Reading Knowledge of Greek, Latin, German, and French

[Adequate Philosopher]

I have a question for you historians of philosophy: How did you acquire reading knowledge of a foreign language? Did you take a class? If so, which one(s)? Did you study the language on your own? If so, which books did you buy and/or self-teaching services did you use?

I will begin pursuing a terminal MA this fall, and my main interests are in the history of philosophy. I like it all, but if I had to specify, I would choose early modern philosophy as an AOS. One conspicuous weak spot in my CV is a lack of reading knowledge of the four main languages historians of philosophy need to know. (Ancient) Greek and Latin will be easy--classes in the classics are almost always geared towards reading knowledge of the language. 

However, for those of you who have reading knowledge of French and/or German, did you take college classes or study the language on your own? Classes in German and French typically put a considerable emphasis on conversing in the language. All else being equal, I'd love to be able to converse in French and German, but what I'm really concerned about is reading knowledge.

I appreciate any help you have to offer!

[MtnDuck]

Disclaimer: I am not a historian of philosophy but I was originally trained as a classicist. While you could take beginner classes during your MA, teaching yourself is more than doable (at least for the basics). For Latin, Wheelock's is the way to go in my opinion (unless you want a more entertaining approach with Cambridge). Likewise for Ancient Greek; there are a handful of introductory readers though I favor Hansen and Quinn or the book published by Hackett. The reason I recommend learning the basics on your own first, rather than necessarily taking a class, is that in intermediate and upper level courses you would learn the nuances of the language. Baby Greek and baby Latin introduce the basics, not the nuances. The nuances, along with brute knowledge of vocab, are where folks can sometimes struggle.

A few of the classicists I know taught themselves French using Vis-à-Vis: Beginning French (and that is the series I used then I was learning some French) and stay up to speed using duolingo or some other smartphone app. I, personally, am favorable of taking in-person courses for living languages due to the many nuances that might otherwise get glossed over if you were to teach yourself. Myself and a cohort member will be taking German in the fall.

If there is a course in PIE based etymology (i.e., Greek and Latin etymology) it may be useful to sit in on it. Learning the roots and about morphology can help you learn both the dead languages and the modern ones that are on the PIE tree. If you attend some institutions, such as Virginia Tech , you get free access to Rosetta Stone as a student. 

[Establishment]

A number of graduate philosophy programs (and probably a few other programs where this would be relevant, say in the Classics) offer language courses for graduate students with this in mind. These courses will be focused on reading ability, and, since the students are graduate students, will be accelerated. In fact, these sorts of courses are nigh on necessary for languages like French and German, unless you're going to study on your own (which is a perfectly acceptable way of doing it), considering how colossally slow and useless it would be for a graduate student to sit through undergraduate 101 language courses, learning how to introduce yourself and talk about food.

[abreak]

Like MtnDuck I was also originally trained as a classicist, but currently in a philosophy program. I've studied Latin and Greek for about 6 years, French for about 3, and German for about 2. For all of these I've done a mixture of formal classroom study, and informal study (reading groups, independent study, etc.), and I was also able to do a 5 week intensive immersion program for French.

Here's a few pieces of advice: I would strongly recommend not teaching yourself Latin or Greek but taking classes instead. The grammar of both Latin and Greek is significantly different from English as well as many European languages that are commonly studied like Spanish and French (German is an exception, however). If you don't get a good mastery of this early on (which could be quite difficult to do if you're working by yourself), then there's a good chance that your ability in the language will be severely handicapped.

You're right that French and German classes usually focus on conversational skills, and it's often a pain to sit through an intro class with undergrads, most of whom are probably just trying to fulfill a requirement. Nonetheless, I've personally found that independent studying (focusing on grammar and reading skills) and classroom work (confusing on conversational skills) reinforce each other really well, if you're able to either make it through the intro classes or skip them somehow. 

If you want to do some independent study, I've had a bunch of friends speak highly of the book French for Reading. I never used it, but apparently it's the best textbook if you want to teach yourself reading knowledge of the language. I don't really have any recommendations for German though since most my German work has been through taking classes.

Edited March 27, 2016 by abreak

[thatsjustsemantics]

Can anyone chime in on the possibility of studying non-standard languages in graduate programs for philosophy? I can speak and read French at a near-proficient level. I'm bored by European languages, and I just don't care for European culture in general (I came to recognize this after spending a year traveling in Europe). 

I want to learn Arabic, Russian, or Japanese. Not only do these languages and cultures tentatively interest me, but I think they're better for alt-academic jobs in case the system beats me. Has anyone studied any language besides German or French without having to make a rigorous case for why that language impacts your research? I just want to learn a non-European language.

