advisor problems :(

[dolcevita]

Hi all, I've been having problems with my advisor/diss director as of late and I feel like I need to step back and get some outsiders' opinions before I figure out if/how to act.

The past month or so, he's been increasingly unavailable to me, and increasingly more distant and borderline unfriendly/rude. I know that he has a lot on his plate right now, so the not being able to dedicate time to me isn't a huge concern to me - I work perfectly fine independently anyway. My issue is his attitude/behavior, which has not been an issue in the past - I've known him for over a year, and we've always had a decent relationship - pretty friendly and casual, to the point that I had almost seen him sort of as a friend, and certainly someone that I could trust. Considering the shift, I went to see him today to talk to him about it...he had recently been dismissive of some application materials I wanted him to look at (when a few weeks ago he had insisted that he needed to see them), and I simply wanted to know what prompted the change, b/c he had been vague in his email ("I don't need to see them" was all he had said). He told me he just didn't have the time to look at them. "fair enough," I told him, "but why couldn't you just say that in your email?" 

Anyway. He seemed to take offense that I was telling him how he should talk ("I'm just suggesting!") and that it wasn't his problem how I interpreted things. (I argued that yes, it does matter, especially if he's being vague)..it was just the most frustrating conversation (and just to clarify, the email incident was just an example among several incidents) - we just went in circles, with him telling me half a dozen times that I didn't seem to understand/care that he had other students/priorities/responsibilities besides me, and me insisting that YES, I did understand that, but that my issue was with how he was choosing to communicate that to me, and just how dismissive he's been w/ me lately, and I feel like I couldn't get through to him. And then he tells me that talking about this is all very "weird and uncomfortable"  and he just couldn't understand what the issue was, and finally that I was just wasting time discussing stuff that's just so irrelevant to work. I tried to argue that how we communicate IS relevant - if we have to work together, we should make the effort to do so harmoniously..and miscommunication/misinterpretations can jeopardize that. His response? "We don't have to work together...if you want to go with someone else, my feelings won't be hurt."

And then he just brushes this all off, tells me to stop overthinking things and just be happy, and then shooed me out b/c he had to be somewhere.

So I've been sitting here crying all evening because I feel jipped. I came to this program because of him. When I met him I was super jazzed b/c I felt like I had won the advisor lottery b/c he was so cool and seemed totally on the same page as me/supportive of my goals. And now he's being all hostile, and he tells me that he doesn't care if I go work with someone else? This last part just stings so much, because I want to work with him and I do respect him, and him telling me that implies that he doesn't care at all about me and doesn't respect me.  

I just don't know what to do at this point. Am I overreacting? He said as much. A few of the TAs I confided in don't think so (and acknowledge that he's been a bit of a jerk lately for some weird reason). If I am blowing this out of proportion, I definitely want to know. If I'm right to be upset...what should I do? I'm set to take my qualifying exams in a few weeks and am reluctant to wreak havoc w/ my committee setup. I have one other professor that I think I trust enough to talk to, but I'm not sure what she can do. I feel like my best option is to just deal with this the best I can so I can get the h. out of here with my phd...but I don't know how much of this I can take. I'm definitely not one to keep my mouth shut if I'm upset about something..but maybe that's something I need to learn to do?

Help!! I don't get to see my therapist for at least a few days, lol. Please and thank you.

[fuzzylogician]

Frankly it just sounds like he's busy and under a lot of pressure, and isn't handling it terribly well. It's probably got nothing to do with you. I understand that you don't like his tone when he's in this mood, and I can imagine that I would be the same. So that much I think is justified. That said, people aren't always good at taking criticism in real time, and especially when they're under pressure. Sounds like your conversation just pushed his buttons at a time when he wasn't ready to listen. Just like in other types of relationships, there are people who want to work things out immediately as they happen, and there are people who need to calm down and think things over before they have a conversation about what happened. If he's the latter type of person, you insisting to hash things out when he is telling you to let  them go might cause this kind of blowback. I don't know you or him, but I think that it'd probably be best if you ease off and try to have this conversation again at a later time, hopefully when whatever is on his mind is over. 

