Are students allowed to get professional editing service

[tachik]

My professors have used them, but apparently students cant get tutors to fix grammar, etc? I really need professionals to edit my work. My writing centre are so useless....they don't edit. Can students still go ahead and get essays proofread?

Edited October 26, 2015 by tachik

[TakeruK]

If you are asking if you can use professional editing services for the courses you are taking, then the only people that can answer that question is the people in charge of your courses, department policies and university policies. Follow the rules and guidelines set by your school, department and instructors. We can't really help you answer that question here!

[tachik]

Thanks! Yea, I just think it's weird why students can't use services while profs can. 

[Eigen]

Because you are being graded on your writing, while they are not. 

Professional editing for for a grade is, in essence, cheating. It's no different than any other service where you pay someone to do/help you with work that you then turn in as your own. 

Between questions like this and the issues you seem to be having with plagiarism, I would guess that you haven't had a very good explanation of academic ethics, and that is causing you issued. 

[TakeruK]

Because you are being graded on your writing, while they are not. 

Professional editing for for a grade is, in essence, cheating. It's no different than any other service where you pay someone to do/help you with work that you then turn in as your own. 

Between questions like this and the issues you seem to be having with plagiarism, I would guess that you haven't had a very good explanation of academic ethics, and that is causing you issued. 

I don't think professional editing for a grade is always cheating. That is, the reason that I think it should not be done is because the class/department/school policies forbid it. I don't think the act in itself is cheating, if that makes sense?

Note: I do think that for most classes, the point of setting writing assignments is to have the student develop and build their writing abilities, so it makes complete sense to forbid editing services (whether it's a professional one or having a friend proof-read it). But in some cases, I can see a scenario where spelling/grammar is not part of the assignment and thus not important so I would not mind if my student uses an editing service (whether it's paid, the campus writing center or a friend/family member reading it over). This would be analogous, in my mind, to allowing the use of calculators when the point of the assignment is not to do arithmetic (or allowing use of Wolfram Alpha to solve integrals when the point of the assignment is not to solve complicated integrals).

[Eigen]

I don't think school policies necessarily need to explicitly prevent professional editing. Rather, I'd think they would need to explicitly allow it. 

Most honor policies/syllabi include portions about the student certifying that all work presented in courses is their own. 

I think the key question would be whether the edited document would receive a better grade than the unedited document. If so, then someone else is making changes that result in  a better grade, which mean's the grade is not entirely based on your work. 

If you're being graded off of your writing, and you pay for someone to edit it to be correct, then it is no longer your work. It's one of the reasons most writing centers are so strict about what they will and won't help with. Most professional editing services aren't worried about maintaining the ethical ownership of the work from the writer- so while a good writing tutor/instructor could make general comments and help the student note change to make on their own, they do not make the needed changes themselves. 

For a STEM perspective, I'd say it's less like using a calculator, and more like paying someone to read over your homework before you turn it in to correct any calculational errors. 

The analogy to a calculator is the use of a word processor, that automatically catches mis-spellings, and suggest errors in grammar. 

[TakeruK]

I am at a school where the honor code is interpreted, in the context of the collaboration policy for homework, is basically "if it's not explicitly disallowed, then it is allowed". I know this is a little abnormal though. You're right that most honor policies/syllabi here include a statement that all of the work must be the student's own so in effect, that statement does not allow professional editing services.

But when I wrote the post above, what I meant is that it is not inherently immoral (in my opinion) to pay someone to edit your essay for spelling/grammar. So, if a collaboration policy allows it (or does not disallow it), I think it would be fine. By contrast, I think it is inherently immoral for an unfair practice such as "Students with names beginning with T are allowed to copy their friends' answers" and if an honor policy/course syllabi allowed it, it would still be inherently unfair/immoral. 

As for grading, yes, I agree with you! If I were to allow something like this in the class, I would not assign any points to spelling/grammar (or subtract points for mistakes). And I agree that the problem with many professional editing services is that they are not worried about ethics but this is a problem with the provider, not the act of getting outside help.

For the analogy, I think you are right that calculator is more like a word processor. But an algebra engine like Wolfram Alpha is more like a professional writing service I guess. This is because Wolfram Alpha will not just tell you the right answer, but shows you all of the steps in getting there. Using this in an intro calculus class, where the point was to do the work yourself to get to the answer, would definitely be against the rules of that class. But using this in something like an advanced Quantum class where solving the integral isn't really the main teaching goal, would be allowed.

[rising_star]

As for grading, yes, I agree with you! If I were to allow something like this in the class, I would not assign any points to spelling/grammar (or subtract points for mistakes). And I agree that the problem with many professional editing services is that they are not worried about ethics but this is a problem with the provider, not the act of getting outside help.

