Courses to offset weak quant score

[quietman]

Hi,

After being shut out this cycle I have looked into ways to strengthen perhaps the weakest component of my application--my quant score. I have taken no economics or math courses, so I am looking to enroll in a few.

Does anyone know which sources of instruction are considered legitimate by adcoms? For example, would taking a course through Stanford Online be accepted? Or does one need to actually attend a course in person at a college/university and have documentation of that (e.g. an audit notation on a transcript)? I work a full-time job and am struggling to find in-person courses that fit with my schedule.

Thank you

Edited May 2, 2016 by quietman

[Ben414]

I don't think schools care if the courses are online or in-person as long as the course content is the same, but I know some schools don't count courses that don't have a grade. Auditing probably isn't the way to go.

[quietman]

Thanks--I will look into those.

Do you have an idea of whether 155 is generally a prohibitive quant score for the top MPP programs (I'm 170 and 6 on the other sections)? I've seen people say that admits to HKS/WWS very rarely have below the high 150s, with scores in that range even being near the lower margin. This obviously isn't law school in terms of the importance of test scores in the admission process, but I wonder if my quant score is so low that just on that basis it's unlikely that I'd be admitted to a top program (and hence perhaps my focus should be elsewhere).  I've done fine in methods classes I took as part of my major and the type of work I'd do after graduation would have few quantative aspects, so the thought of being rejected because I didn't do well on that portion of the GRE is frustrating.

 

 

[CakeTea]

There is no GRE Quant score cutoff, adcomms look at GPA, work and leadership roles too. I think the average WWS/HKS GRE Q is in the low 160s. But I have seen some people admitted with high 150s. Other good programs such as SIPA, Georgetown, SAIS and Fletcher are happy to accept applicants with mid 150s score.

If you are a total poet, you can take some online extension courses. UCLA extension was mentioned by a few other posters who needed to beef up Q on their application. Popular courses for beginners are microeconomics, calculus and statistics. Great job on 170 V and 6 AWA. Good luck

[Alphyn]

Man,  I'm in the same boat as you (and I did even worse in quant).

Ben's right, most universities won't care where the course came from as long as there's a grade/some verifiable way of showing you completed it. It could be from a university extension program, a community college, a continuing education program, etc. They care more about the material being tested the right way and the fact that you went out and worked that extra mile then prestige. This is especially true since you aced the other two portions of the test. 

As for what type of courses, I'd recommend some mix of the following:

• Introductory  Macroeconomics
• Introductory Microeconomics 
• Calculus 
• Introductory Statistics
• Principles of Accounting
• Intermediate Macroeconomics
•  Intermediate Microeconomics

According to the fellow liberal arts majors I've asked, that tends to be enough to show programs that you can handle the material. In all honesty if your work experience/SOPs/LORs/GPA are all good, you should be able to get into a good program even with an iffy quant score. 

 

[quietman]

Thanks for the responses guys!

Has anyone actually seen a case of someone with a quant score as low as mine being admitted the HKS/WWS?

Edited May 2, 2016 by quietman

[CakeTea]

Your GRE score is not low. the V is stellar and the Q is solid. It may reflect your (liberal arts) major fairly and adcomms may factor this in. I have seen a few cases of liberal arts majors who got admitted with 156Q and 162V. I think WWS, HKS and Goldman admits tend to have higher GRE stats. Relatively low acceptance rates at your target schools WWS (8%) and HKS (20%).

[ajak568]

A few ideas/my two cents:

1. Don't get tunnel vision! HKS and WWS are great programs, but there are other great policy schools out there with solid quant programs that don't get talked about on GradCafe as much (Michigan, Duke, etc.). Look into some of those and see if they might fit what you're looking for.

2. If you're worried about your quant score and you mentioned that you're not looking for a job that emphasizes quantitative skill anyway, it may even be worth investigating programs that are more qualitative. A 155 quant score is not bad at all, but if you're not even looking for a quant-related job, maybe consider investigating programs that put less emphases on that aspect of policy. (Unless policy analysis training is what you're looking for. In which case, disregard this point.)