20 minutes ago, dolcevita said:

And now he's being all hostile, and he tells me that he doesn't care if I go work with someone else? This last part just stings so much, because I want to work with him and I do respect him, and him telling me that implies that he doesn't care at all about me and doesn't respect me.  

Meh, I don't know what led up to this and what he meant exactly, but again, things that are said in the heat of the moment might be things we later regrets. You might also not be in the mood to interpret him generously, given your interaction. In any event, the fact that he would be okay with you working with someone else does *not* mean he doesn't respect you. I think that good professors should always be happy to have their students meet with other profs, and if a student ends up choosing to make someone else their primary advisor, a good professor can understand and accept that and not be offended. Unless he told you he is no longer interested in working with you, I'd avoid over-interpreting anything. 

20 minutes ago, dolcevita said:

I'm set to take my qualifying exams in a few weeks and am reluctant to wreak havoc w/ my committee setup. I have one other professor that I think I trust enough to talk to, but I'm not sure what she can do. I feel like my best option is to just deal with this the best I can so I can get the h. out of here with my phd...but I don't know how much of this I can take. I'm definitely not one to keep my mouth shut if I'm upset about something..but maybe that's something I need to learn to do?

Wait, there's a long time between qualifying exams and graduating. And usually an even longer time between graduating and no longer being dependent on one's advisor (as in, unless you get a job immediately out of grad school, you'll need LORs from him for a while longer). I don't think suffering from a non-functional relationship over years is advisable. For quals, I think you don't want to touch anything at this point. I guess there are practical questions about the track record of this person and the department, but unless you have some specific concerns, I'd just leave it and concentrate on prepping for the exam. After that, when it's time to concentrate on your dissertation, there are ways of gently rotating people off the committee or replacing the chair. But I think this may be entirely premature. This sounds like out of character behavior, so why don't you give your advisor the benefit of the doubt and trust that there may be outside Life factors (or Work factors) affecting him that have nothing to do with you. It's a shame that he's not better at handling it, but this can happen to anyone, and maybe at this point you should just wait a bit to see what happens. 

[dolcevita]

Hmm, I'm not sure he's good at taking criticism at all, but I think you're right and I should attempt to leave this alone for a while. I think the dust will start to settle for him in a few weeks, just as I'm about to take my exams..so hopefully by then things will have resolved themselves on their own.

Re: me working with someone else: I think that was him jumping on the fact that I had said "if we HAVE to work together..." (emphasis he heard, not my actual emphasis) it definitely wasn't said in a calm, "oh, you have someone else in mind that you'd like to work with who better suits your needs? Alright, no worries!" kind of way. It was said in a more, "pff. you're not even a blip on my radar" sort of way. I know, this is just my interpretation and I could totally be wrong about it...but it just came as a totally unprovoked and unnecessary comment, and is definitely proving to be the hardest thing to let go of.

...but I'll try. Having read your comments I think I agree that I ought to just leave things alone for a while and see what happens post-exams. Not going to lie, it's going to be hard to let this all go - for me, letting go requires distance, and unfortunately I have a class with him, so I have the pleasure of seeing him and being reminded of how frustrating he is a couple times a week. :-/

Thanks for your feedback, I feel a little calmer about this!

 

[fuzzylogician]

9 hours ago, dolcevita said:

Re: me working with someone else: I think that was him jumping on the fact that I had said "if we HAVE to work together..." (emphasis he heard, not my actual emphasis) 

You answered your own question here. He misread your tone, maybe you're misreading his. Or maybe he was being immature and snapped in an unhelpful way, but would take it back if you had a conversation when you're both calm. As a general rule, if up until now things have been good, and you independently know that he's stressed out with things that aren't about you, it might be best to simply wait this out. Everyone has more difficult times; he really should be better about handling it in front of students, but unfortunately he's not. It's up to you to decide if this is a deal-breaker and you want to work with someone else, or if you can let this go. But I think it's important that you not continue working with him and *not* let this go, because it'll impact your relationship in negative ways. It's okay to be upset and to take time to work things through, but at the end of the day, you have to find a way to move on. 