Edited March 27, 2016 by thatsjustsemantics

[NathanKellen]

29 minutes ago, thatsjustsemantics said:

Can anyone chime in on the possibility of studying non-standard languages in graduate programs for philosophy? I can speak and read French at a near-proficient level. I'm bored by European languages, and I just don't care for European culture in general (I came to recognize this after spending a year traveling in Europe). 

I want to learn Arabic, Russian, or Japanese. Not only do these languages and cultures tentatively interest me, but I think they're better for alt-academic jobs in case the system beats me. Has anyone studied any language besides German or French without having to make a rigorous case for why that language impacts your research? I just want to learn a non-European language.

I would imagine that your department wouldn't be too happy to see you spending significant amounts of time on things not directly related to your studies.

[MtnDuck]

25 minutes ago, abreak said:

[...]

Here's a few pieces of advice: I would strongly recommend not teaching yourself Latin or Greek but taking classes instead. The grammar of both Latin and Greek is significantly different from English as well as many European languages that are commonly studied like Spanish and French (German is an exception, however). If you don't get a good mastery of this early on (which could be quite difficult to do if you're working by yourself), then there's a good chance that your ability in the language will be severely handicapped.

[...]

Not sure if I agree with that, or at least I don't agree strongly. While the grammar of Latin and Greek is different, many of the texts I have used both to learn the languages and for teaching them to undergrads and younger children do a decent job at emphasizing how the grammar differs from contemporary English constructions and is similar, to an extent, to non-English, PIE tree languages wrt/ declining and conjugating words (though not with sentence order). I think with a decent enough book, and the internet, some folks at least would be able to grasp the morphological changes in Greek and Latin and discern how the sentence constructions, while different from English, make sense. Personally, sitting in a semester course where you memorize declension charts, how to conjugate verbs, and get repeatedly told that you can't just read the sentence left to right may not be the best use of time (for at least some folks). 

So, maybe Adequate Philosopher would have success on their own with the languages, and maybe they would need an accelerated IS/class. It would just depend, as it does for all of us, on what kind of structure they need to be successful. 

[abreak]

11 minutes ago, MtnDuck said:

Not sure if I agree with that, or at least I don't agree strongly. While the grammar of Latin and Greek is different, many of the texts I have used both to learn the languages and for teaching them to undergrads and younger children do a decent job at emphasizing how the grammar differs from contemporary English constructions and is similar, to an extent, to non-English, PIE tree languages wrt/ declining and conjugating words (though not with sentence order). I think with a decent enough book, and the internet, some folks at least would be able to grasp the morphological changes in Greek and Latin and discern how the sentence constructions, while different from English, make sense. Personally, sitting in a semester course where you memorize declension charts, how to conjugate verbs, and get repeatedly told that you can't just read the sentence left to right may not be the best use of time (for at least some folks). 

So, maybe Adequate Philosopher would have success on their own with the languages, and maybe they would need an accelerated IS/class. It would just depend, as it does for all of us, on what kind of structure they need to be successful. 

You make a good point. Perhaps I'm making too many assumptions or reflecting too much on my own experience. Maybe it would be better to say that if you dedicate yourself strongly to a language, then it might not make much of a difference whether you study it inside or outside the classroom; conversely if you don't put in the effort, then attending a class won't help you much anyways.

[gughok]

3 hours ago, NathanKellen said:

I would imagine that your department wouldn't be too happy to see you spending significant amounts of time on things not directly related to your studies.

Depends on the department. I know of places that have learnt to relax their language requirements to basically "any language", since each can contribute in its own way to one's studies.

[MtnDuck]

1 hour ago, gughok said:

Depends on the department. I know of places that have learnt to relax their language requirements to basically "any language", since each can contribute in its own way to one's studies.

Heck, some departments don't even have a language requirement anymore. 

[Adequate Philosopher]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

I suppose the short answer is: It varies, based in part on the language and the way one learns.

[maxhgns]

6 hours ago, thatsjustsemantics said:

Can anyone chime in on the possibility of studying non-standard languages in graduate programs for philosophy? I can speak and read French at a near-proficient level. I'm bored by European languages, and I just don't care for European culture in general (I came to recognize this after spending a year traveling in Europe). 

I want to learn Arabic, Russian, or Japanese. Not only do these languages and cultures tentatively interest me, but I think they're better for alt-academic jobs in case the system beats me. Has anyone studied any language besides German or French without having to make a rigorous case for why that language impacts your research? I just want to learn a non-European language.

 

If there's a language requirement, you'll usually have to make a case for learning a "non-standard" language, especially if you want the department to contribute towards the costs. What matters is getting your advisor(s) on board: they'll pave the way for you (or not).