3. See: #1.

4. Admissions to some programs are a little bit of a crapshoot anyway. Even with perfect test scores/GPA/recommendations/etc., you never really know. There's not secret algorithm for this. All you can do is put your best foot forward!

Good luck!

[monocle]

On 5/2/2016 at 10:21 AM, Ben414 said:

I don't think schools care if the courses are online or in-person as long as the course content is the same, but I know some schools don't count courses that don't have a grade. Auditing probably isn't the way to go.

For online courses, BYU, UCLA, and UT seem to be the most popular ones. UT has self-paced courses, which could fit any schedule. I'm not sure if BYU or UCLA has self-paced courses, but at least they'll have regular semester schedule online courses that should be low enough hours per week to probably fit into your schedule.

I want to highly emphasize receiving a grade. Don't audit a course unless you are planning to take a graded course afterwards. You could do the calculus series very affordably at a local community college, it's all the same material for the first two or three courses whether at UC Berkeley or Indiana Technical Community College, so I'd save your money and not do an expensive, online, name-brand uni course. Your GRE quant is definitely not going to be prohibitive. But your problem with quant is probably that you haven't taken any college math courses (meaning even if you had calc credit it was from high school, so no one will count it).

Yes, there are cases of people with lower quant scores getting into WWS/HKS. Why? Because unique work experience and a good personal/professional narrative are more important factors. I saw your previous "Where did I go wrong thread," and you hit a couple of the big concerns  "minimal quantitative/econ-related coursework, no time abroad" but to me your weakest point is probably work experience. But by numbers alone you also seem like the type that could be a crapshoot admit any given year (I mean that in the best way haha).

You wrote that your SOP was about an interest in education policy which is somewhat incoherent with your work experience. So you should focus on showing how you will further your career as an education policy professional (by gaining strong WE in that sector).

You also said you had 2 letters of recommendation from Professors and only one from an employer, which you should reverse next time as these are professional schools and unless your professors advised you in a work setting or are practitioners themselves they would probably only be able to speak to your intellect and potential in the classroom (not outside it).

[quietman]

Thanks for the very helpful responses!

@ajak (wow at those admissions results) I am definitely going to broaden my focus and apply more widely this time

@monocle Thanks for the input about the courses. I was initially thinking about just auditing them but it seems like that certainly isn't the way to go. Since applying the first time I have gotten a job that more strongly ties into my interest in education policy than any previous job, so I'm hoping that will help me craft a more coherent narrative.

 

[quietman]

Hey guys,

One more question.....would principals of micro and principals of macro cut it as supplemental coursework? Or do I need more than those two for it to make much of a difference?

Thanks!

[energizer92]

quietman, I've been reading your posts here for the past year or so, and I'm registering an account for the first time to give you some advice that I hope you will heed. If you have your heart set on HKS - and it very much seems you do - you will need to retake the GRE and get a higher quant score. You will not be admitted with a 155 quant score, full stop. I know this runs contrary to much of the advice you have gotten above, and may even seem mean-spirited and deliberately disheartening, but I'm telling you the truth with the hope you'll save yourself a lot of trouble down the line, and furthermore, I am in a position to know the veracity of my statements.

Here's a dirty little secret about admissions at the very top programs, e.g. WWS and HKS: they toss most applications with sub-70% GRE quant scores unless the applicant has a major offset (minority applicant, incredible life story, CEO of their own successful company, military, etc.). They look askance on applications in the 70%-75% percentiles, as well. Above 75% you're probably fine, and above 80% they're looking at other parts of your application. If you really want to go to HKS, you'll want to pull at least a 160 on your GRE retake.

Now, if you call the admissions office at HKS right now and ask them, they'll tell you they take a holistic approach and that no one factor is responsible for an applicant being admitted or denied. Hogwash. Quant scores are a huge factor in rejections, and rightfully so: they are an easily readable metric that all aspiring applicants present, and they correlate relatively well with future success in grad school and down the road. Low quant is an application killer, doubly so if you're just a run-of-the-mill candidate with a high GPA/verbal GRE combo, of which there are many.

