3rd time the charm?

[mathamathick]

This might be my first post but I have been scouring gradcafe for quite a while. Three years in fact, since I started applying to grad schools. I am a prospective Mathematics PhD student and can't seem to get through. I have had to face no acceptances two years running and my hope for this year seems fading by the minute.

The thing I need at this moment is probably a reality check and am not sure if I can handle it. Pure Mathematics is the only thing I like doing and the only thing I am good at (at least in my opinion), but am not sure what my prospects/opportunities are if not accepted to grad school.

What do I do? Do I accept that I am a deluded, out of mind applicant, or blame it on the recession (like many more)? Did I just choose very bad time to be mediocre?

I guess what I need is some confidence boost or a total upheaval this year.

My Stats are

GRE - 800Q/600V/4.5AW

GRE Subject Score - 780 - 80 percentile

GPA 3.7, Math GPA 3.9

Schools applied to last few years: Rutgers, PennState, North Carolina, NC State, UIUC, UMass, Iowa, Northeastern...and the list goes on.

The funny thing is, even the schools that I consider safety end up rejecting me. And am probably too rigid to apply to unknown schools.

What are your opinions? Should I keep applying and hope for the best? Or hang up my boots and become a copywriter?

note: Please don't be rude. I am not sure my currently fragile psyche can handle any more.

Edited February 18, 2010 by mathamathick

[yoshimoshi]

This might be my first post but I have been scouring gradcafe for quite a while. Three years in fact, since I started applying to grad schools. I am a prospective Mathematics PhD student and can't seem to get through. I have had to face no acceptances two years running and my hope for this year seems fading by the minute.

The thing I need at this moment is probably a reality check and am not sure if I can handle it. Pure Mathematics is the only thing I like doing and the only thing I am good at (at least in my opinion), but am not sure what my prospects/opportunities are if not accepted to grad school.

What do I do? Do I accept that I am a deluded, out of mind applicant, or blame it on the recession (like many more)? Did I just choose very bad time to be mediocre?

I guess what I need is some confidence boost or a total upheaval this year.

My Stats are

GRE - 800Q/600V/4.5AW

GRE Subject Score - 780 - 80 percentile

GPA 3.7, Math GPA 3.9

Schools applied to last few years: Rutgers, PennState, North Carolina, NC State, UIUC, UMass, Iowa, Northeastern...and the list goes on.

The funny thing is, even the schools that I consider safety end up rejecting me. And am probably too rigid to apply to unknown schools.

What are your opinions? Should I keep applying and hope for the best? Or hang up my boots and become a copywriter?

note: Please don't be rude. I am not sure my currently fragile psyche can handle any more.

Just don't give in yet, keep on trying.

[fuzzylogician]

At this stage of the game there is nothing you can do but hope for the best.

If you end up being unsuccessful, you would need to take a step back and evaluate what went wrong. Your stats are good enough that they can't be what is keeping you out. Maybe it's a bad choice of schools? Maybe your SOP need more work? Maybe one of your recommendation letters is harming you? These are all things you might want to question, as well as reexamine your drive to apply to grad school yet another time.

Right now is not the time to be worrying about all this, though. Keep your hopes up, and try not to worry until you know something really did go wrong. Good luck!

[bikefarm]

Hang in there. It'll happen -- whether it's now or in the future.

[JerryLandis]

Maybe you should try something else for a while before applying again. I can't imagine how mentally exhausting, not to mention expensive, it must be to go through this 3 years in a row. I don't mean to suggest giving up, and I don't know what you're doing in the meantime (working, unemployed, career type position or minimum wage gig, etc.), but maybe taking some time to do something else will help boost your confidence and maybe improve your CV, plus save up some money. I know that when I had a look online for possible non-academic plan B opportunities, I found myself getting kind of excited about them and secretly hoping I did get rejected so I'd have an excuse to pursue that kind of stuff. Seems like doing something new and crazy would be a good way to get new ideas about what you'd like to do within your field (even if the job is totally unrelated - maybe leisurely reading would lead you in the direction of a new research proposal). Anyways, I'm not suggesting you give up on the PhD by any means, since it sounds like you're really committed to doing it.

In any case, maybe there's something off in your SOP that you aren't aware of. Have you had anyone read it for you to give feedback? I don't know what math is like in terms of what is valued in an application. I gather you've completed an undergraduate degree but not a masters? Personally I'm hoping that doing an MA this coming year will make me a more desirable candidate when I reapply at PhD programs.

Also, maybe your proposed interests aren't fashionable enough. I know that when I reapply, I intend to broaden the interests in my SOP according to different department strengths. Even though I really like my specific topic, I'll propose doing research in only tangentially related stuff, since that would be better than not getting to do any research at all. Again, I'm not sure how it works in math (every time I've spoken to a math major about their subject, the stuff they say blows my mind so much I don't have any idea what it is they actually do), and maybe you have already done this, but those are just a few suggestions from a fellow applicant.

[Summit_Bid]

I'm soooo glad you posted this. I'm in the exact same situation as you (although I'm in a different major-Cinema Studies). You and I are the exact same on pretty much every level. This is also my third year applying to schools (I did 15 apps this year) and I don't think I'm going to make it.

