MTS, MDiv, ThM Help!

[hardy1123]

Hello,

I'm writing in hopes of getting some advice regarding MTS and Mdiv programs in the US. I finished my bachelors at Brown in an unrelated field (studio art) in May of 2015 but became interested in pursuing an MTS or Mdiv after taking some coursework in theology and medieval philosophy. I am particularly interested in what I have heard called 'philosophical theology', although this designation seems a little loose; I just use it here to refer to the work of people like Plantinga, McCord Adams, MacKinnon, Alston, and Wolterstorff who borrow heavily from philosophy and don't seem too caught up with orthodoxy (maybe it's just a branch of apologetics, I'm not sure). Anyway, in pursuing this interest I found myself becoming interested in the Ministry or chaplaincy work and am now hoping to find a way to move forward with both interests simultaneously. I've been considering an MTS as this seems to be somewhere in the middle in terms of keeping open both possibilities as well as being the most well suited to someone coming from a different field (read: not knowing anything). But, I was hoping to get some advice on this... so, I have four questions. 

1. For anyone who is either working towards or has completed an MTS, Mdiv, or (the mysterious) ThM: How is theology approached in these programs? For someone interested in philosophy would an advanced degree in kind maybe be a better bet? Is there wiggle room in these programs for people interested in philosophy? 

2. I've been having trouble finding MTS programs other than the one at HDS, does anyone have any others they could recommend checking out?

3. Is there any coursework that might be beneficial to try before applying?

4. What's up with things like Doctor of Divinity and all those weird ones from Catholic Pontifical Universities?

Thanks for your time!

Edited April 1, 2016 by hardy1123

[xypathos]

1) ThM degrees are for post-MDiv. They're fairly exclusively used to grab an extra bit of coursework before embarking on a PhD. Generally they're done at the same institution as the PhD (though not always) and sometimes they're (or a plain MA) issued to PhD students along the way as they finalize coursework though this seems to be rarer. Now, how theology is approached is entirely dependent on the school you attend. YDS is fairly Anglican/Episcopalian with a smattering of other, Harvard seems fairly well rounded though progressive mainstream, VDS is heavy on Methodism and Presbyterian/Calvinism. So really, you need to identify where you fall theologically and then choose the school from there. Since you went to Brown and studied arts, I'll presume you would find Harvard, Yale, Vandy, and Chicago as acceptable places. PTS and Duke would likely be okay too.

More to your concern for what "philosophical theology" is - really it's just an attempt to utilize philosophical tools within the study of theology. That is, it's a theological process that is not only open but adamant that the use of reason and experience is absolutely vital. So yes, it's apologist but really all of theology is to some degree. Philosophical theologians, largely, go where the evidence leads them - as opposed to only using evidence which leads them to where they want to go. Off topic but Vincent Brümmer is my favorite philosophical theologian.

2) All of the top schools have MTS programs, though not all call them MTS. MTS is largely equivalent to an MA from a secular Department of Religious Studies at say Harvard. Both take approx. 2 years to complete and utilize a thesis and/or language studies. Yale calls theirs the MAR (MA in Religion) for example, Vandy uses MTS, etc.

3) No - I've seen people be exceptional students MDiv and MA/MTS/MAR without a single undergraduate course in religion. Most MDiv programs presume zero incoming knowledge for students, whereas MTS programs sometimes prefer at least a tangential relationship, such as history courses. If you're wanting to study theology and you've never taken a religion, philosophy, or history course that might raise an eyebrow but definitely not kill an application.

4) DD degrees are for practicing ministers. They involve courses and workshops to refine their skills as a minister. Usually they specialize in say Homiletics, Church planting, Spirituality, etc. Sometimes schools will offer a D.Min which is largely the same as a DD. The difference is in schools that offer a ThD (Doctor of Theology), the degree is nearly identical to a PhD though the student is usually focusing on a theological problem that is specifically "church related." Harvard use to offer a ThD (now everyone is a PhD), Duke for the time being offers a ThD, ThDs are still common at some European schools.

