"If possible, .... [tell us] no later than March 1." Help + Negotiation?

[jaymeowmeow]

Hi all, 

I was admitted to Colorado State (CSU) in their Ph.D in Statistics program. I really love the program, but am still waiting to hear from 14 other programs! It is one of my top choices, but is a bit far from my family (SoCal). I love Colorado, so I would choose it in a heartbeat if all the cards were right. 

Anyway, I have two problems: 

1) Their unofficial acceptance email said that they would like me to tell them my decision by March 1st. I'm visiting on 2/22, but have a feeling I won't have heard back from all my programs by March 1st! When they say "if possible", let them know, how much wiggle room do you think I have? Should I tell them that they're one of my top programs, but I just need more time to decide? Not sure if other programs do this with such an early deadline. 

2) I also got into NC State's Ph.D in Stats program. They offered me a TAship of $2083.33 a month for 9 months, plus everything else except like $2600 a year in student fees. CSU offered me only $1785 a month for TA stipend (and I'm not sure of other offerings like health insurance and student fees). Are these negotiable? I feel like if it comes down to it and CSU is the more feasible and better fitting program for me, I'd like to try and get a higher monthly stipend amount. This is especially something I want to do since cost of living is a little bit higher in Fort Collins than in Raleigh. 

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks! 

[rising_star]

In order:

1) I would wait, for now, and not ask about having more time to decide until after your visit. It could be that you visit and realize that CSU isn't the right place for you based on the atmosphere and fit once you're there. So, visit on 2/22, see how it goes, see what other departments you've heard from, and then take it from there. The general advice is to both ask if you can have more time (so ask CSU) but also contact your top choices by phone to see when you might hear back about your application status.

2) I did the math really quickly so I know that the actual difference between the two offers isn't very much once you account for the student fees at NC State, unless CSU's student fees are comparably high. You also didn't say whether the CSU offer is 9 or 12 months. I think the big thing to think about with this is how much money do you need to live on? Do you actually need the extra money or do you just want it?

Other things you should consider are: Is there a way for you to get funding from sources other than TAing? How long will the funding last? Is that long enough to complete your PhD? Are there dissertation completion fellowships available so you're not teaching while also trying to write, defend, and find a job? These things may be more important than the amount you get paid each month because having more money earlier in your PhD may not set you up to finish in the way in which you'd like. 

 

Also, you didn't ask this, but if you think Colorado is "a bit from [your] family", why is NC State even under consideration? Colorado is a short flight (under two hours) to Southern California versus at least a 5 hour flight between Raleigh and SoCal (assuming you could find a direct flight). The flight from Colorado will also generally be less expensive, which could help you save money on travel thereby making the smaller stipend go further.

P.S. I continue to be shocked by the huge differences in stipends between STEM, social sciences, and humanities. A humanities student was asking about a $12K/year stipend somewhere around here in the last 24 hours. This isn't to say that you can't or shouldn't ask for more money. It's mostly to say that you should probably keep in mind that other people are going to that same university with an even lower stipend than you'll get and find ways to make it work financially.

[svent]

Isn't that like saying a software developer making only 60k (let's say in California) should question whether to ask for a reasonable salary because a study abroad advisor is only pulling in 40k?

[rising_star]

@svent, not really. TA duties from one department to another have far more in common than being a software developer at one company and a study abroad advisor at a university.

[svent]

So the sciences are funded more seriously, just like tech jobs. Not sure why this should surprise anyone. I suppose you can argue someone teaching math or physics needs to know more than someone teaching a history class. Or maybe they're sometimes required to stay at the university very late grading exams for huge classes.

[rising_star]

@svent, at this point, I don't even know what you're trying to say at this point. Do you really think that TAs for large history classes don't have to grade exams? Actually, in many cases, STEM PhD students are funded by research assistantships so they get to focus solely on research without having to worry about teaching or grading.

