Language training

[Karou]

Hi everyone,

Long-time lurker on these message boards, and they are a wonderful source of information! I've been looking around for the answer to this particular question but could not find anything conclusive, forgive me if it's been addressed already.

I'm in the process of applying to Masters programs in History in Europe to start in the Fall of 2017, and I intend to pursue a PhD afterwards, most likely in the US. Although anything can happen and who knows, maybe I'll end up staying in Europe. The plan, however, is to do this MA, either a 2-year program full-time or a one-year program part-time and then head to the US for the PhD. Either way, that means I won't be starting my PhD until September of 2019 (presupposing I get accepted somewhere on my first round), which gives me sufficient time to draft good applications while working really hard on my MA.

Researching programs has led me to understand that languages are a key element of studying history, and that German is especially important (I assumed that French, Italian and German were considered of equal value, but I was wrong!). What's more, German is actually really relevant to the subject I'm hoping to pursue, though not crucial at this point in my academic career. I already have French (mother tongue) and I'm hoping to take some Latin classes as part of my MA (most of the programs I'm applying to offer it as an option, so it all depends on where I get accepted at this point). So I was thinking I'd get started on German, well, now. I have this great big chunk of time until now and next September. I am currently studying etc,  but I can make time and then I don't have to deal with learning the basics of two languages next year, a daunting prospect. I figure if I get the basics "out of the way" now I can continue progressing at my own pace once I'm over that initial hump, which will be easier. This is basically the way I learned English and it worked really well for me, but yeah, gotta get past that first stage of struggling with a new language. 

Now to my question, do I need to take accredited courses (through some language institute or other), or can I essentially teach myself -assuming that I can pull that off? Do I absolutely need substantial proof that I have some knowledge of German through something like transcripts or reports when the time comes to apply to PhD programs or will my stating that I have, say, a reading knowledge of the language suffice this early on? Also, one of my good friends who is fluent in German has suggested that knowing German might make it easier to pick up Latin. Do you agree with that? Or do you think the other way around might be more efficient (start with Latin now, deal with German next year)? Although I do think Latin courses may be harder to come by in my current location, and one of my POIs at one of the programs I'm applying to has done substantial work on early modern Germany, and I was hoping to, for lack of a better word, impress her a bit. Let her know that I'm serious about this, you know, and that I'm taking steps to be as prepared as I can be.

Sorry for the babbling, applications are stressing me out a little bit, as you can probably tell (although, with the exceptions of a couple of programs, Europeans are incredibly chill about application deadlines).

Thanks so much for any help or advice you may be able to give me!

Edited December 27, 2016 by Karou

[xypathos]

How departments certify language ability varies across the states and schools, there's no uniform agreement. That is, generally if there's 2-4 semesters (1-2 years) of a language on your transcript with good grades, then you'll be good to go. Some departments do language tests no matter what though. Some programs will accept participation in an intensive summer language program. Yet again, some departments specifically offer courses that allow you to develop reading competency in a language (with the use of a dictionary) - generally French, German, Spanish, Latin, Greek, and a spattering of Hebrew programs.

If you teach yourself just be prepared to take a language exam - many of us here have done this and it's perfectly acceptable (generally).

I studied Latin in high school and college and found it helped tremendously when studying other Romance languages (I have intermediate French and Spanish, and intermediate reading Romanian (it touches on my research area!)), but found it "relatively useless" when it came to German (admittedly my area requires Low German so a bit different). That said, once you have a system down to learn a language, it helps across the board.

[Karou]

Xypathos, thanks very much for your input!

I surmised that many departments help you develop your language skills once you're in the program, but that having some sort of prior knowledge is always a good thing to have under your belt when you apply (for some programs I think it's even a requirement?). Thank you for the insight on other ways of doing things though, I did not know that some programs offered intensive language programs in the summer. That seems like a really great way to spend a summer!