This is really field and course specific. For example, in one of my courses, I do take off points for spelling/grammar because the course is about communication in a discipline, which means adhering to the disciplinary norms around both written and oral communication. Consequently, things that don't adhere to the norms mean a loss of points. I'm very clear with students about this in class, in the assignment instructions, and in the grading rubric I give them. That they then choose not to proofread or go to the Writing Center for help isn't my problem. But, I've also found that for many students, they don't even realize they're making mistakes because no one has ever pointed it out to them (e.g., by marking errors on their papers). It's unfortunate to me that many people are taking the approach of not giving any points to spelling/grammar because it indicates to students that things are less important than everything else they do. Being able to write well is a skill which requires practice, just like being good at basketball or solving differential equations. It also, especially in the sciences, sends a message to students that getting the right answer or doing the right calculation is far more important than being able to communicate that information clearly or well. 

Back to the original post: I don't let my students use professional editing services. Learning how to edit and revise your own work is part of the writing process and therefore is the student's responsibility. I don't have a problem with them reading and commenting on each other's papers (we do this in class) but the final product needs to be the student's work.

[MastersHoping]

I think you'll have to get this cleared with the individual school/department/instructor.

Intuitively, though, I do not think this would qualify as "cheating." There is a writing center at my university, for example, where the staff are paid to help you proofread your papers, edit for grammar, edit for structure and style, etc. If you pay a professional editor for this service, it is the exact same thing - the only difference being who is paying the editor (the university vs. yourself privately). So in my opinion, if a professor lets you use the school's writing center, I do not see how they could reasonably claim you are cheating by doing the same thing but on your own. 

On a practical level, though, I don't see how you can possibly even get "caught" using this editing service. Aside from whether or not it constitutes cheating (which in my opinion it is not, but clarify it with your instructor), how would anyone even know? Not like professors know when I use the writing center for my essays. Heck, I even use the writing center for my admissions essays!

[TakeruK]

This is really field and course specific. For example, in one of my courses, I do take off points for spelling/grammar because the course is about communication in a discipline, which means adhering to the disciplinary norms around both written and oral communication. Consequently, things that don't adhere to the norms mean a loss of points. I'm very clear with students about this in class, in the assignment instructions, and in the grading rubric I give them. That they then choose not to proofread or go to the Writing Center for help isn't my problem. But, I've also found that for many students, they don't even realize they're making mistakes because no one has ever pointed it out to them (e.g., by marking errors on their papers). It's unfortunate to me that many people are taking the approach of not giving any points to spelling/grammar because it indicates to students that things are less important than everything else they do. Being able to write well is a skill which requires practice, just like being good at basketball or solving differential equations. It also, especially in the sciences, sends a message to students that getting the right answer or doing the right calculation is far more important than being able to communicate that information clearly or well. 

Back to the original post: I don't let my students use professional editing services. Learning how to edit and revise your own work is part of the writing process and therefore is the student's responsibility. I don't have a problem with them reading and commenting on each other's papers (we do this in class) but the final product needs to be the student's work.

I agree it's specific to each case. In the most recent class I TA'ed, the emphasis was on learning Bayesian statistical methods. In the problem sets, this includes doing things like making plots to show your answer. In this class, I removed a small number of points (10%) for missing things like properly labelling your axes. It's part of communicating your work clearly and I decided that this was worth 10% of the problem set. I wanted students to think about things like axis labels a little bit, but not have it detract from learning Bayesian statistics. I made the decision to reduce cognitive load on small details so that the big picture is not lost. However, in another class, a laboratory methods class, I would take off up to 40% of the points for things like missing axis labels. This is because I felt that the point of the lab course is to learn how to keep a good lab notebook and develop good practices for later scientific work. 

I do agree that communication is as important as the results though. In almost all of my classes, I will award up to 80% of the points for clearly communicating to me what they were thinking. Only 10%-20% of the points for a correct answer (i.e. I'm happy to award 9/10 on assignments that get the wrong eventual answer but did all of the right steps and explained why they chose those steps clearly). To me, this is like the spelling/grammar (since my courses do not involve papers)---it's not just getting the right answer to the differential equation, I want to see that the student can 1) show that they know the steps and 2) are able to communicate these steps in the norm of the field (here, it's a proof or a series of equations but it could be grammar if it was a different assignment).

[Eigen]

I think you'll have to get this cleared with the individual school/department/instructor.

Intuitively, though, I do not think this would qualify as "cheating." There is a writing center at my university, for example, where the staff are paid to help you proofread your papers, edit for grammar, edit for structure and style, etc. If you pay a professional editor for this service, it is the exact same thing - the only difference being who is paying the editor (the university vs. yourself privately). So in my opinion, if a professor lets you use the school's writing center, I do not see how they could reasonably claim you are cheating by doing the same thing but on your own. 

On a practical level, though, I don't see how you can possibly even get "caught" using this editing service. Aside from whether or not it constitutes cheating (which in my opinion it is not, but clarify it with your instructor), how would anyone even know? Not like professors know when I use the writing center for my essays. Heck, I even use the writing center for my admissions essays!

If your writing center is actually proof-reading and editing your papers, someone didn't train them as well as they should have. Generally, writing centers are pretty heavily advised to help generally with writing, but not directly edit or proofread works. The former helps students learn to write (which is the purpose) the latter does it for them.