I never said it was surprising that the PhD students in STEM get more funding than those in other fields, I just pointed it out as something for the OP to consider because it suggests that the stipend amount is likely livable, despite what the OP may think about the straight-up dollar amount. 

[svent]

You didn't say you were surprised, you said you were shocked. Of course history TAs have to grade exams. Actually I never took a history class in college, but I did take polisci. The classes were pretty small though, even the freshman level classes. Doesn't compare to the freshman calculus classes with 500 students, where the TAs periodically have to stay until midnight or even later grading exams, be back by 8 AM to go to their own classes, then pick up and grade the smaller batch of exams taken the next day by students who had a schedule conflict, and submit all the grades by noon. For some reason in those math classes they had to have the exams graded in less than a day, but in polisci they might not return the exams for a week.

Anyway, I said one could argue this being a reason. I could be wrong about some of these social science TAs, but that's the sense I get from my own college (and grad school) experience.

You can also argue how unfair it is that undergrad TAs are paid so poorly (probably around $500/semester) for doing pretty much the same work, but that's a different story.

[jaymeowmeow]

On 2/13/2016 at 4:36 AM, rising_star said:

In order:

1) I would wait, for now, and not ask about having more time to decide until after your visit. It could be that you visit and realize that CSU isn't the right place for you based on the atmosphere and fit once you're there. So, visit on 2/22, see how it goes, see what other departments you've heard from, and then take it from there. The general advice is to both ask if you can have more time (so ask CSU) but also contact your top choices by phone to see when you might hear back about your application status.

2) I did the math really quickly so I know that the actual difference between the two offers isn't very much once you account for the student fees at NC State, unless CSU's student fees are comparably high. You also didn't say whether the CSU offer is 9 or 12 months. I think the big thing to think about with this is how much money do you need to live on? Do you actually need the extra money or do you just want it?

Other things you should consider are: Is there a way for you to get funding from sources other than TAing? How long will the funding last? Is that long enough to complete your PhD? Are there dissertation completion fellowships available so you're not teaching while also trying to write, defend, and find a job? These things may be more important than the amount you get paid each month because having more money earlier in your PhD may not set you up to finish in the way in which you'd like. 

 

Also, you didn't ask this, but if you think Colorado is "a bit from [your] family", why is NC State even under consideration? Colorado is a short flight (under two hours) to Southern California versus at least a 5 hour flight between Raleigh and SoCal (assuming you could find a direct flight). The flight from Colorado will also generally be less expensive, which could help you save money on travel thereby making the smaller stipend go further.

P.S. I continue to be shocked by the huge differences in stipends between STEM, social sciences, and humanities. A humanities student was asking about a $12K/year stipend somewhere around here in the last 24 hours. This isn't to say that you can't or shouldn't ask for more money. It's mostly to say that you should probably keep in mind that other people are going to that same university with an even lower stipend than you'll get and find ways to make it work financially.

Thanks! This is helpful. I will definitely wait a couple weeks before asking about extending that decision deadline. To answer some of your questions (which may have been rhetorical): CSU's offer was for 9 months. They said you teach over the summer and then you can get it for 2 more months. I think the extra money would be somewhat needed. Right now I'm in a program that gives a 12.5k stipend over the course of 8 months (they skipped January), and it hasn't been enough. I think the price of apply to grad school has been a huge factor on that, but I feel that since moving here, I've been behind every month financially. It's doable, but a bit stressful. I think 1785 a month is fine if my moving costs and all that jazz were covered first. But then again, real life means there will always be unanticipated costs that I should try to just save for. 

I will definitely look for external scholarships. I've been slow on that since the application process for grad school has been so taxing. 

NC State is a better program on paper, and it's bigger (which I'm not sure I want), but I applied because I know how good of a program it is. I would seriously consider it if I feel that it would provide me better opportunities and all that. I didn't even think I would get in! Also, if my California options don't pan out, Colorado and NC State are amazing options. If I didn't have parental pressure to go back to Cali, I would not have 2nd thoughts about being out-of-state and even as far away as the East Coast from SoCal. Applying to non-California schools was my way of being a bit rebellious. 

