Brand name school matters

[katalytik]

Another issue that has nothing to do with prestige OR access that I don't believe I've seen on this board yet is how coming from a "Brand name" school affects your mentality. If everyone around you acts like you're a special snowflake and can only succeed, it encourages you to take greater risks and be more confident in your work/research. In my brief semester of psychology, I read something about a case study where elementary school students who were treated as "failures" tended to produce poor work, but if teachers changed their attitudes and acted as if the student was perfectly bright and capable, the student would respond to this with significant improvement.

Another good point about "positive peer pressure". You guys are overall giving me good advice about how to deal with the grad school decision.

[juror#1]

I don't think digits was trying to say that the actual Brand name matters in terms of prestige--I agree that it is a matter of access. Anecdotally, I know plenty of people with shiny top 10 school degrees that fall flat during the graduate school process and students from less ranked schools that go to Ivies. They all work hard, but some have to work harder. If we equate "Brand name" with more funding, resources, opportunities,etc and if we take two equally determined, hard working students, the one from the "Brand name" school may just have more opportunities and an easier time finding funding for his/her research. I went to one of those special snowflake schools and sought to use all the resources I could. A student of equal potential in a non-special snowflake school may not have the same access to the money I had for research and conferences.

Another issue that has nothing to do with prestige OR access that I don't believe I've seen on this board yet is how coming from a "Brand name" school affects your mentality. If everyone around you acts like you're a special snowflake and can only succeed, it encourages you to take greater risks and be more confident in your work/research. In my brief semester of psychology, I read something about a case study where elementary school students who were treated as "failures" tended to produce poor work, but if teachers changed their attitudes and acted as if the student was perfectly bright and capable, the student would respond to this with significant improvement.

Oh I agree that the main argument was about access to opportunities . But you have to admit that with the opportunities comes the facade of prestige. It goes along with your second discussion concerning mentality and in a way the self-fulfilling prophecy of how you are treated as that "snowflake." It is all tied together and the joy of it is trying to separate the individual parts .

[kismetcapitan]

I will admit that applying to Harvard was in some part based on name value. My overall intent for my grad studies is to help me really launch my private/alternative school that I founded into the limelight (hopefully) or at least grow into an institution that will outlive me.

Since the school is in South Korea (although 100% taught in English - has to be, I don't speak Korean well enough to teach kindergarten ), I had to factor in that Koreans absolutely worship Harvard as the end-all be-all of universities. When I try to expand my campus, I will have to lobby the government, or private donors, and simply put, I won't get in the door without HARVARD stuck on my resume. Stanford? Columbia? Just as good if not better academically (in terms of schools of education), but they literally carry half the weight that Harvard does in this society.

That being said, if Harvard didn't have the program and fit for my educational goals, I would not have applied. I don't believe in attending a big-name school simply to collect a trophy; it's an insult to the school, a mockery of the true intent of education and being educated, and a disingenuous method to get ahead in society.

[Piwi]

I applied to and was accepted to a name brand school (Harvard). However, the program is slightly different than the type of program I was hoping for (biostat vs stat). For me, the actual program is what's most important: if a (non-name brand) school has a program I am more interested in, I see no problem turning down name-brand school for this other program.

However, with the exception of my SO, EVERYONE I have talked to has said "You got into Harvard! Why would you even bother with interviews/considering other places??!?!?!" I try to calmly explain, "The program isn't exactly what I'm looking for, and so at this point I'm still considering other options."

To this people will often:

(1) give me a blank stare

(2) (give me a look that seems to) say "You're just trying to get as many acceptances as possible so that you can brag! You're wasting other schools' time and effort, and you're stealing other people's funding by not withdrawing other apps!"

(3) say "Do you realize how crazy that sounds?! You would reject Harvard for Non-Name Brand School?!"

I can understand where people are coming from, and I have been seriously thinking about whether (which schools/when) to withdraw apps from other places. However, it is very frustrating that everyone around me is more concerned with the Brand than they are with me finding a program with a good fit.