[St Andrews Lynx]

18 hours ago, dolcevita said:

My issue is his attitude/behavior, which has not been an issue in the past - I've known him for over a year, and we've always had a decent relationship - pretty friendly and casual, to the point that I had almost seen him sort of as a friend, and certainly someone that I could trust. 

Honestly, it does sound like you're over invested in this professional relationship. The dude is your boss, not your friend, and he doesn't owe you a particular emotional response. And yes, while you are important to him...you aren't necessarily the most important thing right now.

I can see how if your advisor was stressed by work, having his advisee go off on a heated tangent about feeling under-appreciated/how he should conduct his mentor-mentee relationships...would be exasperating. It doesn't mean that he did a good job of handling the situation, rather you should let it slide if you generally get on well. I doubt he meant it as a personal attack.

The relationship with my supervisor changed over the course of my PhD. They went from being hands-on (I'd see them on a daily basis) to hands-off (weeks without interactions). Sometimes people change as the nature of their responsibilities change...and you've got to adjust to that.

[dolcevita]

Thanks for your comments guys. Since my original post, I've had a few interactions with him (class, + small group meeting) and -unless I'm reading too much into his behavior - I feel like I'm in the doghouse. He's polite to me, but just polite, and he's considerably nicer/friendlier to everyone else. I think if this were just stress-related, he wouldn't be giving the cold shoulder to me alone, so I have to conclude that he's pushing me away b/c I confronted him.

On the one hand, I'm beyond irritated that a grown man can't take a constructive comment, and that he's turning out to be just another stereotypical egocentric professor who's spent a little too much time breathing the extra thin air up in the ivory tower and is living under the delusion that - since the system doesn't hold him accountable - he's exempt from the burden of human decency.

But I'm trying to come to terms with the reality that a) he is who he is, I can't change that; b ) if I want things to resolve things in such a way that we return to our status quo, I have to forgive him, even if he never apologizes (he won't). (c) If there's anything I've learned from this, it's that he's got an ego and I have to be nice to it. I met with my therapist today and he thought that maybe everything I had said to my advisor could have been perceived as me hinting at rejecting him, and so my advisor telling me "go work with someone else if you want to, my feelings won't be hurt" was maybe him preemptively rejecting me before I could reject him. Not sure how much I believe that, but the point he was making was that perhaps I should try to find a way to tell him that I appreciate/value everything he's done for me, so as to reassure him + get back on good terms w/ him. 

On 10/18/2017 at 2:26 PM, St Andrews Lynx said:

Honestly, it does sound like you're over invested in this professional relationship. The dude is your boss, not your friend, and he doesn't owe you a particular emotional response. 

I think I might be. I think I have that tendency. BUT, in my defense: pre-Cold War, we very much had a friends-ish relationship. If I met with him to talk about something academic, we'd literally spend 5 minutes on said matter, and then he'd change the subject and ask me a million questions about my personal life (not in a creepy, prying way..more in a "I think you're an interesting person and I like hearing about your life" kind of way). We had great rapport, we teased each other, we'd talk about life. But I'm kind of wondering now if this is all my fault...I accidentally started seeing him as a friend, and then mistakenly thought I could approach him as one and tell him when he's being a d-bag. :/  

[fuzzylogician]

8 minutes ago, dolcevita said:

But I'm kind of wondering now if this is all my fault...I accidentally started seeing him as a friend, and then mistakenly thought I could approach him as one and tell him when he's being a d-bag. :/  

This seems probably correct. He's not your friend -- he's your boss. Even if he's friendly and cares about you, that doesn't mean the relationship is equal. It's not. 

At this point, I would say, give it a bit more time. It's hard to know if what you're feeling is right, because you're also primed to see things this way now, given your latest interactions. If it does feel the same for longer, the best approach is probably the straightforward one. "Lately I feel like something isn't right. I wanted to bring this up because I value your support and want to continue working with you, so if something is wrong, I want to have a chance to make it right" or some such. No blame of any kind, just an opportunity to save face and go back to the previous status quo (or frankly, better yet, to a new status quo where the nature of the relationship between you is clearer). 

[dolcevita]

Yup, time is really the only thing I can count on for now. I'm giving it a month or so to let his plate clear up a bit, get some distance from him, and hopefully by then the situation will just fix itself. If not, I'll talk to him.