[AnonymousMonad]

I took three semesters of German as an undergraduate. Still can't read philosophy in German (haven't done any German in a year) but I have the basic foundation to build off of. I'm planning on working through April Wilson's German Quickly book this summer. I'm pretty poor with languages though (my work ethic could be better in this area too); I know some philosophers who have taught themselves German.

But I think that, in general, the language learning infrastructure (in America) is terrible. We are required generally to take a few semesters of language classes in college and high school. But why so late? Isn't the best time to learn languages when we are in elementary school? And, when we do take language classes in college they are 4 days a week for an hour a day. Obviously that's not the most efficient way to learn a language. Seems like the best way to learn a language would be to live immersed in it for a few weeks—I imagine 8 weeks of German immersion (where you can't use English) in the summer would be more beneficial than 3 semesters of German classes. The problem, of course, is that the immersion style programs are so rare and expensive. I got accepted into Middlebury's language school for the summer (by the way, they have other languages as well), with a grant that covers half the tuition, but I still don't have quite enough to go. But that does seem to be the most efficient way to learn. Would be interested in hearing others' experiences.

 

Edit: One other thing. They say, in philosophy only reading knowledge is important. It's true that reading knowledge in German, for example, is a must if you're doing Kant. I'm skeptical that it's all that helpful to divorce language-for-reading from language-for-living. So yeah, I bet there are a lot of philosophers that can read, say, Kant in his original language, but couldn't speak or live in a German environment. But I'm just skeptical that their reading of German is really authentic when it's divorced from knowledge of living in German. But maybe I'm making a lot of unwarranted language assumptions. Would be interested in hearing others' views on this.

Edited March 28, 2016 by AnonymousMonad

[LLeuven]

1 hour ago, AnonymousMonad said:

I took three semesters of German as an undergraduate. Still can't read philosophy in German (haven't done any German in a year) but I have the basic foundation to build off of. I'm planning on working through April Wilson's German Quickly book this summer. I'm pretty poor with languages though (my work ethic could be better in this area too); I know some philosophers who have taught themselves German.

But I think that, in general, the language learning infrastructure (in America) is terrible. We are required generally to take a few semesters of language classes in college and high school. But why so late? Isn't the best time to learn languages when we are in elementary school? And, when we do take language classes in college they are 4 days a week for an hour a day. Obviously that's not the most efficient way to learn a language. Seems like the best way to learn a language would be to live immersed in it for a few weeks—I imagine 8 weeks of German immersion (where you can't use English) in the summer would be more beneficial than 3 semesters of German classes. The problem, of course, is that the immersion style programs are so rare and expensive. I got accepted into Middlebury's language school for the summer (by the way, they have other languages as well), with a grant that covers half the tuition, but I still don't have quite enough to go. But that does seem to be the most efficient way to learn. Would be interested in hearing others' experiences.

 

Edit: One other thing. They say, in philosophy only reading knowledge is important. It's true that reading knowledge in German, for example, is a must if you're doing Kant. I'm skeptical that it's all that helpful to divorce language-for-reading from language-for-living. So yeah, I bet there are a lot of philosophers that can read, say, Kant in his original language, but couldn't speak or live in a German environment. But I'm just skeptical that their reading of German is really authentic when it's divorced from knowledge of living in German. But maybe I'm making a lot of unwarranted language assumptions. Would be interested in hearing others' views on this.

 

April Wilson's German Quickly is an exceptional book for learning German on your own. A peer of mine studied over the summer before his 1st year using that book and some vocabulary flashcards and passed his German language proficiency exam that Fall. I will be doing the same this summer if anyone is interested in also getting the book and perhaps having some sort of online reading circle. Part of the reading circle could be communicating in German, which I personally believe is important for understanding.

AnonymousMonad- My thought would be that a knowledge of "language-for-living", as you say, would help one maintain their understanding of sentence structure and grammar. Having to construct one's own sentences in dialogue is wonderful practice. Also- if one is serious about wanting to study German texts, it would be nice to be able to speak the language with those you might be in contact with when trying to hunt down documents! Personally, I would love to do some work with the Husserl archives in the future, and am maintaining my speaking knowledge of Dutch for that purpose. It is much easier to navigate Flanders when you speak Dutch.

[xypathos]

I'll also add a plug for the services of Thorsten Moritz, a German theologian at United Seminary in Minnesota. He has a two course sequence on German, 1) basic grammar and 2) Modern theological German that he has prerecorded lessons for. We stayed in contact 2-3x a week, on top of the 42 hours of taped instruction. I was able to handle Moltmann and Pannenberg, as promised, with nominal difficulty once I finished the course. I took my German exam this semester and was marked as Exceptional Mastery.

http://theologicalgerman.com/Home.html - $500 for both courses or $250 for one.

