marginalized/excluded in seminar?

[TheSunnyMan]

Has anyone ever felt marginalized in a seminar? I'm a minority student in a top PhD program that is pretty traditional (i.e., liberal arts discipline) and there aren't many minority students. For one of my seminars, I can't help but feel like the professor excludes, consciously or not, me in discussions. This person tends to ignore my comments, rarely calls on me but does have a tendency to call on other people during discussions. I'm decently intelligent, observant, hard-working, etc, and I rarely play the race card, but why am I feeling this way? Please don't trivalize my feelings as my being overly sensitive. I'm not suggesting her behavior is all racially-charged, but I've never felt this excluded or not valuable as a contributor in a classroom, particularly in a grad seminar setting before. Bascially, I feel pretty shitty/incompetent because she doesn't acknowledge me, am intimdated by her, and I don't think I'm completely paranoid. I mean, there has to be a reason in the way she acts towards me that's making me feel this way. She just seems to give more attention or encouragement to other students and I feel really left out. Thanks guys. Again, please give me constructive advice/insights and not purely reduce my feeling to insecurity or something.

Edited February 4, 2010 by TheSunnyMan

[fuzzylogician]

I can only offer practical advice: consult with other grad students in your department. Talk to other minority students in the department, or advisees of this professor, or anyone else you trust; have a chat with them and ask what they think about the professor. If she is discriminating against minorities, consciously or unconsciously, she will have done it before and someone will have noticed. If everyone thinks she treats all her students equally, then maybe she has an issue with you specifically, for some reason. Or maybe she just has a way of making some students uncomfortable, but isn't even aware of it. Whatever the issue is, other students should be able to tell you if this has happened before and how you should handle it - if she's approachable and you can just tell her how you feel, or if she is doing it deliberately, or who you could talk to (on the faculty) about this.

Edited February 4, 2010 by fuzzylogician

[engines10]

Has anyone ever felt marginalized in a seminar? I'm a minority student in a top PhD program that is pretty traditional (i.e., liberal arts discipline) and there aren't many minority students. For one of my seminars, I can't help but feel like the professor excludes, consciously or not, me in discussions. This person tends to ignore my comments, rarely calls on me but does have a tendency to call on other people during discussions. I'm decently intelligent, observant, hard-working, etc, and I rarely play the race card, but why am I feeling this way? Please don't trivalize my feelings as my being overly sensitive. I'm not suggesting her behavior is all racially-charged, but I've never felt this excluded or not valuable as a contributor in a classroom, particularly in a grad seminar setting before. Bascially, I feel pretty shitty/incompetent because she doesn't acknowledge me, am intimdated by her, and I don't think I'm completely paranoid. I mean, there has to be a reason in the way she acts towards me that's making me feel this way. She just seems to give more attention or encouragement to other students and I feel really left out. Thanks guys. Again, please give me constructive advice/insights and not purely reduce my feeling to insecurity or something.

hi sunnyman,

my gf was telling me about this post. I'm a black guy in an ivy engineering program. in my phd program i haven't had problems with race so far. i am pretty good with my stuff and did serious research even as an undergrad. i love my stuff so when i work with people they quickly realize they can't put me in any silly box. the former dean of the Yale law school(Asian) once said that his father told him that numbers don't lie so he should study the sciences and math because math has a universal language: numbers. i think there's a lot of room for people to disrespect you in the liberal arts because the arts is so subjective and it's hard to prove people wrong. but you should feel vindicated because it seems u've come far already.

having said that, as an undergrad i took a film class which was divided into groups. i worked with two white students. it hurt me greatly to realize how they ignored me and everything i had to say. people don't respect you if they don't engage you in a serious way. those two kids didn't respect me, never mind that they were always late and never thought about our group work ahead of time. they created a group of two and decided to do the project and give me the introduction part of the presentation(the part that goes to lazy and dumb kids if you've noticed). I'm shy and quiet and a little nerdy so i put up with them but i was hurt and it really pained me that they assumed that i was dumb. i have had similar experiences with kids who don't know me because they're not in my program. but i'm sure people of all races behave in weird ways when they are in a group. group dynamics is very complex in general. race just becomes another factor along with other parameters.

