6% Quant, 80% Verbal

[Judth]

What are my chances for top twenty english programs?

should I just give up and not apply?

[jacib]

What are my chances for top twenty english programs?

should I just give up and not apply?

I might repost this is in the Literature, and Rhetoric and Composition subforum.

[Qin Shi Huandi]

I would retake. Spend a ton of time studying your high school maths, and learning more vocab. Good luck!

[jacib]

I am concerned about your scores in both sections. An 80% on the Verbal section might be good enough for an engineering student, but if you are applying to an English program then you are going to need to score above 700V, which is around the 97%. A 6% score in the Q section isn't going to look good to a top 100 school let alone a top 20 school to any program. While you may not use a lot of math in an English program, certainly very competitive programs are going to be looking for well-rounded candidates to score at least average in both sections.

This is, again, not necessarily true. Many English programs apparently claim they do not even look at the Quant section. Every field is capricious in its own way, often inconsistently at that. Religion (a field in which one is no more likely to use math than in English) demands a very high standard in both sections. However, I have never heard similar things about English. Email programs. Honestly, from the little that I've read on the English forums here, it seems like your verbal score will be more problematic than your quant score. That said, I don't know how English programs weigh scores beyond that some don't even look at quant.

[strokeofmidnight]

Every English department (and often different professors on the same ad-comm in the same department) will look at the GRE scores slightly differently. However, the general rule seems to be that quant counts for very little, if at all. Jacib's views on this are far more consistent with what I've been told (from English professors who serve on ad-comms): many programs (even those within the top ten or top twenty) will not even look at the quant score. At all. For those programs, it won't matter if you scored in the 99th or 1st percentile. Seadub is wrong, I think, about the role that the GRE TENDS to play in English PhD programs. Some schools (the top one in the country, for example) will not look at your GRE score--verbal or quant--at ALL. It's required as a formality for the graduate school, but doesn't factor into the admissions process. In most places, however, the verbal scores DOES factor into the admission process. (700 verbal is a good rule of thumb, but is by no means inflexible. I was admitted into top 10 and ivy league PhD English programs with a lower verbal score). If you look at Duke English's recent statistics, for example, the AVERAGE GRE score of their accepted students last year is a 662 (and average GPA is only a 3.6!), and it's certainly a top ten program: http://gradschool.duke.edu/about/statistics/admiteng.htm . I suspect that Duke places slightly less emphasis on the numbers than some of their top-ranked peers, but this goes to show that the scores certainly are not the most important factors.

It is worth noting, however, that graduate schools (as opposed to the English programs) will sometimes have overall min. that you will need to meet if you want to be considered for funding. Those tend to be on the low side (1000, sometimes 1200) and tend to be most pressing at public schools, where funding is generally tighter. If it's still possible, you might want to consider studying for the quant and re-taking the entire exam. A bit of studying can go a long ways, especially if you're starting off on the low end. A 100 point boost in your quant score (which is far more attainable than it may seem) might not help you secure admission, but it can tip the scale in your favor if you're admitted to a graduate school that has min. requirements for funding.

Then again, it's now almost February, and the PhD deadlines for every top 20 school has already passed. You should find out within a few weeks how you fared. Good luck!

[coyabean]

As they were trying to coerce me into pursuing an English PhD all of the profs in my dept stressed that the expectation at most solid programs WITH FUNDING was above 90th percentile on the verbal. I think YMMV just because departments and their priorities differ greatly. Some departments need TAs and warm bodies to read and if you are willing to do that then they are willing to be flexible. You have more options in English than some other depts. Call and ask. All the schools I contacted were pretty upfront about their GRE expectations.

[strokeofmidnight]

This is an extremely misleading statement. First of all, you are implying that a 662 average on the Verbal Section is surprisingly low for an English PhD admit. You have to realize that it is not the nominal value of your score that is important, but the percentile ranking. As of now, a 662 V translates to the 94th percentile, which would be a very respectable score for any humanities applicant. You seem surprised that the average GPA is "only" a 3.6. Does that seem very low to you? Perhaps you attended an undergraduate institution that was fraught with grade inflation, but it is extremely difficult to judge the caliber of a given student's performance based on a GPA without taking into consideration the grading style of a particular university. The subjective nature of grading is partly the reason why the GRE, which is vastly objective, IS important. Also, you fail to mention that the average Quantitative score for successful applicants in Duke's English Dept was 620, which is in the 52nd percentile. The fact that the average GRE quant scores is actually above average should tell you that successful applicants are either inherently well rounded individuals or that Duke directly takes your performance in the Quantitative section into consideration.

