Canadian with Master's applying for US PhD - expected time to completion and chances of admission

[TheLastJedi]

I have a Canadian Master's degree and I'd appreciate if anyone can answer any of my questions.

In Canada, you usually complete your Master's before applying for a PhD, which from what I heard at my Master's institution is expected to be completed in 4 years, but I think sometimes can be done in 3. But in the US, you normally apply for a PhD after your Bachelor's, and I think PhD is expected to take 5.5 to 6 years (in STEM fields) and possibly longer. 

If I already have a Master's which took 2 years to complete, will this shorten the amount of time to complete an American PhD (and if so, by how much) or will it make no difference? I've tried looking for this on universities' websites but I have a hard time finding a good answer - some universities seem to say a few courses can be transferred, some say they can't, and others say it depends on whether they consider the Master's courses to be on par with theirs. But even if transfers are allowed, it seems that I have to petition for the course transfers as a PhD student. Is it possible to find out how much of my Master's can count towards the PhD before accepting the offer or before applying to the school? This also applies for whether my Master's thesis can be counted.

This is important to me as I'm an older applicant and would rather not spend too much time getting the PhD. I know I can't get another Master's along the way if I'm going for a PhD in the same field so I think it's risky I have to spend as much time as Bachelor's applicants without the insurance of getting a MS degree along the way. I'd probably prefer doing a PhD in the US but if it saves time to do it in Canada that would be a factor in my decision. Also, how would it be different if I did a PhD in a different field than my Master's/undergrad major? If anyone knows the situation in other countries such as the UK it would be helpful too.

Also,

I know that international applicants have much lower acceptance rates for grad school in the US compared to American citizens (and similarly for Canadian schools). But most of them are from overseas. If I'm a Canadian citizen, how does that affect my admission chances? (It all depends on why international applicants have lower acceptance rates). 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by TheLastJedi

[TakeruK]

Hello!

I applied to US PhD programs with a Canadian Masters and I had many of the same questions as you. I am about to finish my US PhD program now! Here are the answers to your questions:

Time to degree:
It is pretty unlikely that you will be able to significantly reduce the time of your PhD in the United States. As you know, most US programs is a 5.5-6 year direct PhD program and having a Masters degree, from Canada or from anywhere else, will not change that. That said, there are students in the STEM fields in the US that finish faster than 5.5-6 years, however, it has nothing to do with a Masters degree---they would have finished quickly no matter what. In my department about half of us finish in 5 years and the other half finish in 6 years. I'm 2 months from graduation, and I started my PhD 5 years ago. There are a few students in my department that finish in 3.5 or even 4 years and they don't have Masters degrees---they either were just really productive and finished early or there was a postdoc lined up for them (for those who want to finish early, typically having a postdoc already lined up helps you convince your committee that you're ready to move on).

Course requirements:
This depends a lot on the school. At my current school, the course requirements are pretty low. The requirement is 11 quarter-length courses (3 quarters per year, this is equivalent to 6-7 semester-length courses in Canada). My school does not grant credit for any courses taken prior to the PhD program. However, if you did take an equivalent course then you can use it as a pre-requisite to take a more advanced version of the same course if you want. That is, you won't have to repeat any courses but you still need to take the same number of courses. There is one exception: my PhD field is multidisciplinary (people come in with a range of degrees, from Geology to Math to Physics to Chemistry) and there are 1 or 2 "fundamental" courses (e.g. Introduction to Geology). If you have the equivalent at the undergrad or graduate level, then you can skip that course (you won't get credit but that requirement will be removed for you).

At another school, there were 11 semester-length classes that takes 2 years to complete. They don't grant credit for Masters courses, however, after the first year, you can choose to challenge the qualifying exam if you want. So, if you happen to already know the material in the 2nd year courses, you can basically skip them if you can pass the exam. This doesn't sound like a very good way to go though. At yet another school, there were 16 (!!) semester length classes over 2 years. This school requires a PhD-major and a PhD-minor (4 classes). If you have a Masters degree, they will waive your minor requirement, so it's only 12 semester length classes. Finally, one last school I considered has no official class requirements. Instead, in the first month, you meet with a tracking committee and they put together a course list for you based on your past experience and your research goals.