I don't know why. I suppose we never really will. I don't know anything about math but it seems like your stats are good so I don't know what's going on. I know for me a big problem I'm having is that my MA is not closely enough related to what I want a PhD in. I think that's a possible problem-that and my super stellar but not SUPER stellar stats. It is competitive out there and a lot of people are so desperate to get in that they lie on their apps. I worked a little in admissions so I know this is sometimes true.

My professors from where I did my MA and BA tell me if I can write a really good statement of purpose I might be able to "sel myself to them" or "persuade the adcoms" or whatever. It appears I'm not a writer.

I'm so sorry to hear your story. I know exactely what you are going through.

If I don't get in this year I will not apply again unless something REALLY changes my application. For example if for some odd reason I get something published, get a teaching position or something like that I'll apply again but for right now I think I really did everything I could do to make my app the best it can be so after three years I'm going to finally give it a break for a while. I'm not giving up on it entirely, just taking time off to try other things, broaden my perspective and see what I can change. I hate doing this. It's not what I want to do or planned. I'm ashamed of myself. I think I'm a failure but...I don't know. I think this is the way I guess.

I've said this before on other threads but if a PhD is what you want then continue to go for it. If you have the time, energy and resources to apply again then do so. I think it's wise to take a step back, and asses your situation and apply again later rather then right away but it's up to you.

Others on this board have said to me that I'm wasting me my time. Someone on another thread similar to this one said he knew someone who applied to schools for years and could never get in and after a few years realized he was spending so much time on trying for PhD that he missed out on having a family or real job etc. Don't end up like that. Don't hold off anything while you apply. Just keep going...on something. Continue with your school if you are still in school, try to find some jobs you like (easier said than done) and think of other ways you can still get to your goals without the Phd-it's possible actually. It really is. Maybe it's a small chance but it's possible. I've got stories to prove it.

Anyways, I understand also what you mean when you say you don't like anything else. I'm in the same boat. Many people don't believe or understand this but I get it. It makes total sense to me. Your life is going to go on...it has since the first year you applied. I'm realizing things take longer than expected. So maybe the timing is off.

Don't give up entirely just yet. It is the economy, it could be other people have more impressive qualifications than you--for now at least-you'll never know. It could be a lot of things.

If math is what you love, keep pursuing it. When you don't want to any more than don't. Throughout this whole process don't forget to live life.

Never under any circumstance take anything personally. I worked in admissions for a while and learned that admissions is so crazy and messed up. But again, don't take this as personal. I wish I could drill this into your head. Take time and explore for now. I know, easier said than done.

I can't express how much I just know something better is out there waiting for you and for now this thing is controlled by time.

I wish you knew how much I understand you and what you are thinking because I know many others don't.

[mathamathick]

Thank you all for the valuable comments, it definitely brings attention to some aspects I might not have considered. It also helps a lot knowing other people are in the same boat (looking at you, Maybe_Someday). I guess I was just feeling very vulnerable after watching so many people get accepted on the results page, and let myself pour out. But my resolve is strong and I will manage.

The thing is, since I have graduated, I have been working in the Corporate Sector as well as working on Mathematics. I can't tell you how much I despise going to work, meddling with the corporate people. So the point about looking elsewhere and finding something to love doesn't apply. Although, it does help me pay my application fees. Meanwhile, I can't pursue an MS because that is not really offered in Pure Mathematics (only offered for Applied Mathematics and Statistics, at least in good schools). It is usually straight to a 5-6 year PhD track after bachelor studies.

Fortunately for me, I woke up the right side of the bed this morning and feel upbeat about my chances. Working on applications three years in row has made me a better applicant. And even if I get rejected, I will apply again for the 4th, 5th and the 6th time if need be. But surely with a revised SOP, new Letters of Recommendation, and fresh GRE Subject Scores.

And Maybe_Someday, I understand you too, and all I can say is: Thanks for the consolation but it appears you need some yourself. For both of us, I guess, the motto should be: Hang in there, and pursue your dream. After all, life is a pursuit, not a culmination of any sort. In one lifetime, what are we to do if not what we want? And never call oneself a failure. What did we fail at? Who is judging us except ourselves ?

(well even if people are, who cares about em people.....)

Edited February 19, 2010 by mathamathick

[katalytik]

I suggest doing the Tiger Woods method. You have to control every variable as he controls his well-controlled message to the media. You may have the numbers, but it could be other things. This is the second time applying and I only applied to one school last year due to proximity. In fact, the fit was horrible. Not a single faculty member does what i want to do.

So it may not be your numbers, but the recs, the essay or fit of the program.

Maybe you should up the ante: work with a specific prof. over the next few months at a school you want to be at. Ask recommenders whether they can write a "strong letter" not simply "a letter". If they cannot then you need to find others who will. the essay needs to be reviewed by others (maybe some grad students in your field), etc. I am sure you can come up with other ways to refine the approach....... however, I can understand the frustration and not wanting to do it all again.