Again, please do not make misleading statements about how scoring in the 1% or the 99% in the quantitative section simply does not matter for English PhDs. Even if the adcom does not focus its primary attention on this score, most successful applicants to top programs tend to be very well rounded anyway and score average or above average in each of the three sections. That is simply fact.

You claim that my info is very misleading, but you fail to explain why or how. Why are my statements wrong? Unless I was lied to by professors on ad-comms at the very schools that you initially named, or am lying (I hope you're not going so far as to accuse of either), you might want to address my arguments. Simply stating that your claims are facts--and mine are misleading--isn't really sufficient.

A few things to note: yes, a 3.6 is "low" compared to other programs that tend to admit applicants who typically graduate with a 3.8 or 3.9. However, I was not at all suggesting that this is TOO low--I'm pointing out that a sky-high GPA isn't necessary. If anything, since there will always be several applicants admitted with a 3.9 or higher, the 3.6 average suggests there are also applicants accepted with sub 3.5 scores. In other words, a very strong GPA isn't absolutely necessary...at least at THIS program. I never indicated that the GPA doesn't matter, or that there isn't at least some correlation between well-prepared applicants and strong grades. I am suggesting, however, that there are plenty of exceptions to that general correlation that should give students room to hope (and of course, to work towards) that they can end up in a top program despite lower numbers.

As for the 620 quant GRE score, two things come to mind.

1. You confuse correlation with causation. It seems perfectly reasonable that many well-prepared applicants (strong writing, enticing statement/project, etc) would also score well on quant. This is especially true at Duke. Thanks to the program's theoretical leaning, many of its students have a math or philosophy as well as English and thus are more likely to also have the skills that would enable one to do well on the quant. section. This by no means indicates that Duke specifically selects for high quant scores. (or for that matter, place great stock in the GRE's at all). Duke's own website emphasizes--and I and several have many times--that it's the writing and SoP that will count far more.

2. 620 Quant isn't bad, but it also isn't very high. It is, as you noted, the 52nd percentile of all individuals that take the GRE. That larger pool includes students who are applying for masters (and on the whole, score a bit lower) and the many students who do not get in at all, as well as students who are shut out of top universities such as Duke. This seems to be a perfectly average score among literature applicants--not a score that is so high that it would suggest the program is specifically selecting for it.

For what it's worth, I was an admitted Duke applicant not too long ago. My quant score is far higher than the listed average. Along we (admitted students) do not routinely discuss this information, I do know that while some of my peers also had such high scores on quant, several others scored hundreds of points below that average. The statistics that are listed doesn't give you a sense of the range, and can't be used for the deduction that are stating as fact.

You might also want to leave the personal attacks out of this conversation.

[Medievalmaniac]

You claim that my info is very misleading, but you fail to explain why or how. Why are my statements wrong?

You might also want to leave the personal attacks out of this conversation.

Don't take this personally, it actually is intended lightheartedly/ jokingly, but REALLY.....

SOM - you're wrong because seadub says you're wrong, and this person apparently knows everything about the GRE and how it is used as a judgment tool at every program in the United States of America - just ask. Haven't you been paying any attention to his or her posties all over this board? How dare you attempt to bring real-world experiences into your explanation for why you believe what you believe about the GRE. Reality has nothing to do with it. It's all about the statistics reported on the internet and in the GRE prep manuals.

Actually, you were not accepted at Duke with your scores, even though you say you were, because Seadub says your score is too low to have gotten in. You actually hallucinated your experiences...

And personal attacks? Ha, ha, hehehehehe. You haven't yet been the recipient of this person's really personal attacks. But if you keep trying to make him or her see reason or accept that his or her view is not "THE" right view, I'm sure you will.