While I was doing theological German, the skills would still be applicable to philosophy.

[ClassApp]

I think we are missing some of the most important information here:

Have you studied a foreign language previously? If so, how did you do?

If you've successfully learned another language before, it will make learning other languages on your own a million times easier. If you have not studied a foreign language previously at all (or were unsuccessful), I think that attempting to learn on your own without any course or guidance would be an inefficient use of your time--it will take you much, much longer to figure it out on your own for the first time.

I have to warn that I am also a classicist, but I would recommend taking Latin first for several reasons:

A) As you mentioned, it's largely taught for reading knowledge right from the start.

B ) Latin has a relatively small regular vocabulary (especially compared to Greek or German) so you'll be able to read texts more quickly with less brute vocab study (there will be a lot of this regardless)

C) Latin is grammar-heavy. The first thing you'll be doing is learning all about the declension system, the conjugation system, etc. This will be extremely helpful when you learn your other languages, like Greek and German, and you're already all too familiar with the dative and future passive participles. It will also allow you to study other languages on your own much more easily.

D) The vocabulary that you do need to learn will translate extremely easily over to French (and Italian and Spanish and Portuguese...). It's extremely easy for me (as a classicist with no formal Italian training) to read Italian. Even if this isn't really a required language, it will open up more opportunities for your own research, and it's great to be able to put down reading knowledge of other languages on your CV with so little extra training.

E) Greek textbooks (and courses) largely assume an audience already familiar with Latin (and therefore can occasionally gloss over important grammar information). Latin courses do not assume prior knowledge of another foreign language. In addition, Latin is significantly more regular than Greek. Ancient Greek is pockmarked with irregularities and is therefore extremely difficult for a first-time foreign language learner (or, frankly, even a second-time one). Much, much more brute memorization.

F) German's structure is much more similar to the structure of English than Latin/Greek/even French are. This makes it easier for you as a native English speaker to teach yourself German than to teach yourself Latin/Greek/even French.

Edited March 31, 2016 by ClassApp

[bechkafish]

A lot of universities with graduate programs in comparative literature / classics / romance languages, etc., offer intensive summer courses designed to get you from a point of virtually no familiarity to a comfortable reading knowledge in about eight to ten weeks. They can be expensive, but if you're receiving financial aid through your home institution, you might be able to cover it. I took an eight-week intensive in German for Reading Knowledge at Harvard last summer and damn - I recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone who (a) really wants to learn a language, and (b) is willing to spend literally forty hours a week working on it.

[Adequate Philosopher]

On 3/31/2016 at 3:13 AM, ClassApp said:

I think we are missing some of the most important information here:

Have you studied a foreign language previously? If so, how did you do?

If you've successfully learned another language before, it will make learning other languages on your own a million times easier. If you have not studied a foreign language previously at all (or were unsuccessful), I think that attempting to learn on your own without any course or guidance would be an inefficient use of your time--it will take you much, much longer to figure it out on your own for the first time.

I have to warn that I am also a classicist, but I would recommend taking Latin first for several reasons:

A) As you mentioned, it's largely taught for reading knowledge right from the start.

B ) Latin has a relatively small regular vocabulary (especially compared to Greek or German) so you'll be able to read texts more quickly with less brute vocab study (there will be a lot of this regardless)

C) Latin is grammar-heavy. The first thing you'll be doing is learning all about the declension system, the conjugation system, etc. This will be extremely helpful when you learn your other languages, like Greek and German, and you're already all too familiar with the dative and future passive participles. It will also allow you to study other languages on your own much more easily.

D) The vocabulary that you do need to learn will translate extremely easily over to French (and Italian and Spanish and Portuguese...). It's extremely easy for me (as a classicist with no formal Italian training) to read Italian. Even if this isn't really a required language, it will open up more opportunities for your own research, and it's great to be able to put down reading knowledge of other languages on your CV with so little extra training.

E) Greek textbooks (and courses) largely assume an audience already familiar with Latin (and therefore can occasionally gloss over important grammar information). Latin courses do not assume prior knowledge of another foreign language. In addition, Latin is significantly more regular than Greek. Ancient Greek is pockmarked with irregularities and is therefore extremely difficult for a first-time foreign language learner (or, frankly, even a second-time one). Much, much more brute memorization.

F) German's structure is much more similar to the structure of English than Latin/Greek/even French are. This makes it easier for you as a native English speaker to teach yourself German than to teach yourself Latin/Greek/even French.

I've taken a few Spanish classes. Reading I found to be quite easy, but speaking Spanish was tough for me. However, I should note that I probably wasn't studying as hard as I should have.