The only remaining issue is finding a way to not feel completely crushed and rejected every time he's cold towards me in the meantime. My eyes cannot take any more crying, and I cannot afford to be so distracted with my qualifying exams just around the corner.

[dolcevita]

So, an update. The gist: one problem (sort of) resolved, another one emerges.

I'm applying for jobs b/c I'm expecting to be ABD soon, and I recently came across a job with an upcoming deadline. Long story short, I had to ask my advisor for a rec. letter, and I was pleasantly surprised to get an email from him telling me that he'd write it for me (despite his telling me he'd be way too busy for anything these next few weeks). Hooray! He's busy/possibly still mad at me, but not enough to deny me a job opp! And in an attempt to further break the ice, I acknowledged his email after class today and made a playful peace offering: As a thank you, I promised not to come w/in 10 feet of his office for the next month or so. "Good," he told me, looking all  at me.

So things are thawing out a bit...only now a new issue w/ him has emerged. I was chatting w/ a friend/fellow grad student, and she told me, "So, some gossip: Dr. (advisor) told me that (name of semi-known scholar in our field) is actually applying for that job opening here, and Dr. (advisor) totally doesn't like him..."

I didn't really react in front of her, b/c...well, I'm on that job search committee as the grad student rep, but never told her or any of the other grad students about that...figured there was no point in telling them since most of my activity w/ the committee would be confidential anyway. 

But she's not supposed to know about who's applying! And I'm really annoyed, b/c my advisor had explicitly (and brusquely I might add) warned me NOT to share any info w/ others re: applicants, including who was applying, since it was (duh) confidential...and then he turns around and does that?? 

The logical, learn-from-recent-experiences, need-to-look-out-for-yourself side of my brain is telling me to just forget about it and let it go. Getting all "WTH YOU UNETHICAL HYPOCRITE" on him will not fix things, and only make things worse for me. But the ethical, diehard justice-seeker side of me is infuriated and wants to point out this breach in confidentiality.

My initial compromise is to maybe bring it up w/ him casually, but without mentioning my source's name, or that I knew it was him who said it, or even the name of the applicant in question, and say something like "Word has actually gotten out about who's applying for this job..doesn't matter who told me or how that person found out - it was harmless gossip after all - but maybe it needs to be reiterated among the committee that this info needs to remain confidential?"

That way, at least he knows he's caught, but w/out being confronted? Or is any mention at all too risky? 

Regardless, I just feel so disappointed with him. He was a superhero in my eyes when I first met him, but it's become increasingly apparent to me that he's not.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by dolcevita

[Eigen]

Going to be honest, it sounds like you're being really unfair to your advisor based off of your unrealistic view of them as a "superhero". 

You seem to be giving no allowances for humanity, and lashing out at them for perceived flaws that are perfectly normal. 

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

Ok, yeah, the situation sucks, but do not confront him about the breach. You're already on rocky footing, but he's writing you a rec letter so you might be able to get to a good working relationship again. Given how he's reacted to insinuation before (mainly jumping on the point that you are free to work with others instead of him) I would not bring up any accusations, even insinuations right now. I don't see how doing so will benefit you in any way nor will it reverse this breach. 

 

[fuzzylogician]

Yeah, It is not your job to police your advisor. Don't confront him, because absolutely nothing good can come of it, and it's not your place anyway. Move on. You'll also learn soon enough that everyone gossips about everything. Nothing is a secret, least of all personal feuds like that and/or anything to do with jobs. 

You need to get more realistic about your expectations from your advisor.

1 hour ago, dolcevita said:

He was a superhero in my eyes when I first met him, but it's become increasingly apparent to me that he's not.  

OF COURSE he's not. Stop judging him based off of unrealistic criteria that no human can meet, and maybe this advising relationship can be salvaged. Frankly I'm kind of surprised that you managed to get to be ABD and go on the job market without realizing that academics are flawed humans just like everyone else <gasp!>. 