 

 

[nissl]

Hey, I'm in the same boat as you with CSU statistics. All I can tell you is what I did. I emailed all my other school (4 others) and told them I had an offer with an early acceptance date. I got very prompt responses including an acceptance from one and an interview from another within 24 hours. Didn't solve my problem of late visit dates though. I asked for an extension till March 31st and was given till March 11th. Still not useful for other visit days, but at least more time to think and contact grad students at other programs. I understand where CSU is coming from. They want to give the best students offers, so if they wait too late then they're second options might already have chosen some where else. It's a tough game to play. Good luck!

Also, CSU covers your all your health insurance, but none of the student fees. I really don't think the stipend in negotiable.

Edited February 14, 2016 by nissl

[svent]

I would push the other programs for some answers. Keep in mind that February is probably the busiest month for admissions, so I'd expect some more answers the next couple weeks. Otherwise, pick whichever program you like better. Sounds like that's CSU for you. The money sounds pretty comparable... not sure if Fort Collins or Raleigh is more expensive to live in. If you need some extra cash, I'm sure CSU will have plenty of kids needing calculus/probability/stats tutoring.

"Do you actually need the extra money or do you just want it?"

I disagree with this. At this level of income (barely above poverty), every extra dollar goes a long way. I don't know if you should decide based on the money, but I wouldn't discount the effect of a 10% income increase. Keep in mind there's no guarantee that you get a good job after your PhD, or that you even finish your PhD. You may end up wasting a few years of your life with nothing to show for it.

[jaymeowmeow]

11 hours ago, nissl said:

Hey, I'm in the same boat as you with CSU statistics. All I can tell you is what I did. I emailed all my other school (4 others) and told them I had an offer with an early acceptance date. I got very prompt responses including an acceptance from one and an interview from another within 24 hours. Didn't solve my problem of late visit dates though. I asked for an extension till March 31st and was given till March 11th. Still not useful for other visit days, but at least more time to think and contact grad students at other programs. I understand where CSU is coming from. They want to give the best students offers, so if they wait too late then they're second options might already have chosen some where else. It's a tough game to play. Good luck!

Also, CSU covers your all your health insurance, but none of the student fees. I really don't think the stipend in negotiable.

 

nissl, thanks for your reply! I applied to a LOT of programs, so maybe I'll shoot an email to the ones I would consider attending, given that I have two offers.

How much is CSU's student fees? They haven't given me the official offer yet, so I don't know. Submitted my official CSU app over the weekend, so I guess I should know soon. Darn those student fees!!!!! 

Are you visiting CSU next week, too? PM me if you are! I saw on the results page that waitlisted people are supposed to find out March 11th if they're accepted to CSU. Makes sense that is the latest date they gave you. 

 

[MathCat]

On 2/14/2016 at 9:30 AM, svent said:

You didn't say you were surprised, you said you were shocked. Of course history TAs have to grade exams. Actually I never took a history class in college, but I did take polisci. The classes were pretty small though, even the freshman level classes. Doesn't compare to the freshman calculus classes with 500 students, where the TAs periodically have to stay until midnight or even later grading exams, be back by 8 AM to go to their own classes, then pick up and grade the smaller batch of exams taken the next day by students who had a schedule conflict, and submit all the grades by noon. For some reason in those math classes they had to have the exams graded in less than a day, but in polisci they might not return the exams for a week.

Anyway, I said one could argue this being a reason. I could be wrong about some of these social science TAs, but that's the sense I get from my own college (and grad school) experience.

You can also argue how unfair it is that undergrad TAs are paid so poorly (probably around $500/semester) for doing pretty much the same work, but that's a different story.