I can't believe I didn't think of language tests, I went through this with the TOEFL so I should have thought of it. That seems like a good option, once I get my German up to an acceptable level. I do think I'm gonna take the plunge and take a semester of German this winter, and then continue teaching myself once I've grasped the basics of the language (grammar is the bane of my existence and I think I really need lessons to hopefully understand the basic structure of the language before I try and teach myself).

I'm actually a total language nerd so I think that I'm gonna be okay. It's always a little easier to learn something that you're actually really enjoying! Also, I've heard that learning a third language (and fourth and fifth...) is easier than learning a second, so I'm really hoping that's true! It makes sense that that would be the case.

Thanks again for your response, and best of luck with your research.

[TMP]

Don't overkill yourself.  Do whatever you can to pass that reading exam.  You'll improve your German as you conduct research.

However, I should warn you that there are high expectations for mastery of German if you intend to research in Germany.  A lot of grants and fellowships funded by the Federal Government (Fulbright, DAAD (German Academic Exchange Service) and humanities-based programs in German universities do expect a certain level of proficiency and language evaluation forms.  One definite exception, I think, is the DAAD's Intensive Language Grant as it sends you to Germany for 2 months to study German language.   Having said all that, if you think you're going to need to spend time in Germany for research, I'd eventually start working on your oral skills, not just reading.

French is excellent to have for diplomatic relations pre-WWII and culture.  However, German was the business language for the sciences, medicine, and I think military.  However, if you're thinking on transnational terms, then yes, you need German if you're looking to work in most of Central Europe to eastern part of Russia.  But you won't really need it outside of Europe unless you're working on ethnic Germans.

(haha sorry i got carried away.. I just love German history!)

[xypathos]

I'd echo @TMP's reflections as well! What languages are required are entirely dependent on the area and time of what you will be studying. If you're doing something specifically on Germany, then you'll need more than a reading knowledge of German. Your French will be a huge benefit (it would almost certainly be required for a program in the US though since it's your mother tongue it's not something you need to worry about) and whatever German you can pick up beyond a reading ability would be highly beneficial if not required.

A lot of programs include language requirements for specific fields on their website. Should it not be there though, reach out to a professor at a potential school and inquire about general expectations of incoming students (languages you're expected to have down before entering) vs. languages they're okay with you having some skill in by year 1-2.

[Karou]

Thank you both so much, I really appreciate your insights.

To be honest, I don't think my research would necessarily lead me to Germany (although who knows) but as I'm mainly interested in Western Europe there would definitely be some overlap and the language would be an asset for research at the very least, but I do think that a strong reading proficiency will be enough for entry into a PhD program. Time will tell how proficient exactly I need to be but it definitely can't hurt to get started, and it seems to be high on the list of required languages. Whatever happens, I figure that it's never a waste of time to try and pick up a new language!

I guess I should have specified my interests a little more, although they are a little hard to put into words at this point as I'm still trying to make everything work together. I had an original idea and then fell down the research rabbit hole, and you know how that goes! I'm more interested in a thematic approach rather than in a very specific geographic location (besides the "general" area of Western Europe), although I'm aware I may need to narrow it down. I'm mainly interested in the 16th and 17th century and want to look at gender history and intellectual history. At this point I'm trying to somehow link the history of prostitution, witchcraft prosecution, social control (especially over sexuality - I guess hearing about Foucault so much this semester kinda stuck!) and education in this time period. I'm doing a lot of research at the moment and there's a lot of overlap with all of these topics, I just need to find an angle and try and focus a little more, so far research is taking me to Britain and Italy most of all, although Germany remains incredibly relevant (especially if I pursue the witchcraft angle). The study of the occult and "high magic" among the bourgeoisie during the Renaissance (in Italy mostly) is particularly fascinating, especially in contrast to witchcraft prosecution in other parts of Europe. So I guess Italian is in the cards too, although, I know this is a cliché but I can attest to it from personal experience, Italian will be a lot easier to pick up because French is my mother tongue - and, like you pointed out xypathos, Latin should help tremendously as well.