my advice to you:

a. success and hard work eventually pays off. don't suck on your thumb because one prof. doesn't like you. for all you know it has nothing to do with race. i've had professors who i thought didn't like me only to realize that they were rude to white students too. some profs. are just like a good chunk of humanity: socially awkward.

b. go to office hours. show that u love his/her class. after a while she'll know ur name and she'll find herself calling you. hopefully.

c. talk to other kids in your class about your observation and ask them to refer to you during discussions or something.

d. sometimes an awkward person is just an awkward person, not a racially biased person. sometimes you just need to go to the mall or movies and get into some vanities to give you perspective. the president is now black and he clearly doesn't care if people judge him on his race or not. pretend that race is never the issue. it helps to think outside your comfort zone even when your heart tells you u might be right.

e. if all fails, consider becoming an engineer or athlete. the numbers don't lie.

Edited February 4, 2010 by engines10

[TheSunnyMan]

"think outside your comfort zone even when your heart tells you u might be right."

Nicely said. I do trust my gut instinct that this professor likes to play class politics to get under everyone's skin, but the fact that I'm the only minority student does make me extra sensitive to her subtle triangulating between students. But I guess I need to combat covert bias, whether it exists or not in this particular case, because racism still persists in academia. Thanks guys.

[rev IT]

"think outside your comfort zone even when your heart tells you u might be right."

Nicely said. I do trust my gut instinct that this professor likes to play class politics to get under everyone's skin, but the fact that I'm the only minority student does make me extra sensitive to her subtle triangulating between students. But I guess I need to combat covert bias, whether it exists or not in this particular case, because racism still persists in academia. Thanks guys.

i agree that you should probably talk to other kids in your program to get a reality check.

[TheSunnyMan]

i agree that you should probably talk to other kids in your program to get a reality check.

Reality check of what? Of departmental politics that permeates classroom competition? Favoritism? Academic elitism and discrimination? I think I'm being pretty clear that I'm remaining optimistic and open-minded about my situation and not simply resorting to race, regardless of my personal feelings of alienation in a discipline dominated by non-minorities.

[rising_star]

I can only offer practical advice: consult with other grad students in your department. Talk to other minority students in the department, or advisees of this professor, or anyone else you trust; have a chat with them and ask what they think about the professor. If she is discriminating against minorities, consciously or unconsciously, she will have done it before and someone will have noticed.

This is one of the few times I"m going to disagree with fuzzy. Depending on your discipline and department, there may not be any other minority graduate students with which to consult about the professor. And, if your discipline is like mine, your graduate program probably hasn't seen a minority student in 5-7 years, so there might not be any record of how the professor acts towards minorities...

While I think that it's a good idea to talk to someone, I would talk to a trusted faculty member and frame it as you're looking for ideas of how to be better included in class discussions or tips for how to more effectively participate.

[fuzzylogician]

This is one of the few times I"m going to disagree with fuzzy. Depending on your discipline and department, there may not be any other minority graduate students with which to consult about the professor. And, if your discipline is like mine, your graduate program probably hasn't seen a minority student in 5-7 years, so there might not be any record of how the professor acts towards minorities...

While I think that it's a good idea to talk to someone, I would talk to a trusted faculty member and frame it as you're looking for ideas of how to be better included in class discussions or tips for how to more effectively participate.

You're making wildly different assumption about the student body at the OP's department than I am. You could very well be right, and in that case other students probably can't be very helpful. However, I would think that in a "political" department like the one you are assuming, it could cause a student harm to complain about one faculty member to another without first being very aware of the balance of power in the department. That's why I still think that if other students are approachable, they are a good source of information.

Edited February 4, 2010 by fuzzylogician

[TheSunnyMan]

This is one of the few times I"m going to disagree with fuzzy. Depending on your discipline and department, there may not be any other minority graduate students with which to consult about the professor. And, if your discipline is like mine, your graduate program probably hasn't seen a minority student in 5-7 years, so there might not be any record of how the professor acts towards minorities...

While I think that it's a good idea to talk to someone, I would talk to a trusted faculty member and frame it as you're looking for ideas of how to be better included in class discussions or tips for how to more effectively participate.

