Minnesota or CUNY? (PhD)

[hippityhop123]

My end goal is to teach at a top 40 university. 

Trying to weigh the pros/cons of attending: 

 

University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 

- I've had more contact with the faculty (plus one of my recommenders insists it's a better fit) 

- better funding package (with graduate assistantship + nominated for an award = possibly more funding) 

- higher ranked (#20 vs. #28 according to the USWNR)  --> can anyone speak to the validity of this claim? 

- houses an Immigration History Research Center and the Minnesota Population Center (two programs related to my research on financialization + immigration) 

- 94% teaching placement rate (2002-2016) 

 

CUNY

- potential for more robust networking (faculty, NYC/East Coast lecture circuit)

*flip side: expensive living costs 

- the Immigration Working Group, Sociology Colloquium Series are draws for me 

- 72% teaching placement rate (2005-09), although their site says the  "placement record has markedly improved in the last few years, and we expect that this trend will continue."

http://www.gc.cuny.edu/Page-Elements/Academics-Research-Centers-Initiatives/Doctoral-Programs/Sociology/Job-Placements 

 

Anyone have thoughts they would like to share or is facing a similar decision? 

I will be visiting both within the next 3 weeks. 

[THS]

They are both great schools and my advice is this.

Your ability to find a teaching position when you are out (at any school at all) will depend on the quality of work you do in the program you attend.  You'll be able to do better work if you go to school/live in a place you enjoy, where you can be happy.  You are about to make a 5ish year descision to live somewhere, since you have choices I'd make it about that.  Both are highly ranked/fantastic programs and both afford you an excellent step up when you finish your degree.  I'll add that money is important to consider too, so don't discount the award/stipend amount in your consideration (my MA only paid $980 a month and I didn't have time to get another job on top of teaching and school so I struggled for 2 years).  At either university it will be about what you can do with the opportunity, the placement rating doesn't guarantee anything (which it sounds like you are highly motivated/have a plan and are going to do fantastic so the small difference between the two shouldn't make a difference).  

Also...I always find it helpful to talk it out with friends/family/your partner.  This is a huge choice and I am sure many people will have different takes than I do.  

Best of luck and congrats!!!  

[hippityhop123]

@montanem thanks for the feedback. 

I'm still coming to terms with the fact that this is the next 5 years of my life *cue cognitive dissonance* 

I think I will be content living in either city (finished my MA at NYU + grew up in the Midwest), and I've only heard good things about Minneapolis. 

And I 100% agree with what you said about the rankings vs. quality of work and publications.

They are ranked closely enough that I don't think of UMN as necessarily 'better' than CUNY (the difference is quite negligible), even though UMN squeezes into the top 20 for hiring departments (or at least according to this Cornell Pipeline Report): 

https://blogs.cornell.edu/facultydevelopment/files/2016/01/Sociology-Pipeline-Report-1jh8i9h.pdf 

Living in NYC is an intangible plus for establishing relationships with other departments (SUNY, NYU, Columbia, Brown, etc) but I would anticipate the potential for decent 'networking' (God I hate that word but realize it's indispensable in academia) at most conferences, workshops, and seminars I would attend anyways. 

UMN has a ton of research centers that complement what I want to do, so I'm leaning towards it more & more.

https://cla.umn.edu/sociology/research/research-centers 

At this point I'm hoping my visits will fill in the blanks & push me over the fence for one over the other. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldacct]

I would go to both programs visitation weekends. You may find that mentors' and cohort members' personalities can sway your decision if you view the programs as largely comparable. Also, I would agree with montanem. If there are not substantial differences between the programs, go with the one you have a gut feeling for. Climates, proximity to family, etc may sway your decision too. And I think that's valid as long as the programs are similar in quality. If you don't think they offer the same education within your subfield, maybe go with the stronger one. Lastly, look at where they're placing their students. Are they desirable places to live?

[Calliandra]

I am currently facing the same conundrum. I was definitely more inclined to go to Minnesota. However, my husband was recently accepted to a PhD program in Columbia, so I will probably be going to CUNY.

[hippityhop123]

@Calliandra What are your research interests? They're both good fits for what I want to study (financialization, immigration, remiittances, cryptocurrencies), perhaps UM having a bit of an upper hand 

Edited February 28, 2017 by hippityhop123

[THS]

7 hours ago, Calliandra said:

I am currently facing the same conundrum. I was definitely more inclined to go to Minnesota. However, my husband was recently accepted to a PhD program in Columbia, so I will probably be going to CUNY.

 

 

I would go to the program closer to him, my aunt and uncle tried to do their PHDs only a few hours apart/in the same state and my uncle ended up switching programs which cost him a year.  It wasn't that distance was hard, it was that grad school is hard enough w/o trying to do distance (that's what he's always told me, anyways).  They did some distance at the end when she did her post doc, but that was only for a year before he found a tenure track job at her school.  I figure if the guy who teaching family/couples counseling in psych has that advice then its probably worth sharing best of luck!   -edit to add that because my family is nuts he also keeps telling me to wait to settle down until after I start a PHD program because of this experience.  So the story is a story, not the end all be all answer, because, my family isn't made up of balanced people.  I am sure you could make it work if you wanted to.