(Sorry if this seems like a rant - it's really been getting on my nerves lately.)

[Lousy Test taker]

"Pedigree" definitely maters from what I have seen. My boss, at my Masters' school, has her BS from MIT and PhD from Harvard.This one time, one of the proposal reviews from the NIH said " impressive pedigree" referring to her educational background and my boss had a laugh about it saying they have reduced her to a mutt's life!!!

P.S: She got the grant!!!

Edited February 23, 2010 by Lousy Test taker

[BonAppetit]

I feel like I am still struggling with this question! After two years spend considering, and researching, master's programs, I decided that USC and Syracuse were my top choices, because I'm interested in the area of public diplomacy and those two schools are the only ones who have degree programs specifically in that field. Yet when I told my friends and coworkers this, they kept asking things like, "What about Georgetown?" or "What about SAIS?" or "Where is Syracuse?"

I started to feel inferior! Also, I've seen, from my friends, the dividends of the brand-names -- it seems like they get the best shots at jobs, the best shots at prestigious grad programs.... But I keep thinking, what's the point in applying to a great famous school if I can't focus on what I'm *really* interested in? Is it worth it? I decided it wasn't, so I didn't apply to any "brand-name" schools. I'll cross my fingers and hope that it was the right decision, but I guess I won't find out for a few more years

[katalytik]

"Pedigree" definitely maters from what I have seen. My boss, at my Masters' school, has her BS from MIT and PhD from Harvard.This one time, one of the proposal reviews from the NIH said " impressive pedigree" referring to her educational background and my boss had a laugh about it saying they have reduced her to a mutt's life!!!

P.S: She got the grant!!!

You know this is exactly the type of example I am talking about. Ultimately, we all have to apply for grants and having top names count.

[Lousy Test taker]

You know this is exactly the type of example I am talking about. Ultimately, we all have to apply for grants and having top names count.

At the end of the day, no one seems to care what research you have done unless of course if its ground-breaking shit! The names of the institutions on the Bio count and a quick look of the profile is not gonna give you a whole heck of a detail about the person's caliber but if one has that elitist tag in there it sure helps one go places.

[urbanchic]

I applied to and was accepted to a name brand school (Harvard). However, the program is slightly different than the type of program I was hoping for (biostat vs stat). For me, the actual program is what's most important: if a (non-name brand) school has a program I am more interested in, I see no problem turning down name-brand school for this other program.

However, with the exception of my SO, EVERYONE I have talked to has said "You got into Harvard! Why would you even bother with interviews/considering other places??!?!?!" I try to calmly explain, "The program isn't exactly what I'm looking for, and so at this point I'm still considering other options."

To this people will often:

(1) give me a blank stare

(2) (give me a look that seems to) say "You're just trying to get as many acceptances as possible so that you can brag! You're wasting other schools' time and effort, and you're stealing other people's funding by not withdrawing other apps!"

(3) say "Do you realize how crazy that sounds?! You would reject Harvard for Non-Name Brand School?!"

I can understand where people are coming from, and I have been seriously thinking about whether (which schools/when) to withdraw apps from other places. However, it is very frustrating that everyone around me is more concerned with the Brand than they are with me finding a program with a good fit.

(Sorry if this seems like a rant - it's really been getting on my nerves lately.)

Just wondering, why did you apply to Harvard if you knew it wasn't a good fit/what you were looking for?

[Rachel C]

I applied to and was accepted to a name brand school (Harvard). However, the program is slightly different than the type of program I was hoping for (biostat vs stat). For me, the actual program is what's most important: if a (non-name brand) school has a program I am more interested in, I see no problem turning down name-brand school for this other program.

However, with the exception of my SO, EVERYONE I have talked to has said "You got into Harvard! Why would you even bother with interviews/considering other places??!?!?!" I try to calmly explain, "The program isn't exactly what I'm looking for, and so at this point I'm still considering other options."