This is getting off topic, but I had to say: what you've described is very, very far from my experience TAing those enormous calculus classes, or what I've heard from any of my friends in other math departments - for example, there are usually several TAs and we have at least a week to grade the exams. Also, when you're just grading a calculus problem it becomes pretty quick, as you start to only see a few different answers and know what grade each one should get, unlike if I had to read a written response from each student. Also, undergrad TAs are paid much more than that here.

[rising_star]

@jaymeowmeow, you should be able to find information about what the CSU fees are on their website. You'll want to add up all the non-tuition fees and then see how much that will cost you. Now, depending on the school, there are different ways these have to be paid. At one of my grad institutions, you could have your student fees taken out of each month's paycheck (so they totaled what you owed for the semester, divided that by 4, and then took it out of your check each month so you didn't have to have all the money upfront). At another, student fees were due at the end of the first week of class. This may not seem like a big deal but, it can make a huge difference if you're talking $500+. A quick google search for "csu.edu. tuition" led me to this page, which might help you determine what the fees would be. 

@svent, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I've been a TA and taught at multiple institutions. As a TA in the social sciences, I was one of several TAs for a 450 person course whose exams were a mix of multiple choice and short answer (and, annoyingly for us, there were always 6 versions of each exam so you had to make sure you used the right key, then resort the exams after that so they went to the right TA). We didn't literally stay up all night grading them but, we did pull long hours next to the Scantron machine to get it all done. I was the individual TA for 90 students that semester and we were supposed to return their papers (3-5 pages each) in a week. Trust me when I say that is far worse than grading exams, even with short answer or brief essay questions. But, it seems you dogmatically believe that STEM TAs have it harder than everyone else, even when they probably don't. English TAs probably have it the worst (grading for Intro to Composition) and they are often some of the lowest paid TAs.

[svent]

8 hours ago, MathCat said:

This is getting off topic, but I had to say: what you've described is very, very far from my experience TAing those enormous calculus classes, or what I've heard from any of my friends in other math departments - for example, there are usually several TAs and we have at least a week to grade the exams. Also, when you're just grading a calculus problem it becomes pretty quick, as you start to only see a few different answers and know what grade each one should get, unlike if I had to read a written response from each student. Also, undergrad TAs are paid much more than that here.

It's true that it becomes quick once you get the hang of a problem. But my experience TAing calculus at both a small private school and a huge public school is that they always need to return the calculus exams the next day, but for upper level classes (or classes in other departments), they'll take a good week to return the exams. I'm not quite sure why this is. I've also done grading for HWs in upper level classes where they have to write proofs, and grading, say, 50-100 of those myself went by more quickly than grading a huge number of calculus exams with a bunch of other people. One reason for this is also that your colleagues at a grading party will take time to share answers they find humorous with you, laugh at some of the things they see. This can really slow down the process. As for undergrad TAs, that's my own experience. Granted, I only had to run one recitation as an undergrad, and wasn't obligated to stay as long grading exams sometimes, so my point isn't perfect, but the undergrad TAs were still severely underpaid compared to grad TAs for performing essentially the same duties, especially when you take tuition waivers into account.

Trust me when I say that is far worse than grading exams, even with short answer or brief essay questions. But, it seems you dogmatically believe that STEM TAs have it harder than everyone else, even when they probably don't. English TAs probably have it the worst (grading for Intro to Composition) and they are often some of the lowest paid TAs.

Not really. I just said one can make that argument, and that it holds up based on my personal experience. I will admit that STEM folks have it better since they do make a lot more money, even though the money still sucks. If I'd had a $1200 stipend as a grad student instead of $2000ish, there's just no way I could have afforded my own apartment.

[svent]

Actually, come to think of it, when I was a calculus TA at a big public university, lectures were normally MW/F, and recitations on TR. I think exams were during the evening on a M or W, and we were expected to go over the exams (and return them) during the following recitation. I guess that's why we were expected to grade everything so quickly. There seems to be a bit more hand-holding in lower-level classes at public schools.