I suggest the "ignore" button.... :rolleyes:

[captiv8ed]

seadub:

For what it's worth, I was an admitted Duke applicant not too long ago. My quant score is far higher than the listed average. Along we (admitted students) do not routinely discuss this information, I do know that while some of my peers also had such high scores on quant, several others scored hundreds of points below that average. The statistics that are listed doesn't give you a sense of the range, and can't be used for the deduction that are stating as fact.

It seems that SOM did indeed apply AND get in to Duke.

And if you have applied and gotten into top programs, congrats. However, that does not mean you are an expert on what schools are looking for.

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Returning to the ORIGINAL post:

Listen, I'm not an expert on this. I don't claim to be, and I don't particularly WANT to be.

Now that the disclaimer is out of the way:

Although an English dept may accept you despite low GRE's (and everyone agrees that for the top-twenty, scoring in the 90th percentile and above is recommended, if above 700V - you've definitely crossed the slushpile bar) due to a stellar GPA, writing sample, SOP, and LORs, you MIGHT have problems with fellowships / TAships. Many universities HAVE to take into account the total GRE score (as strokeofmidnight said before me) to approve funding for candidates. And since (unfortunately or not, not up to me to say), a lot of funding options depend on GRE scores. And since Universities are scrambling for fellowship money, they want to present the most attractive candidates (this is quoted directly from my father, a tenured prof at Brown - although not in the Humanities - but funding is funding is funding, just about anywhere). If you're applying to top-twenty programs, the competition this year is SO tough, and SO many qualified, amazingly smart applicants are in the pool - well, I don't know. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I applied this year with an initial score of 600V / 560Q. I realized very quickly that I most likely WON'T get in to the 4 programs I applied to. Especially since I totally missed the november subject GRE (I decided to apply too late to register for it). So I went and did the silly test again, and registered for the April subject test. I improved scores significantly, and will be applying again next year, confident that at least my app won't be thrown away in the initial sorting.

I recommend that you do the same. The GRE, as crappy as it is, is NOT impossible to prepare for. My scores this time around were much higher than the first time, with only 4 weeks of studying, and were also MUCH higher than the GRE I took right out of college.

If you want above a 700 in the verbal (NOT impossible), crack down and study vocab. READ. LOADS. Read The Economist, Scientific American, read books with advanced vocabulary that uses obscure meanings. Take your dictionary EVERYWHERE. Get the prep books.

To improve the math - hrm - I'd say go back and practice.

However - DO NOT rely on just good GRE scores to get in. Make sure your writing sample and SOP are superb and focused. Make sure your recommendations are excellent.

Good luck!!

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Again, what is to be debated? Maybe Branwen is saying what I have intended to say in a "nicer" way, but the idea is the same.

Sometimes, how you say something makes all the difference. And although content and style aren't completely interrelated, very often, being a tad more empathetic with people that have trouble with this stupid horrible test can go a long way in getting your point across. In many ways, I agree with you - the GRE is with us to stay and we have to suck it up and ace the damn thing. But, some people just need to complain about it. And that's fine. They let off steam. some people hope it won't matter. That's fine, as well. How a response is phrased to reply to these issues with the GRE is completely up to you, of course. Personally, I don't have a problem with WHAT you say. Just sometimes, HOW you choose to say it can be.... problematic, and is probably why so many people get angry at you.

I don't know if you care about it (ppl getting angry at you), but if you do, there are many ways to handle a debate without reaching the levels of annoyance that you've gotten on this forum.

Just a small insight.

[herself the elf]

Seadub, I don't know what discipline you are studying, but in whatever you research you may want to consider your passion for standardized testing. This level of zeal in any topic should not go to waste.

In any case, this is what I would tell a good friend if she felt the way you do. I hope that you don't mind my observation

Good luck to all.

[Genomic Repairman]

Sometimes the delivery is much more important than the content and by that measure seadub has fallen flat on his/her/whatever's face.

[Genomic Repairman]

For someone who espouses the virtues of the GRE your reading comprehension must suck as you obviously did not see that I prefaced my comments with the word sometimes. Once again flat on your face.

[Genomic Repairman]

Sorry seadouche but I didn't vote my own post up but kudos on your utterly crappy rating. I was supporting Branwen's statement that how you say something may have more impact on the recipient than what the message is. If I have to explain what impact is then, you are either grasping at nuances or have less emotional self-awareness than a small child.