In every case though, your Masters thesis will not count for anything. There is no "Masters thesis" requirement in US PhD programs so there's nothing it can count for.

Switching fields:
My BSc and MSc degrees were in Astronomy. For almost all of the example schools listed above, they were Astronomy PhD programs. However, for the school I actually chose, the program is in Planetary Science, which is in the Geology/Earth science side, so my field is actually different (since you asked). Because my previous Masters was in Astronomy, my US school granted me a Masters in Planetary Science after I met the Masters degree requirements. Many US schools do allow you to get a "Masters along the way" (but it depends on the school and the program, other fields, such as Chemistry, do not do this at my school). So I have 2 Masters degrees! But if I were enrolled in the Astronomy PhD program at my school, I would not have been able to get a Masters degree form my current school as they will not grant a degree that you already hold.

International student status:
There are two main reasons why international students have a harder time applying to US schools.
1) US profs don't recognize the prestige/name/quality of your undergrad program. This obviously isn't a problem if you are applying from the top schools in your country, such as UBC/Toronto/McGill in Canada, or say, Oxford, Cambridge, ETH Zurich, MPIA, etc. (whatever is well known internationally in your field). But if you are applying from a second-tier international school, profs might not recognize it as such compared to an American applying from a second-tier US school. Also, the difference in school systems internationally can be confusing. This is generally not an issue for Canadians.

2) International students cost way way more than American students at public universities. For example, at UC Berkeley, an international student tuition costs about $50,000 per year. An American costs under $20,000 per year. It will cost the department 2.5x times more money to pay for an international student than an American student. So, there are fewer spots for international students and thus it is more competitive. You see it reflected in the numbers: Only 10% of UC Berkeley grad students are international even though more than half of all applicants are international(!). These numbers are the same for big state schools across the US (some schools, like Wisconsin boasts "one of the highest international student population in the country" and they have just under 12%). However, at private US schools, all students cost a ton of money, no matter their status. I'm at a private school right now and tuition is about $43,000 per year for everyone, Americans and internationals. As such, everyone is treated the same. About 47% of our current graduate population are international students. 

The second point is a much bigger deal for Canadians than the first point. 

Summary thoughts:
When I was applying to US schools, I was also trying to finish as quickly as possible. I was really focused on finding programs that I could finish in 4 years. In hindsight, some of this focus on finishing early was a mistake. When I graduate this year, I will have spent 7 years in grad school in total (2 years MSc, 5 years PhD). The program I did choose did offer the possibility of 4 years (the minimum time is 3 years) and at first, I started with this goal in mind. But then, after a year in the program, I realised that there is no reason to rush to finish in 4 years. My school is one of the top programs in the world in my field and I benefited a lot from all the resources and facilities available to me. Even though I am a little older than all of my peers since I took 5 years to finish my undergrad since I did a co-op program (so I am 3 years older than every student that started with me), I don't feel that old. I will be receiving my PhD a month before I turn 30. But in the end, I only spent 1 year more in grad school than I would if I had stayed in Canada.

My opinion is that for some fields (such as mine), the US PhD programs are just so much better than what Canada could offer. When I look at profs in my field in Canada, they almost all have US PhDs (or significant time in the US as postdocs). The amount of resources and support I have at my disposal at my top school in the US was unimaginable when I was at Canadian schools. I will be returning to Canada this summer for a postdoc fellowship position and I am sure that the extra quality of my US program helped me win this position. So I think the extra year is well worth it. The slight change of subfield also helped justify (to me) the additional coursework.

Finally, some tips for someone like me searching for a US PhD program:

1. I only applied to US programs that were better than any program in Canada. The top programs in Canada were my backup plans and I applied mostly to US private schools or top public schools (e.g UC Berkeley in my field). I applied to top private schools because of the funding reason I wrote above. I ended up getting accepted to many top private programs but rejected from "less competitive" public programs!

2. I looked for school that had a strong focus on research rather than coursework. I really wanted to avoid a 6 year PhD program that typically gets you to do 2 years of coursework and 4 years of research. I wanted an experience more like Canada where you start research as soon as you begin. This was a big factor in choosing the program that I did. One sign of such a program is an earlier qualifying exam. The timing of the exam signals the end of the majority of coursework. Mine was at the end of the first year. Many other programs had them at the end of year 2. 