I should note here that it wasn't always this way, that five years ago you may have been able to swing this. But the times have changed. HKS is more selective than ever, and they're not rolling out the red carpet for sub-70% quants.

Your strategy of taking supplemental quant coursework, while not terrible and probably a good idea on its own merit, will not overcome your 155 Q. You will be rejected again by HKS, and will have wasted two years of your life trying to get into Harvard. Instead of spending thousands on statistics and econ classes, you would be infinitely better served by bumping your GRE score five points. Until then, that 155 is the kiss of death to your Harvard dreams.

That's the bad news. The good news, and you should really take this to heart, is that you can easily get a 160+ on your GRE. Seriously, it's not that difficult, especially for someone capable of getting a 99% score on the much harder LSAT. Five measly points comprised of high school level geometry and algebra and some number theory questions are all that stand between you and a successful HKS application (assuming the rest of your app is up to snuff). I find it almost inconceivable someone who could get admitted to HLS can't get into HKS if they put their mind to it; I am completely certain of your ability to get into HKS if you're willing to put the time into the GRE like you did the LSAT. Your problem is you've psyched yourself into believing you can't crack the GRE quant, when in reality you could have probably already retaken and gotten a 160+ by now. Logic games are harder than 99% of all GRE quant questions, and you did pretty well on those, yes?

I'm not writing all this to discourage, merely to tell you how things are. I'd hate to see you waste yet another year taking supplemental courses, only to be crushed when you get rejected again. You're completely capable of going to HKS, but it's not happening with a 155 quant score on your GRE, no matter how many As in stats/econ/calc courses you stack up in the mean time. You have to believe in yourself, and should be very encouraged by your LSAT score.

Who am I? How do I know all this? I have a personal relationship with a member of the HKS admissions council. Everything I've written above came directly from the horse's mouth, inasmuch as the horse can speak unofficially. I've seen how the sausage is made at these elite schools, and I simply can't stand idly by and watch you waste your considerable talents on a fool's errand. Take the time, do it right, get the 160+ Q on your GRE, and enjoy your time at HKS.

Final thought: you don't have to believe me. I could just be some random guy making stuff up on the Internet. Maybe you will be the extreme exception to the rule, and get admitted to HKS with a sub-70% quant score. The odds of this, however, are not in your favor. I sincerely hope you do believe me and take this message to heart. You're totally capable of attending HKS, but you'll need a better score.

Good luck.

[quietman]

Wow, thank you for that detailed response energizer.

You're right that I have mentally boxed myself into a position where I don't believe my Q score can improve. I have a very limited math background and assumed that I don't have enough time to overcome the years of not doing any sort of math. I think my initial Q preparation was probably not as good as it could've been either, as I was so concerned with getting a perfect 170 v and 6w (I pride myself on excelling at those types of questions) that I may have not spent enough time on Q----I also think that may have been an issue of me avoiding what I found difficult, as when test day is coming up it's not a good feeling to be struggling.

Your post has motivated my and I've already pulled out the study guides again. I will not be touching verbal and writing this time, and hopefully the 6.5 months from now untill apps are due will be enough to see improvement. Last time I also didn't leave any time for a retake, which was pretty stupid; I will be sure not to make the same mistake.

[MD guy]

Why not also consider retaking the GRE to raise the quant? It's rather easy to get the score up with targeted studying and it would settle any qualms for you that the GRE is the reason you got shut out. You would also open up doors to the top schools as pointed out by @energizer92. I would recommend this option above all others first. Easiest one to plan out and execute.

[Kaneisha]

@Quietman, I love @energizer92's no-nonsense reply. I would just add that I recommend you give yourself enough time to retake the test three times before the submission deadline. I recommend considering retaking the GRE in July, September, and then mid-November. You don't have to take it all three times, but working on that schedule gives you enough time to take it three times if necessary. If by September's test you haven't broken through to a significantly higher quant score, I recommend taking a self-paced Microeconomics course and either Statistics or Calculus. If you have the time, I'd recommend taking all three. But, yes, concentrate on increasing your GRE score for now!