[Catch22alex]

Hang in there until you have been given all rejections. You may be surprised who takes a liking to your app... the school I thought was the most "safety" to me ended up rejecting me outright

[mathamathick]

Hang in there until you have been given all rejections. You may be surprised who takes a liking to your app... the school I thought was the most "safety" to me ended up rejecting me outright

(caution: biased/wishful thinking might be involved)

Could it be that schools reject those students who they think might be too good for their program? Do they somehow know that they are our safety schools?

[LadyL]

I am a third time applicant and thankfully was accepted to a program a few weeks ago, and have 6 more programs that I'm interviewing with. I went into this round very numb and without expectations, having been disappointed so much in the past. Even as I got interview invites, I still thought that I'd be the person who gets rejected across the board again. It wasn't until several days after my acceptance that it sunk in. And until I have accepted the offer I am still slightly paranoid that they will revoke it or something.

If I hadn't gotten in, I would have tried to push out some first authorship papers and given it one last go. At that point I would have been overqualified for grad school because I'd be working on the exact same level as post docs in the lab, so if I didn't get in I guess I would have accepted that it wasn't meant to be. But yeah, I think I would have done round 4, but probably not 5.

[mathamathick]

I am a third time applicant and thankfully was accepted to a program a few weeks ago, and have 6 more programs that I'm interviewing with. I went into this round very numb and without expectations, having been disappointed so much in the past. Even as I got interview invites, I still thought that I'd be the person who gets rejected across the board again. It wasn't until several days after my acceptance that it sunk in. And until I have accepted the offer I am still slightly paranoid that they will revoke it or something.

If I hadn't gotten in, I would have tried to push out some first authorship papers and given it one last go. At that point I would have been overqualified for grad school because I'd be working on the exact same level as post docs in the lab, so if I didn't get in I guess I would have accepted that it wasn't meant to be. But yeah, I think I would have done round 4, but probably not 5.

Unless I turn into Ramanujan overnight, it is necessary for me to attend grad school and obtain a PhD. There is no way, in this era, that I can add substantially to Mathematics without rigorous training of doctoral study. And hence my willingness to apply again and again till I get in.

I can also second you on the paranoia thing. I frequently dream about universities offering me admission only rescind them later.

[coyabean]

I just wanted to add to some of the excellent advice above. With your stats there is something in your packet that needs to be revised. It can be difficult figuring out what that is without some outside help. You mentioned that you are gainfully employed. That gives you a huge advantage -- you can afford services! I would contact someone in each department you applied to and see if anyone is willing to give you detailed feedback. Sometimes you find someone kind enough to help. Barring that working out yours is one of the rare cases that I think justifies a professional grad app service. Ask around to see which is reputable -- I have only heard of Ivy and one other, but i'm sure each field has its experts -- and have them give your app a look. A small investment could prove very beneficial in your case.

[swissmiss]

"A man's reach must exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for? -Robert Browning. This one keeps me going!

[Summit_Bid]

I just wanted to add to some of the excellent advice above. With your stats there is something in your packet that needs to be revised. It can be difficult figuring out what that is without some outside help. You mentioned that you are gainfully employed. That gives you a huge advantage -- you can afford services! I would contact someone in each department you applied to and see if anyone is willing to give you detailed feedback. Sometimes you find someone kind enough to help. Barring that working out yours is one of the rare cases that I think justifies a professional grad app service. Ask around to see which is reputable -- I have only heard of Ivy and one other, but i'm sure each field has its experts -- and have them give your app a look. A small investment could prove very beneficial in your case.

Coyabean, thanks for the advice. I actually did this. I worked with an admissions consultant in my field and had editor go over my SOP, writing sample and resume. All the work WAS MY OWN - I know, there are those of you out there that think this is cheating-so far, it appears the big bucks I spent (I work full time too) didn't work, although I'm still waiting to hear from some schools. In the past I called schools and they all mentioned my low GRE score but said it wasn't the GRE score that is a make it or break it detail. I never got a straight answer from anyone but all-in-all I think it was just that other people were stronger than me in every area.

Knowing that is really frustrating because although vague it's probably true. I've talked to others in my field who have been accepted and their stats are similar to mine so I don't get what gives. It's still a mystery and probably always will be.

Yes, I agree with you Coyabean, that something is definitely wrong with our apps but I still can't figure out what.

Frustrating.

[someDay]

mathamathick,

This seems odd. Your stats are good enough for top universities. There must be a grave flaw with your letters, your university history or your SOP quotes Mein Kampf. Who're your letter writers? Have you attended community college? Also, there are a HUGE number of universities offering master's degrees in Pure Mathematics, in the States and abroad. (it might not be labelled Pure, but it's still Pure

I'm absolutely sure that even with average SOP and average to good letters some you'd be accepted somewhere.

Best of luck. I'm happy to proof-read to your SOP if you want some advice.

sD.

Edited February 20, 2010 by someDay

[captiv8ed]

Sometimes it is the luck of the draw. Look at folks that get accepted to a top-ranked school but not a mid-ranked school.

Have you made contact with professors at your schools of interest?