Big schools or smaller schools?

[samman1994]

Hello everyone,

I was having this discussion with one of my colleagues the other day, and thought it was interesting enough to discuss it here as well. We were discussing the difference between big schools (e.g. ivy leagues, UCs, etc.) versus smaller schools (state schools, private schools, or just lesser known schools overall) to apply to for PhDs. Each has its pros and cons, and overall different culture/social atmosphere. Just some very basic academic differences: 

Big Schools:

Pros:                                                  

Overall a bigger program, more resources, potentially bigger name faculty members, along with a big brand name can help your application for after your PhD/Undergrad program, as well as having more opportunities for interesting research with the potential for more publications. 

Cons:

All of this comes at the expense of less interactions/access to your PI/Professor (I know this is true in regards to classes, but I don't know if it applies to research as well). Furthermore, there is much more competition at bigger schools, meaning you will stand out less than at a smaller school. 

Smaller Schools:

A smaller program meaning less research opportunities (you can have great faculty members here as well). This however comes at the benefit of being much more intimate with the faculty and staff at the school. Allowing for potentially less networking opportunities than at a bigger school, but enabling stronger networking connections than at a bigger school.

Overall though, from my experience, it comes down to culture and social atmosphere of the school. I personally prefer smaller schools much more. I find they care a lot more about individual students than bigger schools (at every level). A perfect example of this can be when I emailed say a small state university vs. Harvard regarding enrollment and programs. Harvard simply linked their site (literally harvard.edu) and said all the information will be there (not very helpful at all), whereas the small state university wrote me a long thing thanking me for my interest and providing in depth details regarding the various programs they have. Now of course this is probably because Harvard probably gets thousands of emails every application season that is identical to mine, whereas the smaller school may receive only a few hundred. So one side is overloaded and can't really go into detail with every email (it would take forever), whereas the other can go in depth and get personal with every single email (since there aren't that many). This goes for the faculty as well. Smaller schools have faculty that are much more excited and interested to take you on (before you even get accepted). 

At smaller schools I have been able to have intimate relationships with most faculty in my department, as well as the staff members in administration, all the way up to the dean of the school himself.  In regards to the grad students, there is also a much smaller class, meaning the entire departments grad students are all very close/friends with one another and sometimes even have big group hangouts with other grad student departments (e.g. Chemistry and Biochemistry going out for bowling or something).

Regardless, it's all really a matter of preference at the end day. It's like saying do you like huge urban cities like New York, or smaller rural areas like... I don't know farms or mid america. They each have their pros/cons and it's up to each individual and what they like. And this all comes from my personal experience (which isn't much compared to others on this forumn), so your experiences may vary 

So what is your personal preference and why? I just touched upon the very basics, but there is a lot more involved and different between big and small schools. 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by samman1994

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

Thought I'd add my two cents:

I've had extensive conversations with people at large programs and small, but a couple of the programs I reached out to replied with more standard information (go to our website for more) than others. Typically, these were larger programs. Regarding time with your PI, it absolutely can extend beyond the classroom and class sizes. One of the faculty at a smaller program mentioned that she currently is adviser to two doctoral students while her colleague at another program is juggling 16. This does impact the amount of attention and care you will get and is something to consider.

Big programs typically have more resources (more labs, money, and better-known faculty), but that doesn't mean you should exclude smaller programs. Faculty I've spoken with have specifically mentioned some smaller programs making pushes to increase their presence in my field (by hiring more well-known faculty, pushing for more funds, etc). These are smaller programs now, so you can still get personal attention, but they are putting in a lot of effort to not be small for long. That means you could be at the forefront of their efforts; having first access to some of their new resources and getting a lot of support in your research and presentation circuit (conferences, talk shows, etc). At the same time, there can be growing pains in these situations.

One thing I want to mention: definitely go where the culture is correct for you, but don't assume that small programs all have friendly collaborative cohorts. It is possible for these programs to be just as competitive (if not more so) as the large programs as students compete for limited resources. Some cohorts are friendly and collaborative at either size of program, but this atmosphere is less dependent on size of program and more dependent on the specific department culture. I also want a cohort that is more collaborative, so I'm going to make a point to personally visit any schools I'm accepted to and speak to students in addition to faculty. In fact, I've had the pleasure of speaking with some students already and it has really helped me get a sense for the positives and negatives of the programs they attend. 

