Decision: Fit over rank?

[Hartley]

20 minutes ago, Throw Away Acct said:

Should we be able to decipher much from the US News rankings? Are we saying that within the top 10, there are two tiers? 

 

I actually find the PhDs.org rankings much more reliable.  They are much more forthcoming about their data sets, and exclude certain methods of ranking which only continue to benefit the "top" programs.  http://www.phds.org/rankings/english

[Dr. Old Bill]

41 minutes ago, Hartley said:

I actually find the PhDs.org rankings much more reliable.  They are much more forthcoming about their data sets, and exclude certain methods of ranking which only continue to benefit the "top" programs.  http://www.phds.org/rankings/english

Unfortunately all of their sources are from anywhere between seven and fourteen years ago...

[claritus]

15 minutes ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Unfortunately all of their sources are from anywhere between seven and fourteen years ago...

Yes, and things really change in those years—we're talking financial crisis, job market collapse level change...

[KikiDelivery]

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2017-02-21/coming-soon-2018-best-graduate-schools-rankings

 

Apparently, the rankings will be updated on March 14th of this year. Do you foresee a lot of changes, and if so, would it be wise to wait until the new rankings are released to make a decision?

I have to say that I prioritized fit over ranking, but I am also open to finding jobs outside of the academy once I finish.

[echo449]

You should prioritize the placement record of the people that you conceive of yourself working with. If, say, you wanted to work with a poetics person with recent placements at a top 30 school vs a top 10 with no record of placements, then you should think carefully about your options. While most of the faculty members who have good placement records are at top 20 institutions, this is not true of every field. 

[Yanaka]

I was told by a Prof. (and close friend) at an American university: "go Ivy or you won't find a job." hahaha

However--being miserable does not make you richer, either.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Yanaka

[Throw Away Acct]

10 hours ago, echo449 said:

You should prioritize the placement record of the people that you conceive of yourself working with. If, say, you wanted to work with a poetics person with recent placements at a top 30 school vs a top 10 with no record of placements, then you should think carefully about your options. While most of the faculty members who have good placement records are at top 20 institutions, this is not true of every field. 

I've actually only found this information by chance, because i've followed the academic trajectory of some of my favorite scholars in order to see where they went and who the worked with. Only the top 10 school has placed multiple people in my field. Not the top 50. 

 

On the other hand, my top 30 programs have placed a few people in my area. However, when it comes down to it, won't my placement come down to my work and who I worked with?

[Throw Away Acct]

9 hours ago, Yanaka said:

I was told by a Prof. (and close friend) at an American university: "go Ivy or you won't find a job." hahaha

However--being miserable does not make you richer, either.

Neither school would make me miserable.  I tend to thrive wherever I am, so livability isn't the issue (it was a concern at first, but i'm over it).

 

I think that the only reason i'm questioning this is because I feel obligated to go to a place because of the collegiality of the people I have spoken with and the extent at which they attempted to recruit me. This season, i've heard adcoms say some of the nicest stuff about my work. It just feels overwhelming that i'll have to say no to one of these programs. At this point, I know where i'm going. It just feels weird? Ya' know? 

[Warelin]

10 hours ago, Yanaka said:

I was told by a Prof. (and close friend) at an American university: "go Ivy or you won't find a job." hahaha

However--being miserable does not make you richer, either.

I think that is quite possibly the worst advice I've ever seen a professor give. There are many schools with better placement rates than the Ivy league colleges.

[Dr. Old Bill]

57 minutes ago, Warelin said:

I think that is quite possibly the worst advice I've ever seen a professor give. There are many schools with better placement rates than the Ivy league colleges.

Yes -- and the comment also evokes the notion that the only jobs worth considering are TT positions at R1 institutions. There's more to the world of academia than ivory towers.

[Warelin]

1 minute ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Yes -- and the comment also evokes the notion that the only jobs worth considering are TT positions at R1 institutions. There's more to the world of academia than ivory towers.

And most people will get jobs that aren't at an R1 institution. Some of the small liberal arts colleges might even have biases against hiring an Ivy grad because they fear that they'll leave them as soon as a position at an R1 school opens up. There are indeed tons of great programs.

[Throw Away Acct]

1 hour ago, Warelin said:

I think that is quite possibly the worst advice I've ever seen a professor give. There are many schools with better placement rates than the Ivy league colleges.

 

18 minutes ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Yes -- and the comment also evokes the notion that the only jobs worth considering are TT positions at R1 institutions. There's more to the world of academia than ivory towers.

