop trying to attribute feelings/intentions to your PI. They're acting like a boss, as they are supposed to. And treating you as an employee, as is typical. You don't get to tell them how many hours they should put in- they own the lab, they have the funding to pay for everything, including your salary and expenses. On the other hand, they get to tell you what they expect from you. If you feel like their expectations are out of line with what you are OK with doing, then your option is generally to leave (as in a job) and find another employer (PI) with an approach to management that fits better with what you are looking for. Your PI having a different management style than you like or are used to doesn't make either of you wrong, at worst it makes you a bad fit for her group. gellert, knp and TakeruK 3
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