Absolutely I agree. If I talk to other grad students, and not to be wholly cynical, I might get responses like "get a reality check" or some other forms of racially insensitive remarks of my observations. Besides, like I wrote earlier, since departmental politics runs deep in my program, I'm not sure I trust anyone yet to disclose such personal issue to my peers, being that this is my first year of grad school and all. Tho I'm hesitant towards talking to an entrusted professor, too. No need to burn any bridges this early into my program. Besides, everything I've described so far is subjective, hardly anything I can write a bias report on, so playing it safe and staying low might be the best option. Such is life.

Edited February 4, 2010 by TheSunnyMan

[eikko]

Hey TheSunnyMan,

I'm sorry your professor isn't doing a good job of including everyone in the discussion, that sounds pretty stressful. I've had professors with whom I disagreed on pretty much everything, and it was really hard to know whether to disagree and defend my opinions or to drop it. If you usually don't feel this way in seminars then you are probably not being paranoid about the fact that you are being treated differently by the professor. It's impossible (at least from my perspective) to know if the professor has personal or racial or some other motive to her behavior. What if you try talking to her directly, like someone said, at her office hours-- not about how she freezes you out, because it won't get you anywhere-- but about the topics of the class. Just try to get to know her better. Maybe think of a question from readings or something you wanted to talk about more from a discussion. My thinking is that once you both know each other a bit better, it will be harder for her to ignore you in seminars. Just a thought... hope it helps!

[rev IT]

Reality check of what? Of departmental politics that permeates classroom competition? Favoritism? Academic elitism and discrimination? I think I'm being pretty clear that I'm remaining optimistic and open-minded about my situation and not simply resorting to race, regardless of my personal feelings of alienation in a discipline dominated by non-minorities.

oh come on. i didn't mean that you are jumping to play the race card. u misunderstand me. i know how race plays out in the US. i simply wanted to say that sometimes it helps to talk to others because u might feel increasingly alienated and in the end you'll be the biggest loser in the dept. if you keep your problem to yourself. i just think you should get ur classmates to become invested in your problem.

anyway, i can sense that u're hurt about stuff and i'm deeply sorry that you feel that way. in america there are stereotypes but smart people like you are breaking them down everyday. please don't give up.

also i agree with previous post that u should go to office hours. just bombard her with questions and show interest in her class and get her to learn ur name. that might solve the whole problem.

[rising_star]

You're making wildly different assumption about the student body at the OP's department than I am. You could very well be right, and in that case other students probably can't be very helpful. However, I would think that in a "political" department like the one you are assuming, it could cause a student harm to complain about one faculty member to another without first being very aware of the balance of power in the department. That's why I still think that if other students are approachable, they are a good source of information.

I can tell you what my assumptions are based on, if that helps:

I'm a minority student in a top PhD program that is pretty traditional (i.e., liberal arts discipline) and there aren't many minority students.

That sentence suggested to me that not only are there not many minority students in the department, but also that there haven't been many in the past (which is typically the case in programs where there are few currently).

My suggestion was to talk to one's advisor, who presumably you have a close relationship with, and ask him/her about the situation without directly mentioning race. That's why I framed it as asking about how to be more involved in seminar discussions. FWIW, if the situation is awkward for TheSunnyMan, the prof in question may have already mentioned it to his/her advisor. I know I get updated on my class performance from my advisor each semester, in addition to the feedback I get from the professors actually teaching the courses I'm taking.

[TheSunnyMan]

I can tell you what my assumptions are based on, if that helps:

That sentence suggested to me that not only are there not many minority students in the department, but also that there haven't been many in the past (which is typically the case in programs where there are few currently).

My suggestion was to talk to one's advisor, who presumably you have a close relationship with, and ask him/her about the situation without directly mentioning race. That's why I framed it as asking about how to be more involved in seminar discussions. FWIW, if the situation is awkward for TheSunnyMan, the prof in question may have already mentioned it to his/her advisor. I know I get updated on my class performance from my advisor each semester, in addition to the feedback I get from the professors actually teaching the courses I'm taking.

Pretty sweet that you get updated on your performance from your advisor. I only met with my advisor twice, all during course registration. She's not exactly the most attentive mentor, but I guess this is only my first semester and there's not much to be said from her side. But still, I have a feeling that the faculty from my department or my university in general is pretty elusive about that stuff. They all have their heads buried under their research, so I have to really take initiative to seek them out.