TMP, no need to apologize, enthusiasm is great! Also it would be incredibly hypocritical of me to comment on this considering I just went on a full-blown rant about my very specific areas of interest.  I'd love to hear what you guys are working on if you're inclined to share!

Edit: oh also, not sure if that's relevant but I'm applying strictly to English-speaking programs, mainly in the UK, and one in Sweden. I know that the language training is a lot less rigorous at this point in the UK than it is in the US (that's what I hear, and judging by admission requirements it seems to be true), that's why I'm trying to get a head start in case I do head to the US for the PhD.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Karou

[lkjpoi]

It might be helpful for you to identify what kinds of sources you are interested in studying and to decide on the languages you need from there. Are the 16- and 17th-century texts on prostitution, witchcraft, etc. you're interested in written in Latin or the vernacular? The language requirements exist, at least essentially, to demonstrate your ability to execute the particular kind of research you want to do.

For the intellectual history of early modern Europe, Latin is typically crucial. I imagine beginning there might be best given the scope of your interest. But perhaps your focus on social history leads you more often to German and Italian language texts, so maybe those languages would be more useful to you. I agree with xypathos that it is a good idea to reach out to a professor with this question about how best to prepare yourself for your research interests.

[Karou]

Thank you for your reply, Ikjpoi!

My research at this point is "superficial" at best, I'm just trying to craft research proposals for Masters programs (most programs I'm applying to don't even require it but encourage you to do it - in other words I don't think I'm expected to produce something that's exceptionally precise, although it's important to me that I try and produce something coherent). What I mean by that is that I haven't, so far, compiled sources that I may want to consult that are in a language other than English or French. Please bear with me, I haven't been trained in historical research methods, although my BA is in a relevant field.  This is why I really want to do an MA even though I already have some graduate school experience (I am a rather nontraditional student and am hoping the MA in History will atone for my "sins", so to speak), I just don't feel like I'd be a competitive applicant for a PhD at this point. But I digress, as I do.

Through examining those texts in English and French, I can tell that I am most definitely gonna need both Latin and Italian at some point. But German is the language that has given me the most anxiety as I believe it will be the hardest one to learn. I really don't mean to diminish the process of learning Latin and Italian, I know this will be hard also, especially Latin, but because of my language background I know it won't be quite as hard. I also have quite a few ties to Italy in my personal life and I'm sure I can work out something and go spend a couple months in Italy or enlist a friend to tutor me in the next couple of years, once I'm back in Europe (I'm in North America until next summer, at the moment). Latin I can hopefully pick up through my MA, I know some schools even offer intensive classes. So that leaves German as the great big unknown, and now seems like a good time to start.

I'm also very aware that my research could change direction when I start my MA, and I just want to make sure I cover my bases. Just in case. The vast majority of PhD programs I've looked into highly recommend German for the time period, themes and geographic locations I'm interested in (French and Latin also, Italian not so much although it may be of use to me personally should I continue on this road). Honestly, I think that all 3 languages will be useful at some point or other and maybe I'm just overthinking this, but this has been a long time in the making and I want to do this right. But you're both right, maybe I should just email a professor and ask what they think about all of this.

Apologies for the long response, I'm really not quite as stressed as I appear to be. I just.. want to be as prepared as I can possibly be.  Thanks for the help guys!

Edited December 28, 2016 by Karou

[knp]

Am I a bit late? But: your (written) English is [redacted] phenomenal. You mentioned repeating the process by which you learned English with German. All I can say is that if your language learning process works even almost as well this time, you will be absolutely stone-cold fine.

I am a bit surprised by the Latin/German parallel, but after you made the point about your difficulties with grammar, I am inclined to think that they will both be about the same level of difficulty for you, given that they both have case systems and their gender systems are a bit more complicated than the one in French. Given those similarities, however, I would simultaneously whichever one you learn first will help you learn the other one more easily. 