To this people will often:

(1) give me a blank stare

(2) (give me a look that seems to) say "You're just trying to get as many acceptances as possible so that you can brag! You're wasting other schools' time and effort, and you're stealing other people's funding by not withdrawing other apps!"

(3) say "Do you realize how crazy that sounds?! You would reject Harvard for Non-Name Brand School?!"

I can understand where people are coming from, and I have been seriously thinking about whether (which schools/when) to withdraw apps from other places. However, it is very frustrating that everyone around me is more concerned with the Brand than they are with me finding a program with a good fit.

(Sorry if this seems like a rant - it's really been getting on my nerves lately.)

Hah, I love that you're not starstruck by Harvard. I actually considered applying undergrad and hated it! I also visited Penn, LOVED IT, and it was definitely a better undergrad fit for me than Harvard would have been. Although there is something to be said about people's eyes glazing over when I say I went to Penn and asking, 'which campus?'

I actually had a friend from Harvard undergrad, and she was constantly embarrassed to tell people she went there and regretted not accepting Berkley's offer. It just wasn't a good fit.

So don't feel crazy. You're completely right to focus on the program and not the name- within your field people will care more about what you made of the program than about where it was.

[strokeofmidnight]

I don't know how it works in other fields, but it seems that in English, if it's a top-fifty school, they have decent-to-very good tenure track / postdoc placement. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a brand name. I found another perfect prof in Idaho State (and I never thought about Idaho State in my life).

I'm curious what you would consider to be "decent-to-very-good tenure track/postdoc placement?" (admittedly, these sorts of things are highly subjective, since people have different goals). Between my partner's 3 rounds and my own, I think we've fairly thoroughly researched the bulk (maybe 25-30?) of the top 50 schools. Between the two of us, we were admitted into roughly 15 of those schools (ranging from several top 5 schools to some in the 40's), and had access to the fine details of their recent placements. While there are programs on the latter part of that list with very strong placement rates, I find that on the whole "good placement" tends to drop off sharply--absymally--after the top 20 or 25 (though there are programs within that range that don't place well). At some of the "top 50" programs, if one goes through the fine print carefully, it looks as though only one or two students find tenure-track jobs a year. Granted, these last few years have been especially difficult for everyone across the board, but I still think that there are sharp disparities in placement rates among the top 50. (Though again, I would need to qualify that generalization by pointing out that placement is as much the product of the student's motivations and desires as the program's preparation).

In any case, this is just to say: be careful...but considering how carefully you've approached this reapplication process, I don't think you need this caevat

Edited March 16, 2010 by strokeofmidnight

[martizzle]

brand name for me is everything. If I get accepted to do a PhD at a lesser known school and a Masters at an ivy-league/big-name school...I will take the ivy league. I graduated from a smaller known school and I'm trying to work in the big leagues. ivy league is the 'safest' way to get where i need to go

@ those who 'hate havard: count me in! I detest that school (its the only big-name school i dislike but it does have some great programs...not that i know any, but im just assuming that its programs must be nice, after all its a big-name school right?

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

On 3/15/2010 at 9:03 PM, strokeofmidnight said:

I'm curious what you would consider to be "decent-to-very-good tenure track/postdoc placement?" (admittedly, these sorts of things are highly subjective, since people have different goals). Between my partner's 3 rounds and my own, I think we've fairly thoroughly researched the bulk (maybe 25-30?) of the top 50 schools. Between the two of us, we were admitted into roughly 15 of those schools (ranging from several top 5 schools to some in the 40's), and had access to the fine details of their recent placements. While there are programs on the latter part of that list with very strong placement rates, I find that on the whole "good placement" tends to drop off sharply--absymally--after the top 20 or 25 (though there are programs within that range that don't place well). At some of the "top 50" programs, if one goes through the fine print carefully, it looks as though only one or two students find tenure-track jobs a year. Granted, these last few years have been especially difficult for everyone across the board, but I still think that there are sharp disparities in placement rates among the top 50. (Though again, I would need to qualify that generalization by pointing out that placement is as much the product of the student's motivations and desires as the program's preparation).