3. Keep an open mind about degree timing and instead search for the best experience you can get during the application stage. For something like the last paragraph, you'd decide this after you get offers and are choosing which school to go to. Again, I really think the very best US programs are an order of magnitude better than the top Canadian programs, and it's well worth the extra year or two.

Of course, this all depends on what your goals are. I'm assuming that your main goal is like mine: achieve the best training possible for my career but also considering the cost of time and personal comfort (moving countries etc.). This is why I only applied to the best US programs, I didn't feel like it was worth the extra time plus the stress of moving to the US if it was not for the best schools and access to training I can't get in Canada. 

It sounds like there are a lot of parallels between your situation and my experience, so I'd be happy to discuss this more if you have more questions too!

[steve3020]

1 hour ago, TakeruK said:

Again, I really think the very best US programs are an order of magnitude better than the top Canadian programs, and it's well worth the extra year or two.

Hi TakeruK, I'm pretty sure you answered this question elsewhere but...Do you think this applies to humanities programmes too? I can understand that huge funding that top US schools provide may be crucial in scientific research but I wonder if the quality of teaching and research in humanities suffer due to this difference. As I'm on the waitlist for a top Canadian and a US school this may become relevant to me soon if I have to make a decision between them. 

[eternallyephemeral]

2 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Of course, this all depends on what your goals are. I'm assuming that your main goal is like mine: achieve the best training possible for my career but also considering the cost of time and personal comfort (moving countries etc.). This is why I only applied to the best US programs, I didn't feel like it was worth the extra time plus the stress of moving to the US if it was not for the best schools and access to training I can't get in Canada.

Hi TakeruK,

This was very helpful for me as well, thanks for posting. I have one quick question: if my main goal is not exactly like yours, in that I am in an applied research program and I plan to go to industry (where PhD degrees are necessary for some positions), does the extra time and duplication of classes still make sense?

To give you some context, I am thinking about applying to top US private schools that might have a better research fit and would open more doors (potentially) after my masters at a mid-tier school in Canada (a step down from my undergrad at a top Canadian school, but nonetheless the best step at the time).

Sorry to hijack this thread, I am just considering the same issues as the OP and I am not sure whether going to an American school and taking longer makes sense if industry is my goal. To be clear, I still enjoy research, the industry jobs I am aiming for require research skills, but I have other concerns about taking more time in the PhD such as the opportunity cost of industry already being so high, two-body problem concerns, and thoughts about starting a family that loom closer as my last year in school moves more towards my 30s.

Thanks!

[TakeruK]

3 hours ago, steve3020 said:

Hi TakeruK, I'm pretty sure you answered this question elsewhere but...Do you think this applies to humanities programmes too? I can understand that huge funding that top US schools provide may be crucial in scientific research but I wonder if the quality of teaching and research in humanities suffer due to this difference. As I'm on the waitlist for a top Canadian and a US school this may become relevant to me soon if I have to make a decision between them. 

Sorry, I am totally unqualified to answer this question  The OP wrote about STEM fields so that's why I steered my response in that direction. I think Canada actually has more public funding for the humanities than the US (for example, there is no equivalent to SSHRC in the United States). But other than that, no idea!

1 hour ago, eternallyephemeral said:

Hi TakeruK,

This was very helpful for me as well, thanks for posting. I have one quick question: if my main goal is not exactly like yours, in that I am in an applied research program and I plan to go to industry (where PhD degrees are necessary for some positions), does the extra time and duplication of classes still make sense?

To give you some context, I am thinking about applying to top US private schools that might have a better research fit and would open more doors (potentially) after my masters at a mid-tier school in Canada (a step down from my undergrad at a top Canadian school, but nonetheless the best step at the time).

Sorry to hijack this thread, I am just considering the same issues as the OP and I am not sure whether going to an American school and taking longer makes sense if industry is my goal. To be clear, I still enjoy research, the industry jobs I am aiming for require research skills, but I have other concerns about taking more time in the PhD such as the opportunity cost of industry already being so high, two-body problem concerns, and thoughts about starting a family that loom closer as my last year in school moves more towards my 30s.

Thanks!