 

The general rule of thumb has always been: If you know you want to go into the academic study of religion and have NO interest in ministry, the MTS is fine. If you feel that you might want to do ministry (or know you do), then you should get an MDiv. Almost always if you're on the fence and you have the extra year, it's advantageous to do the MDiv. 1) The money is almost always better as an MDiv student unless you can land a prestigious fellowship, and 2) extra coursework = better recommendations and writing sample. As far as coursework is concerned: Yes, if you take the MDiv route you'll have more requirements but your top schools are quite flexible on what satisfies those requirements. For example: Yale, Harvard, and Vandy all either require or strongly encourage doing a year long ministry placement as part of your coursework. For myself, I'm discerning a call to academic ministry so through my school my "Supervised Ministry" placement was TAing undergraduate courses in religion. I have friends at Harvard and Yale doing the same at local schools. YDS, HDS, VDS, Chicago, etc realize that not everyone going into an MDiv is intending to lead a church so they're willing to shape the curriculum to the student.

I hope some of this was helpful. Glad to answer more questions or to speak about specific schools. If I cannot answer them I know students and administrators at all of the schools which can, and there's definitely people on this board that can. My biggest suggestion right now is to narrow down a list of schools that you would likely feel comfortable at given the theo-poltico-social leanings of the faculty and staff, but also the ability of the school and you to get to where you want to be.

[theophany]

On April 1, 2016 at 0:37 AM, xypathos said:

4) DD degrees are for practicing ministers. They involve courses and workshops to refine their skills as a minister. Usually they specialize in say Homiletics, Church planting, Spirituality, etc. Sometimes schools will offer a D.Min which is largely the same as a DD. The difference is in schools that offer a ThD (Doctor of Theology), the degree is nearly identical to a PhD though the student is usually focusing on a theological problem that is specifically "church related." Harvard use to offer a ThD (now everyone is a PhD), Duke for the time being offers a ThD, ThDs are still common at some European schools.

One emendation on this. The D.D. in the US is an honorary degree, and not an earned one. It is usually conferred by universities on distinguished alumni, on graduation speakers, on major figures in public/academic life in the field of religion, or (for Anglicans and Catholics, at least) on bishops.

On April 1, 2016 at 10:25 PM, hardy1123 said:

 all those weird ones from Catholic Pontifical Universities?

As for Catholic Pontifical Universities, in theology they offer 3 degrees: the S.T.B. (Bachelor of Sacred Theology), roughly equivalent to an M.Div.; the S.T.L. (Licentiate of...), roughly equivalent to the Th.M./S.T.M., a prerequisite to teach in Pontifical Universities and for admission to the doctorate; and the S.T.D. (Doctor of...) , roughly equivalent to the Ph.D./Th.D.

Pontifical Universities have three faculties (philosophy, theology, and canon law), and each has this basic pattern of the "higher" bachelors (Ph.B., J.C.B., S.T.B.), the licentiate (Ph.L., J.C.L., S.T.L.), and doctorate (Ph.D., J.C.D., S.T.D.)—this is a style of degree sequence common outside of North America.

Edited April 2, 2016 by theophany

[cadences]

6 hours ago, theophany said:

One emendation on this. The D.D. in the US is an honorary degree, and not an earned one. It is usually conferred by universities on distinguished alumni, on graduation speakers, on major figures in public/academic life in the field of religion, or (for Anglicans and Catholics, at least) on bishops.

Yes; I believe xypathos was thinking of the DMin when s/he was making her/his remarks on the DD. In the UK, the DD is an honorary degree too, and considered the highest honour a theology/divinity department can confer.

[Asmahd]

Hi guys, 

i have 2 questions about MTS degree,specially in candler,emory. 

i'm working on my MA thesis in Religions & Mysticism in one of my home country's ( Iran ) universities. i would like to continue my studies in USA.and i want to apply for another MA and maybe MTS degree. but i dont know that, being a muslim has limitation for me to apply for MTS degree or not? another problem i have is that, if i apply to MTS in candler, can i cover my tuition and fees with their fund or not ?

[sacklunch]

On 8/28/2016 at 7:56 AM, Asmahd said:

Hi guys, 

i have 2 questions about MTS degree,specially in candler,emory. 

i'm working on my MA thesis in Religions & Mysticism in one of my home country's ( Iran ) universities. i would like to continue my studies in USA.and i want to apply for another MA and maybe MTS degree. but i dont know that, being a muslim has limitation for me to apply for MTS degree or not? another problem i have is that, if i apply to MTS in candler, can i cover my tuition and fees with their fund or not ?

At most of the top divinity schools in this country, being Muslim will likely help your chances of admission. They like certain kinds of diversity; often this means Muslims, Jews, and other religious minorities in this part of the world. You should also check out different ThM degrees, since I believe some of big divinity schools have full funding for international applicants.