I do second or third the idea that you should look at what kinds of sources you'd most like to read before you make the commitment to one or the other complete, though. Perhaps looking at the sources in the notes of your several favorite books or articles would be a good idea?

Edited January 2, 2017 by knp

[Karou]

knp you're not late at all, and thank you so much for your comments on my English, it's very kind of you to say. I've been working on my English for over ten years at this point, so I feel like it's not really quite that impressive! Although I would say I attained fluency quite a while ago, it's just that I view language learning as a work that is forever in progress. I actually have a vocabulary notebook in which I jot down definitions for new words I may come across throughout my readings because I'm a big nerd (a practice I took up when I was studying for the GRE and it turned out to be really helpful so I kept at it!).

But it turns out that down and down the research rabbit hole I went and it has become increasingly clear that Italian should be my priority at the moment (indeed, from sources cited in books/articles I've read as well as from my growing interest in Italy as a geographical area to focus on  ). Hopefully professors will shed some light on how proficient in German I need to be at this point in my academic career once I start my program next year (fingers crossed that I get in somewhere). I'm actually going to go check out a place tomorrow where they offer lessons, it's a branch of the Italian consulate so it should be perfectly respectable and the price is right!

And yes, that is exactly what my friend said, that German would help with Latin learning as far as case systems and gender systems. I will definitely be taking Latin as an elective during my Masters, and from discussions I've been having with various people in addition to the lovely people in this thread, I'm hoping that the Italian/Latin/German learning curve will turn out to be a sort of natural progression. I've also spoken with my mother since and it turns out she is even more amazing than I thought, and in addition to the many Italian ladies that populate my life, my mom also has a very close friend in Germany that would be more than happy to help out in any way she can. I'm very fortunate to have all of these opportunities and it would be a shame to not take advantage of them. Going away to learn new languages is what aspiring historians do in the summer right?  

[Sigaba]

@Karou while departments set the requirements and one's research interests establish priorities/needs, please keep in mind that professors often decide if a graduate student has satisfied a requirement. You can ace classes/programs and you can speak/read a language like a native...and the professor who you want to be your dissertation committee chair can set the bar in another place and at a different height than you expected.

So when you look at departments, your areas of interest, and your aptitude for learning some languages more efficiently than others, please also do research on the specific historians who might test your proficiency, up to calling their ABDs and asking point blank What was the language exam like? In these conversations, skirt around the assessments of the level of difficulty. Hard/easy have different meanings to different graduate students at different times. Instead, try to get a sense of how the exam was administered and evaluated.

HTH.

[Karou]

@Sigaba, thank you! That's a very interesting point and something I probably would not have thought of doing myself. I will definitely look into that in the next year or so when I start working on PhD applications!

Also, update: I had my first Italian class yesterday and so far so good. Excited to see what kind of progress I'll have made by the time the course ends in April!  

[YeshuaNgome]

You are definitely right in your supposition about languages after the second getting easier. Part of this could be if the languages are related but I think part of it is just knowing how you best learn and doing that. Your plan and goals sound totally doable. I'm a first year Africanist. All programs are different but in my own, I need an African and European language (only a reading test at the outset). I had taken Swahili previously and had worked on French for reading so was able to get both of those out of the way off the bat. I am actually continuing with both though because I am focused on the Congo and thus need both. French on my own and Swahili in a class (an advanced class so conversation and discussion rather than classroom learning). I added Lingala as well this semester so I am attempting to juggle the three with around 1 to 1.5 hours per day in each. Working so far! 

[Karou]

@YeshuaNgome, thank you for sharing your experience! I always love hearing what other people are working on, and what languages they know.

Italian classes are going very well so far, so I think that my plan may indeed work out. And one university that recently admitted me said they were fairly impressed that I had enrolled in Italian classes in preparation for future research, so I suppose it was indeed a good idea to get started early! I hope everything continues to work out for you (good job on juggling three languages by the way, that's pretty impressive!).

Edited February 2, 2017 by Karou