If accepted to multiple schools, my decision will be based on cultural fit as well as financials. I want a program where I feel I can succeed (and not by cutting the necks of the other students) and one where the financial package will be enough to keep me from going in debt to survive. As part of cultural fit, I'll look at job placements and how supportive the program is in helping place their recent graduates (at least one of the programs I've talked to mentioned they put a lot of effort into making sure their graduates find proper positions shortly after graduating).

As per the environment I like (area wise), I'm kind of up in the air. I like attending concerts, musicals, and other events, but I usually have to get dragged out from my house before I'll go. Ultimately, I think I can be happy as long as I have a decent place to live, can get fresh fruit and veggies, and stable internet access with minimum 6mbps upload (Twitch streamer). I don't really mind driving, but I don't have a car right now and don't want to pay for it/insurance/gas/upkeep so I'd rather live somewhere either walking/biking distance from school or with good public transportation. It's not something obvious, but because of the car situation I would also need to pick a place to live that is either close to a grocery store (walking distance) or has weekly farmer's markets (also close by) OR pick a program where I have enough funds to afford grocery delivery (whether that's Blue Apron, Eat Fresh, Amazon delivery, or something else). Food deserts are a big deal and I want to try not to slip into eating ramen (or something else I'm not supposed to consume) every day.

[lemma]

Interesting question - I'll digress to talk about types of schools in general. At the moment, I only plan on applying to two programs: one is global top 10, the other is global top 15, but neither university is ranked near that overall. I'm only applying to two programs because they're the only two programs where I genuinely see myself being happy for the next few years. 

In this process I've had some mentors hoping that I would apply to brand names - classmates with less research experience, lower scores and easier coursework were admitted to Princeton, Caltech, and Cambridge, to name a few. Part of me feels like I'm letting them down, especially the mentor who has never sent a student to institutions like that, who invested so much in me, who really wanted me to go. 

I went to an Ivy for my undergrad, and I wouldn't want to go to a similar school for graduate studies. I had an amazing education and I have zero regrets about matriculating there. Culturally though, it was hard. Everyone was trying to appear perfect all the time - and so busy! - if only to justify the sacrifices made to send them. This made it a lonely place for me, even though I know that I had a good circle of friends.  How I perceived the culture was likely influenced by some mental health issues that were either undiagnosed or not responding to treatment at the time, and I'm sure I would have gotten more out of it if I were there today. 

Anyway, somehow the last few years has made me reflect critically on what makes me happy and gives me meaning. People might question my passion and dedication if they look at my shortlist (a very short list!), but it's not about that. For me, it just comes down to solving interesting questions with approachable and engaged supervisors, at a university with good access to data, in a city which gives me what I need. Oh, and funding! 

Edited October 2, 2017 by lemma

[Concordia]

At some point, an organization gets so large that it becomes a collection of small ones.  That can be good or bad.

[_kita]

I went to both a small and big school. The big school was a lot better for my personal learning strengths. For the big schools, yes you could end up without a lot of interaction from your PI, but you're also affording more independence throughout your project. I preferred having all the resources at my fingertips, and critical insight when I wanted it without the hovering. But that is definitely a personal preference, and I'm sure not every big school/small school work the same way.

[samman1994]

3 hours ago, _kita said:

I went to both a small and big school. The big school was a lot better for my personal learning strengths. For the big schools, yes you could end up without a lot of interaction from your PI, but you're also affording more independence throughout your project. I preferred having all the resources at my fingertips, and critical insight when I wanted it without the hovering. But that is definitely a personal preference, and I'm sure not every big school/small school work the same way.

That I'd say is definitely up the PI and not necessarily defined by the size of the school. You can have big schools with the PI hovering over your neck (you need to go through them for everything you do), and you can have small schools where the PI does their own thing and you do your own. Personally, I went to a smaller school, with the entire graduate program (for my department) consisting of around 15 people (to give you perspective). My PI threw me onto my project when I was an undergrad and basically told me to have fun. I was completely independent on my project (and the only person on it), to the point I wasted a whole year doing very little because I didn't even know wtf I was doing. At an interview I was getting at Caltech, I talked extensively with the lab students there, and all of them said their PI was always involved in their work (hovering, constantly telling them what to do, couldn't do anything without getting his approval first, etc.). So again, I'd say that is really up to your PI. 