About your earlier advice, again, I'm relatively new to the department and haven't formed close personal relationship with any faculty memeber yet, so I feel a little trapped. But I did talk to someone about my situation today and she also advised me to 1) talk to that professor and ask her how I am doing in the course and how I can do better, as opposed to putting her on the defense and asking her why she is treating me differently or; 2) stick it out and continue to be myself and participate in class regardless of whether I'm getting acknowledgements or encouragements from her side because when it comes down to it, it's all about priority. I can either give up and be intidmated by ONE faculty member, not speak up in class, and risk the opportunity to learn or I can just keep doing what I should be doing, participating, improving, etc and not let her evaulation of me get in the way. I can't control her behavior and I'd probaly drive myself nuts analyzing every detailed thing she does or doesn't do to me in a relatively large seminar room.

[Firled]

Pretty sweet that you get updated on your performance from your advisor. I only met with my advisor twice, all during course registration. She's not exactly the most attentive mentor, but I guess this is only my first semester and there's not much to be said from her side. But still, I have a feeling that the faculty from my department or my university in general is pretty elusive about that stuff. They all have their heads buried under their research, so I have to really take initiative to seek them out.

About your earlier advice, again, I'm relatively new to the department and haven't formed close personal relationship with any faculty memeber yet, so I feel a little trapped. But I did talk to someone about my situation today and she also advised me to 1) talk to that professor and ask her how I am doing in the course and how I can do better, as opposed to putting her on the defense and asking her why she is treating me differently or; 2) stick it out and continue to be myself and participate in class regardless of whether I'm getting acknowledgements or encouragements from her side because when it comes down to it, it's all about priority. I can either give up and be intidmated by ONE faculty member, not speak up in class, and risk the opportunity to learn or I can just keep doing what I should be doing, participating, improving, etc and not let her evaulation of me get in the way. I can't control her behavior and I'd probaly drive myself nuts analyzing every detailed thing she does or doesn't do to me in a relatively large seminar room.

As a sociology of education doctoral student there are hundreds of studies which document your exact experience so you are not imagining things. Sometimes this occurs because the faculty member is unfamiliar/uncomfortable with minorities. So the professor might ignore or avert eye contact with you. Sometimes these are referred to as something called racial microagressions. They are tiny actions that go unnoticed by most of the class. If you mentioned this to your white colleagues, I would bet they never notice anything.

I had this happen to me before but I would suggest whenever possible trying to speak to this prof informally so they get a sense of your background and start 'seeing you.' If the prof seems open enough, you can try addressing the subject using humor and see if the prof becomes defensive or laughs along with you. Since most people fear being accused of racism, humor often works to disarm them. It never ceases to amaze me how minority students have to work harder to overcome everyday things that go unnoticed by other students!

[herself the elf]

But I did talk to someone about my situation today and she also advised me to 1) talk to that professor and ask her how I am doing in the course and how I can do better, as opposed to putting her on the defense and asking her why she is treating me differently

Thanks for raising this issue on Gradcafe, it is a really important topic.

I think visiting her is a great idea. Swing by her office hours, tell her you like her course and ask her how you are doing and how you could improve. You might even be able to pull off saying something like, "I'm having a hard time getting into class discussion, what do you suggest?" or something. You could also lighten the conversation with something like, "I saw on your CV that you are researching X, that sounds really interesting, could you tell me about it?" But I agree with another poster who mentioned that a lot of professors are socially awkward; sometimes they need a little help to normalize a weird relationship.

You may or may not get the response you want, but at least after she knows your name she will notice you more and be more likely to include you.

After many years of fighting disappointing battles, nowadays I am mostly resorting to charming my enemies, and it generally works.

[ScotchDave]

Hi SunnyMan,

I'm sorry to hear you're having this problem, I did want to let you know of one similar situation I'd come across. I don't know what your real name is, but the gentleman in question had a particularly difficult name to pronounce. He was in a similar situation to you, he felt like the lecturer was ignoring him etc. Eventually after a lot of digging about we managed to uncover that the lecturer didn't know how to pronounce his name properly, was too embarassed to ask and was worried that if he admitted this he'd be seen as racist or ignorant. Once he knew the students name the poor guy got asked a question pretty much every class.

I hope this helps and I think it's very commendable of you to take such a positive view point in this whole situation.

All the best,

Dave