 

15 minutes ago, Warelin said:

And most people will get jobs that aren't at an R1 institution. Some of the small liberal arts colleges might even have biases against hiring an Ivy grad because they fear that they'll leave them as soon as a position at an R1 school opens up. There are indeed tons of great programs.

I wish I had more up votes for both of you. 

 

My goal is actually to work at a small LAC. I would prefer a private school (due to founding concerns), but I believe in the power of a LAC, and I want to give back to them one day. Fun fact: when I was applying to PhD programs, I looked at all the places I would love to work one day, and they were filled with people from Yale, Berkley, Chicago and Columbia on repeat (almost as if they keep hiring people from their alma mater over and over again. Also, a lot of prof's in the departments I looked at moved from R1s to LACs.

 

Anyways, my main question for this thread was answered. I'll be retiring this account haha. Thanks everyone! I wish I had more up votes for everyone  

[Yanaka]

4 hours ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Yes -- and the comment also evokes the notion that the only jobs worth considering are TT positions at R1 institutions. There's more to the world of academia than ivory towers.

Well since she's a long-time friend of my mom's, she was probably speaking from her experience at her university... she didn't mean any harm! 

[Glasperlenspieler]

4 hours ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Yes -- and the comment also evokes the notion that the only jobs worth considering are TT positions at R1 institutions. There's more to the world of academia than ivory towers.

 

4 hours ago, Warelin said:

And most people will get jobs that aren't at an R1 institution. Some of the small liberal arts colleges might even have biases against hiring an Ivy grad because they fear that they'll leave them as soon as a position at an R1 school opens up. There are indeed tons of great programs.

While I certainly think that "Ivies or bust" is oversimplified, I think there's (unfortunately) a grain of truth in it. 

Consider this post by telkanuru and the study cited in it:

This study is for history (as well as computer science and business), but it shows that in history, over 85% of ALL TT placements come from 25% of PhD granting institutions. I don't know of any similar studies for other fields in the humanities, but I'd wager to guess the results wouldn't be too far off. Now, it's important to note that the institutions that dominate the job market are NOT simply the Ivies (many non-Ivies actually perform as well or better and some Ivies may actually be on the borderline of this group in some fields) and that the institutions that do well don't necessarily map onto the top ranked programs according to USNews or NRC or whomever. Nonetheless, there does appear to be a fairly clear tier system in terms of placement and if you are outside of this top tier, your odds of obtaining a tenure track job are severely reduced (likely allowing for some variation according to specialty). I'm not trying to defend this system, but I think we ignore it at our own peril and not only if you're gunning for an R1 job. For what it's worth, this is pretty much the same advice I've heard from a number of professors (who are very happy with their non-R1 positions).

Edited March 1, 2017 by Glasperlenspieler

[Yanaka]

And I think I understand (from various posts here and from news articles) that the Humanities are receiving less and less funding, so I don't think her comment is to be dismissed so hastily! I might be wrong, however, since I have no other proof than impressions and a few articles  

[ExponentialDecay]

10 hours ago, Warelin said:

And most people will get jobs that aren't at an R1 institution. Some of the small liberal arts colleges might even have biases against hiring an Ivy grad because they fear that they'll leave them as soon as a position at an R1 school opens up. There are indeed tons of great programs.

Maybe they would have thought that 50 years ago, but today even community colleges are full of Harvard and Yale PhDs. I assure you, the small liberal arts colleges know full-well what a buyer's market the humanities job market is. They get 200 applications per position from people at T10 programs. They go to the MLA. They know words like "adjunctification" and "overproduction of PhDs". Who do you think is writing all those articles about how shitty academia has be come? Grad students? No, it's the professors, and most of them are at the unknown 4/4 LACs or the regional comprehensives. 

On the supply side, many if not most of the defending ABDs at top programs would be ecstatic to get a job at a shitty 4/4 LAC in rural Ohio that's trying to make ends meet between their nothing endowment and their 80% discounted tuition for a dwindling student base, because they realize that that's the only chance they have at staying in academia. Programs don't need to dig into the grads of Louisiana State Polytechnic for competent tenure lines, because for every applicant from Yale that makes them feel uneasy, they have 2 that are telling them that they've dreamed of working at an LAC all their lives, that they really believe in the school's mission, that they want to give back, that their wife is from rural Ohio and Bum Creek has the best tadpole fishing in the country, and they happen to be an NCAA All-American tadpole fisher....

That's all to say, people should do what they want, and few chances in life are mathematically 0, but goddamn I would feel irresponsible suggesting that a student go to a low-ranked PhD because they like the school, much less turn down a top PhD program for that reason.