Now that being said, there is definitely a resource problem. At bigger schools (speculating), they may have more resources available so you may have a more options to do what you want (experiment wise). Luckily my project early on had quite a bit of funding, so my PI was able to buy the instrumentation we didn't have, but I still had to go to her and tell her to buy it (and do to budgeting reasons this took quite a while). Despite this, I was constantly met with, oh we don't have this instrument, we don't have this machine, so I can't run this experiment, etc. So that is definitely a big difference. 

[TakeruK]

I've been a student at three schools: Big public school in Canada (undergrad), Medium/Big public school in Canada (Masters) and Small Private School in USA (PhD). I now work at a national lab type institution (i.e. not a university) but we work closely with the local university (I am working on getting affiliate status so that I can co-supervise graduate students there). This school would be a "Medium public school" in Canada. 

In terms of research support and ability to do what you want, I felt I had the most freedom and support at the Small Private School. It was simply a matter of resources, like others mentioned here. In my 5 years of my PhD, whenever I asked for something, I was never ever denied because of money/resources. Sometimes I proposed some crazy idea that wasn't going to work so the faculty gently steered me towards more fruitful work. Or, my ideas were not 100% fleshed out and they guided me into forming a better project/decision for myself. There was also a lot less bureaucracy at the Small Private School because a large chunk of the funding comes from private sources, rather than federal grants so there were a lot fewer strings attached. 

I think this aspect of Small Private Schools are more generally universal to all Small Private Schools and that's why they are so appealing for PhD or postdoc positions. This is a time where you really want to be able to reach your full potential so if you can make money not a problem, then that's better. Before my PhD program, I knew that these small private schools were rich in resources, which was why I focussed mostly on these schools in PhD applications. But I was still floored when I actually got there and realised how much more advantages you get at these places compared to others. Compared to the public schools in Canada, my PhD school simply had orders of magnitude more money. Students were paid much better. Students had tons more opportunities to travel to conferences etc. I think my advisor spent an average of $5000 per year on conference and work-related travel for me, whereas even postdoc positions in Canada often only have money for 1 or 2 conferences per year. Because advisors have tons of money for each student, they often cared less about whether we are doing work that advances their goals, but instead, encouraged all of us to do work that advances our own goals. Many advisors who knew their students wanted to go into industry (e.g. data science) helped their students find projects that are scientifically useful but ultimately designed to train them to go onto these other career paths. 

However, money and resources are not the only things necessary for success in grad school. As others also said, the environment really matters. This is why school visits were really important for me. I visited several of these "small private schools" and only found one place where I felt I really belonged and clicked well with the faculty and students. It was a school and department where each individual person mattered and was valued. We felt like one big extended family. There were several family oriented events happening throughout the year but the administrators knew every student well. This is something that is certainly not generally true across all "small private schools", i.e. not all small departments are tight-knit. It's not even generally true within the same school---some departments at my PhD schools were more "micromanaged" and less collegial than others. 

On the other hand, there are some advantages to the bigger school. More diversity in areas of expertise for example. My PhD school barely had any humanities or social sciences on campus at all. There was no law school, no medical school etc. So the student culture is very different from the big public schools. Also, because it was small, it felt a lot more like a research institution than an actual university. These are personal preferences of course. I really missed interacting with graduate students from outside of Sciences/Engineering when I was a PhD student. But I really didn't mind the non-university feel at all. Every day felt more like going into an office to do work instead of still being a "student", and I actually preferred that. When I visited actual large universities, I felt overwhelmed by all the stuff going on and people running around! 

Ultimately, I am happy with the path I took. I would not have liked being at my "Small Private School" for my undergraduate work. I think being at a large school with diverse areas of research and tons of things going on all the time was important to my personal development during my undergrad years. Exposure to lots of different things and opportunities to try new interests were good. Although I was sad that these were reduced in grad school, it was worth it for the additional support for my research and career development. Also, it wasn't all bad....because the student population was smaller it meant that there were way more spots (relative to number of students) for involvement in campus clubs, sports teams, government etc. There were tons of things my friends and I were able to do at our small school that we would never be able to do at a large school. 

So, if you can find a small school with an environment that suits you, I'd say go for it. But again, it's personal preference. To me, the single most important thing to get out of grad school was preparation for a career and being able to reach the fullest of my abilities. I was constantly frustrated by lack of resources during my Canadian programs and I feel super lucky to have found a PhD program in the USA that is full of resources and also great people.