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but when I wrote that my main goal was to "achieve the best training possible for my career", I didn't mean academia only---I was including non-academic careers too (in my field, not too much industry but there are plenty of non-academic jobs for people with PhDs in my field). So, another reason I applied to top US schools was to have the fancy brand name on my degree. The school I'm at now is a very well known school by employers that might hire me. In fact, this was part of my decision making process---I chose my school (an internationally recognized school that is also a top 10 in my field) instead of another school that was a top 5 school in my field, but not very well known in general (a typical state school that just happens to be one of the very best in my field). 

So, the duplication of classes isn't helpful but the amount of wasted time is actually quite low. You can just make the minimum acceptable (not the minimum passing) grade in those classes. I think I spent about 270 hours total in duplicated classes, including homework, reading, attending lectures, studying etc. (3 courses x 9 hours per week x 10 weeks). A typical work year is about 2000 hours, so this is like 10% of one year. Or, if we say our time is wroth something like $20-$30 per hour, this is around $6000-$9000. 

The wasted time is a bigger one. It would probably take at least one extra year to go to a school in the US. For my field, if you go into non-academic route, starting salaries after a PhD can be in the $90,000 to $120,000 range. But, this is for US positions. Since I've been away for awhile, I'm not sure what the Canadian market for equivalent jobs would be like. So I guess this is more of a gamble because if you graduated one year earlier, you would have like $100,000 more (plus time towards promotion etc.) But with a top US PhD, you might make even more money and earn that back faster. Or, maybe you won't be able to get such a great job right away from a lower tier school. But at the same time, you are not guaranteed a job with a top tier PhD either. 

Personally, I felt the extra year was worth it because a top tier PhD opens up both academic and non-academic options for me. I also think the placement rates for my PhD school are much better than the Canadian school I would have chosen (Toronto). But yeah, this is a tough thing to evaluate and I don't know how to give you any better advice than to tell you about my process and hope that you find it helpful. Good luck on making the best choice for you

[eternallyephemeral]

1 hour ago, TakeruK said:

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but when I wrote that my main goal was to "achieve the best training possible for my career", I didn't mean academia only---I was including non-academic careers too (in my field, not too much industry but there are plenty of non-academic jobs for people with PhDs in my field). So, another reason I applied to top US schools was to have the fancy brand name on my degree. The school I'm at now is a very well known school by employers that might hire me. In fact, this was part of my decision making process---I chose my school (an internationally recognized school that is also a top 10 in my field) instead of another school that was a top 5 school in my field, but not very well known in general (a typical state school that just happens to be one of the very best in my field). 

So, the duplication of classes isn't helpful but the amount of wasted time is actually quite low. You can just make the minimum acceptable (not the minimum passing) grade in those classes. I think I spent about 270 hours total in duplicated classes, including homework, reading, attending lectures, studying etc. (3 courses x 9 hours per week x 10 weeks). A typical work year is about 2000 hours, so this is like 10% of one year. Or, if we say our time is wroth something like $20-$30 per hour, this is around $6000-$9000. 

The wasted time is a bigger one. It would probably take at least one extra year to go to a school in the US. For my field, if you go into non-academic route, starting salaries after a PhD can be in the $90,000 to $120,000 range. But, this is for US positions. Since I've been away for awhile, I'm not sure what the Canadian market for equivalent jobs would be like. So I guess this is more of a gamble because if you graduated one year earlier, you would have like $100,000 more (plus time towards promotion etc.) But with a top US PhD, you might make even more money and earn that back faster. Or, maybe you won't be able to get such a great job right away from a lower tier school. But at the same time, you are not guaranteed a job with a top tier PhD either. 

Personally, I felt the extra year was worth it because a top tier PhD opens up both academic and non-academic options for me. I also think the placement rates for my PhD school are much better than the Canadian school I would have chosen (Toronto). But yeah, this is a tough thing to evaluate and I don't know how to give you any better advice than to tell you about my process and hope that you find it helpful. Good luck on making the best choice for you

Thanks very much for your clarification! I did read your main goal that way (i.e., as relevant to academic and non-academic), but I wondered about the starting salaries bit and the balancing act of taking more time at a top-tier school (if I get in, that is) compared to taking less time at a lower-tier school. There are some added complications for my personal situation, but your advice (and salary info) is extremely relevant.

I appreciate your well wishes, I have a big choice to make so all of the extra information and personal experience helps!