[TakeruK]

I know we're in different fields, but just to add: job applications, especially at the faculty stage, are pretty much an "open secret". One very reliable way to figure out who is being considered is to just look at the invited seminars/colloquium speakers list by the host department. If there's a search going on, the invited speakers coming within a few months from the deadline are likely the shortlisted candidates. Especially if there are some "special" seminars scheduled outside of the regular schedule.

In addition, there are open wikis like this: http://www.astrobetter.com/wiki/Rumor+Mill+2015-2016+Faculty-Staff (I linked to the faculty/staff version from a previous year but there is one for this year plus a version for postdoc positions too).

So, I don't think the breach is that serious and it's not like everything needs to be 100% secret/confidential. In my opinion, the part of a job search that actually needs to be confidential are 1) the deliberations/discussions of candidates and 2) the candidates current employers should not be told. If their current employer hears about it through the grapevine, it's not as much of a big deal since it's just heresay/rumors.

Finally, unless you have been told specifically otherwise, I think you should tell your fellow grad students that you are the grad student rep on the committee. Again, unless you are tasked differently, generally the grad student rep is supposed to represent the grad student opinion, which you cannot do unless you talk to your "constituents". One common thing is for the grad student rep to let people know they are the rep and have some way for people to provide comments/thoughts (either anonymously or not). At this stage, you might want to collect general thoughts/priorities from grad students. That said, remember that grad students will probably have very little influence, but if they invited you on the committee, then they want to hear the student perspective, so you might as well provide it. Later on, the short listed candidates will probably visit and meet with students so you might be expected to aggregate student feedback about the top X candidates and present them to the committee. So if you have a good working relationship with your colleagues now, you can be sure they are comfortable telling you their true feelings later. You have a tough job though because you're the "messenger" target. If the faculty don't like the student opinions, they will see it come from you. And if the students find that their opinions didn't agree with the committee, you'll be the point person. So being clear that you are speaking on behalf of many students, not your own opinion and being clear about your role on the committee to set proper expectations might be a good idea.

Note: That last paragraph was solely on my experience with search committees in my field, which can be very different. Before you do anything, be sure to ask the committee chair about your actual role. Since you said grad student "rep", I went with that, but if they really just want your own personal professional opinion then that's different.

[dolcevita]

I was thinking about everything I had just posted earlier, and I had a bit of an epiphany re: the hero worshiping tendency and that I was being kind of harsh on my advisor. I mean, I still think he could be a better communicator, and I still think his preemptive lecturing me re: the job applicants' confidentiality and then turning around and doing exactly what he told me not to do is sucky. But I have admittedly set my bar incredibly high where he's concerned, and as a result I just set myself up for perpetual disappointment, instead of just letting things slide as I would with others. Anyway, came on here to say all that, but can see that my comments are superfluous.

Thanks @ TakeruK for the additional insight re: committee. To be honest, they didn't tell my anything about my role on the committee, except to keep all candidate info confidential. I'll definitely tell the others about my position if it is my job to represent their opinions; will need to get clarification on that from my advisor (he's the committee chair...naturally.)

[Sigaba]

On 10/17/2017 at 4:53 PM, dolcevita said:

I just don't know what to do at this point. Am I overreacting? He said as much. A few of the TAs I confided in don't think so (and acknowledge that he's been a bit of a jerk lately for some weird reason). If I am blowing this out of proportion, I definitely want to know. If I'm right to be upset...what should I do? I'm set to take my qualifying exams in a few weeks and am reluctant to wreak havoc w/ my committee setup. I have one other professor that I think I trust enough to talk to, but I'm not sure what she can do. I feel like my best option is to just deal with this the best I can so I can get the h. out of here with my phd...but I don't know how much of this I can take. I'm definitely not one to keep my mouth shut if I'm upset about something..but maybe that's something I need to learn to do?

Help!! I don't get to see my therapist for at least a few days, lol. Please and thank you.

Based upon your comments, I think that you are at least an equal partner in the deterioration of your relationship with this professor. I think that the pressure of your impending qualifying exams may be exacerbating things. 

I recommend that you focus on your qualifying exams. Until you're finished with the exams, treat everything you can as a matter of secondary or tertiary importance. After passing your exams, do what you can to find time to rest and to heal.