[MastersHoping]

If your writing center is actually proof-reading and editing your papers, someone didn't train them as well as they should have. Generally, writing centers are pretty heavily advised to help generally with writing, but not directly edit or proofread works. The former helps students learn to write (which is the purpose) the latter does it for them.

I'm not sure what the writing centers at your university were like, but at both University of Chicago (where I did undergrad) and Georgetown University (where I'm at now), the writing tutors all directly proofread and helped edit your papers. You were also allowed to go to them before you finished your paper so they could help you with the writing process, but generally they were the most helpful when you presented them your finished papers. I know that these are just two examples/anecdotal evidence, and I do not have any way of conducting a systematic study on various universities' writing centers, but these are two very well-known and reputable universities and I would be surprised if they were the only two universities where the writing center helped you directly edit or proofread works. Even my high school writing center provided this kind of direct service. 

[Eigen]

Quote from UChicago's Graduate Writing Center:

• GWCs are not copy-editors/proofreaders. If you are looking for copy editing, the Writing Program can set you up with a trained, fee-based editor.

They also make a point of describing that they go over the paper to help the student find errors and work on solutions, rather than direct editing or proof-reading. This is exactly in line with what I suggested above in the training of writing center tutors. 

Quote from Georgetown's Writing Center:

Will a tutor proofread my paper for me?
No.  But we will help you learn how to revise and edit your work to improve all the writing you do. 

So again, if you're having people that will edit or proofread your papers for you, they're going against the policies of the writing center. Other places I've worked would fire or discipline tutors if they found out they were doing so against policy, so I'd be careful about spreading around the fact that they are. 

Also note that in both cases, there's a very distinct difference between someone helping you proofread/edit your paper, and someone proofreading/editing your paper directly for you.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Eigen

[MastersHoping]

Lol wow I can't believe you actually went to Georgetown and UChicago's site to find that info!

I think we might be having a misunderstanding on what we mean by proofreading/editing. 

What I'm talking about is that the two of you (student and tutor) sit down at the cubicle together, read the paper together, and the tutor making suggestions on what to change, content of paper, etc. Here at Georgetown, for example, I've had the tutors help me with everything as general as the overall content of the paper to something as specific as which word would be a better word choice. That's what I was talking about when I said "directly".

Edited October 29, 2015 by MastersHoping

[Eigen]

That's not proofreading/editing. That's what a writing tutor does.

It's also not what this thread is about. Paying a professional editing service to go over and correct your paper is not the same thing as going to a writing center and getting a tutor to help you with a paper.

As to visiting the website, I was exceptionally surprised either of those universities would allow their writing center to proofread or copy edit, as I'm familiar with the centers for teaching at both schools. Figured I'd double check. As I said, writing centers generally work by sitting down and helping the student with the paper, not directly editing or proof-reading.

[MastersHoping]

I see, in that case, I suppose I was mistaken in what constitutes proofreading or editing. 

[lyrehc]

As an instructor I don't have a problem with students hiring a proofreader. I want the ideas and content to be their own, but some people need more help in the presentation than others. Plus, I focus on students using the speech format of narration, thesis, intro, body points, review, conclusion, peroration whether assignments are written or spoken. A writing center or proofreader may be able to help with mechanics, but they aren't going to be as aware of format - that is all on the student.

Haven't you had classes or taught classes where students exchange rough drafts for peer edits? Or group papers where students divide up the work - someone may focus on technical information and someone else may polish the writing because the group members have different strengths. Hiring someone because you're shaky in mechanics is, in my opinion, using resources that are available and not cheating.

I'm in communication so maybe this is more discipline specific.

[rising_star]

13 minutes ago, lyrehc said:

As an instructor I don't have a problem with students hiring a proofreader. I want the ideas and content to be their own, but some people need more help in the presentation than others. Plus, I focus on students using the speech format of narration, thesis, intro, body points, review, conclusion, peroration whether assignments are written or spoken. A writing center or proofreader may be able to help with mechanics, but they aren't going to be as aware of format - that is all on the student.

I teach a couple of writing-intensive courses and I do have a problem with students hiring someone to proofread. Part of what I'm trying to teach them is how to revise and edit their own work so, hiring someone to do that defeats the point. They're welcome to get help doing it themselves by going to the Writing Center, coming to my office hours, or exchanging drafts with a classmate but, they definitely cannot just hire out that work to someone else. If they do, they fail the assignment and, potentially, the course.

[Eigen]

5 hours ago, rising_star said:

I teach a couple of writing-intensive courses and I do have a problem with students hiring someone to proofread. Part of what I'm trying to teach them is how to revise and edit their own work so, hiring someone to do that defeats the point. They're welcome to get help doing it themselves by going to the Writing Center, coming to my office hours, or exchanging drafts with a classmate but, they definitely cannot just hire out that work to someone else. If they do, they fail the assignment and, potentially, the course.

This is my stance in writing intensive courses, or labs with full reports. 

I'll help students, but I do grade on correct writing even in science courses. And learning how to edit your own work or get help from peers is a part of that.