Edited February 28, 2017 by montanem

[viewsonic]

@hippityhop123 @Calliandra Also in the same boat as you two! Good to know I'm not alone, and your previous posts have been very helpful - thanks.

 

For me, it's not only a question of money but also (relatedly) where I can better manage my time. For example, how much do teaching/research responsibilities take away from writing commitments at each program, especially during or after the fifth year? How does one navigate grad student commitments in a large city like New York compared to a much smaller Minneapolis?

 

Completing a PhD on schedule in New York sounds daunting and perhaps even maddening, coming from someone who has also lived here the past few years. Additionally there's the mysterious writing across curriculum program at CUNY that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I believe you're placed in a writing center, but with more conceptual/capacity-building type work. I've heard it varies how much work there is, depending on where you end up. This could be difficult, since it'd be ideal to have minimal limitations for travel research, etc. If I'm in New York, minimizing my workload and commute in the last year(s) to finish writing would be key. Networking at CUNY, most likely through the consortium, does come off as a positive but I too am unclear about their placement trend.

 

More generally, it sounds like GC fellows get the better deal in terms of assignments while UMN asks their students to teach right away, though if this is false please correct me. Having spoken with some current CUNY Soc PhDs, in years 2/3/4 many teach their own course instead of TAing, which is a lot of work but not necessarily bad if you get to design your own syllabus. (It's a lottery as to where you get assigned, although you do get to rank your choices.)

[hippityhop123]

@viewsonic You bring up an important point about time and distractions. I've been thinking about that more & more as the decision looms closer. 

I haven't talked to anyone yet about the curriculum program at CUNY you mentioned, something I'll have to do when I visit. Same goes for the teaching requirements...

 

 

[Calliandra]

@hippityhop123 I study social stratification and economic inequality, so both are good fits. Maybe CUNY would be slightly better for me, given that they have the stone center on economic inequality. However, I was a bit worried about my job prospects given the ranking position of both universities. From what I have been able to assess so far, as imperfect as these ranks can be, they do matter a great deal down the road. 

@montanem thank you so much for sharing this story.   My husband and I applied to a lot of universities in order to maximize our chances of living together. Given that we were lucky enough to get accepted to great universities in the same city, I don't think it would be worth the stress of trying long distance just because UMN could maybe offer slightly better job prospects in the future. As you said, grad school is already very stressful on it’s own. However, my husband is waitlisted at UMN, and given that Columbia and UMN are very closely ranked in his field, it is still possible that we could go there. 

@viewsonic what do you mean by this “mysterious writing across curriculum program at CUNY”? I’ve never even heard of this.
 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Calliandra

[viewsonic]

19 minutes ago, Calliandra said:

. @viewsonic what do you mean by this “mysterious writing across curriculum program at CUNY”? I’ve never even heard of this.
 

Ah sorry I should have been more clear. For those receiving a GC fellowship in their funding offer, I was told that one serves as a Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) Fellow in their fifth year, "or in a similar assignment" (not sure what that means) at a CUNY college. CUNY's website describes WAC as a program that trains CUNY doctoral students "to support efforts to improve writing at the campuses." What I'd like to know is if this is something we would do in addition to teaching as an adjunct, writing, etc. They mentioned that it's 15 hours/week.

[applicant2016]

On 2/28/2017 at 4:57 PM, viewsonic said:

Ah sorry I should have been more clear. For those receiving a GC fellowship in their funding offer, I was told that one serves as a Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) Fellow in their fifth year, "or in a similar assignment" (not sure what that means) at a CUNY college. CUNY's website describes WAC as a program that trains CUNY doctoral students "to support efforts to improve writing at the campuses." What I'd like to know is if this is something we would do in addition to teaching as an adjunct, writing, etc. They mentioned that it's 15 hours/week.

Yes, in short CUNY's top-notch, full-funding (Grad Center Fellowship) is abysmally low ( 26k/year stipend for the first 5 years, which not all students receive) considering the extremely high cost of living in NYC. https://www.gc.cuny.edu/CUNY_GC/media/CUNY-Graduate-Center/PDF/Financial Aid/FIN-AID-Dec-16-REV-GC_Fellowship_Funding_5-Yr_Breakdown.pdf?ext=.pdf

The teaching requirement is also demanding: Second year Sociology PhDs are required to teach their own courses and can be placed at any of the CUNY schools. This means that some students end up in extremely inconvenient locations, scattered across the 5 boroughs, and these assignments sometimes require extensive commutes. Most students already have extremely long commutes given that the Graduate Center is located in the heart of Midtown and very few students have the resources to live anywhere near it. (The graduate student housing itself is located in East Harlem—a 30 minute subway ride in optimal conditions).

In addition to the teaching requirement, many students elect to adjunct courses to fill gaps in living costs. 

By the fifth year, students should be ABD, but in order to keep their fellowships, they must serve as WAC fellows. This presents a huge dilemma for students whose fieldwork is outside of NYC and even for those whose fieldwork is anywhere near the city. That is, spending time critiquing undergrads' papers in the library, however noble, takes students away from their own dissertation work. 

Points to keep in mind. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by applicant2016

[Calliandra]

@hippityhop123 and @viewsonic 

 Did you get to go to CUNY's and UM's visit days? 

I wasn't able to go, but would love to hear your thoughts and impressions, especially now that UM is up three positions in the US News rank.