In any case, this is just to say: be careful...but considering how carefully you've approached this reapplication process, I don't think you need this caevat

Oh yeah, I'm being much more careful this time around. I'm also hoping against hope that where ever I end up, I do excellent work and will be able to find a job. I'm so passionate about my field that I'm pretty sure I can find a decent job with my own personal drive and motivation. However, a prestige factor can't hurt, will probably help, and a program dedicated to placing their docs in TT positions is always a good thing.

Yes, there are up and downs even within the top 50. However, I've seen some programs ranked in the 30-50 range with relatively amazing placement rates (WashU, for example), as well as less successful ones in the 10's. It's a bit of a seesaw, very odd, and very unpredictable. I'm pretty sure I'll end up applying to 10-12 PhD programs, and 3 funded / scholarship MA's (Georgetown is on that list...). My long list (consisting of about 25 schools) all has decent placement rates. Maybe it's the correlation with strong medieval programs, I dunno. Maybe because I'm so not interested in most modern and "hip" studies. But placement is important enough to me that programs such as SMU are probably not going to make it for the app round next year, despite the possibility of working with Bonnie Wheeler - it's so new that I'm a bit scared off regarding the job options afterward.

However, I'm really really hoping to get into either Harvard or UCLA at this point (yay Welsh Literature and Language secondary field!), so if everything works out well, I won't have to worry TOO much about post-doc placement (yah, I'm an optimistic chickie, aren't I?). Obviously, for the right program, I'll even brave LA and all the beautiful plastic people. Or the snotties in Harvard (Boston is my hometown, so that's all good...).

[oldlady]

Pedigrees open doors, but people walk into rooms (grasshopper).

[washndry]

I think within your field, who you work with and what you've done matters most. Outside your field, brand names open doors, mainly because people won't have the same appreciation for your whos and whats.

[Think_Positive]

I'm looking at Public Health schools and am currently in Masters classes with a lot of Health Policy students - so here's my two cents.

I agree with a lot of the other posters here - it's not specifically the brand name that matters. What matters the most is having a good network of professors and staff who are working in a specialty that you are interested in, having access to every resource you could possibly need, and local resources or connections for future post doc and employment work are also a plus....

That being said, most of the "brand name" schools will likely have 2 out of 3 of those criteria off the bat. However, I think the one they might not have is the most important - research/opportunities that interest you. The way I narrowed down my application list was to go through almost every school in a geographic radius that I was comfortable with, and looked through every professors bio, and all current research projects. That was the only criteria I used to come down to a list of four schools (Note that at least two of them certainly are Brand Name). Being familiar with the details of research for each program will also help you write a stronger and more relative SOP for applications, and be more well versed if you are an invited to interviews. So many people apply to the elite brand name schools, I think they are more likely to pick people who's research compliments their current projects than those who are just applying for the "pedigree"

[alexis]

I've accepted an offer to a non-brand-name school for my PhD, and I couldn't be happier. This is coming from a person who went to a highly ranked/well-known undergrad, and still feels proud of the name (as silly as that is).

I agree with others who say there are more important things to consider than going to a top-ranked program (depending on your field, I know humanities is a bit different in that way). You have to figure out what's going to make you happy for the next 5 years, where you'll have a good fit and do productive research, what kind of faculty connections you can make, what your career goals are, then match that to the programs. Many of these things do not necessarily correlate to top-ranked programs.

[P.S. I second what others have said about Harvard. I know a couple people who went there and were absolutely miserable. Not everyone, of course; but I was glad when my cousin turned down an offer from there for undergrad and went to Michigan instead, she knew what she was doing. It's funny how we let a name carry so much value.]