After the holidays, think about grabbing a cup of coffee with this professor. If you're so inclined, look at him as he's taking a nice sip of coffee and say something along the lines of "FUCKING QUALS." If you time it right, he'll need a napkin. If you time it perfectly, coffee will come out of his nose.

Once the dust and spraying beverage settle, have a mend-the-fences conversation. 

An observation. Over the last week or so, there have been some posts in which members of this BB have expressed varying levels of distress, disappointment, hurt, or anger over a relationship with an academic. Some of the remarks suggest feelings of betrayal at a fundamental level as "good" or "strong" relationships, even friendships, seem to crash and burn in short order for unknown reasons. In many situations, the only indications of things going south are odd looks, curt comments, unanswered email messages, uncommunicative replies, or deepening silences.

A recommendation. If the previous paragraph resonates, give serious consideration to the possibility that you have badly misunderstood the nature of your relationship with the person in question. There's a certain intimacy between a student seeking advanced knowledge and trusted, established practitioners that can be misinterpreted as friendship. But here's the thing. In all but the rarest circumstances, you and the professor whom you like the most, trust the most, and has taught you the most is not your friend. At least not yet. By placing the expectations of friendship upon a professor without a clear invitation, you are crossing established personal and professional boundaries. And you are placing yourself in varying degrees of peril. (Not for nothing do I address professors by their first name with great reluctance.)

Ultimately , each person, through trial and error and even unrecoverable error (BTDT) has to figure out how to navigate successfully relationships with professors and other persons of power and authority in the Ivory Tower. Some of the established members of this BB describe the relationship in terms of a boss and a worker. Others speak of the relationship between an established professional and a colleague in training. Yet even the most elegant and articulate formulations by the wisest members of this BB capture but a part of the whole. However, one feature that the different approaches share in common is the hard won understanding and acceptance that the bonds between students and professors, as strong as they may be, do not constitute "friendship." At least not yet.

 

 

 

[TakeruK]

5 hours ago, dolcevita said:

I still think his preemptive lecturing me re: the job applicants' confidentiality and then turning around and doing exactly what he told me not to do is sucky.

Here's another perspective:

As the committee chair and a faculty member, he can take way more liberties with these things than you can, as a graduate student. He might have decided that he wanted to impress the need for confidentially on you because he might have thought you were not familiar with the committee rules. Also, if you break confidentiality, it would be much worse for you than it would be for him. And it would probably be bad for him too as he is your advisor. 

In this perspective, it doesn't excuse the fact that he revealed a name that he shouldn't have. But in this perspective, it's not about you. Just something to consider too.

[St Andrews Lynx]

17 hours ago, dolcevita said:

Thanks @ TakeruK for the additional insight re: committee. To be honest, they didn't tell my anything about my role on the committee, except to keep all candidate info confidential. I'll definitely tell the others about my position if it is my job to represent their opinions; will need to get clarification on that from my advisor (he's the committee chair...naturally.)

My understanding is that confidentiality applies to (i) what is in the applicant files (content of statements, proposals and rec letters) (ii) what the committee members have said about the candidates ("X is our top choice"/"Y has some red flags in their rec letters") during the decision-making process (iii) who has received a formal offer (prior to them accepting/declining it). The political stuff, which I agree should be kept quiet. 

More general information - which could be in the public domain already - I suspect is less confidential. It could be well known that this scholar is on the market and has been public about applying for your school. You also don't know what exactly your boss said to this grad student, and what the grad student inferred/misheard/assumed (they might be guessing that your boss doesn't like this scholar). 

You seem to be over-responding to a minor event. Your supervisor didn't go maliciously leak intel to this other grad student to undermine you. Even if he did...you can't let every slight in academia reduce you to a crying wreck. 

[Eigen]

12 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Here's another perspective:

As the committee chair and a faculty member, he can take way more liberties with these things than you can, as a graduate student. He might have decided that he wanted to impress the need for confidentially on you because he might have thought you were not familiar with the committee rules. Also, if you break confidentiality, it would be much worse for you than it would be for him. And it would probably be bad for him too as he is your advisor. 

In this perspective, it doesn't excuse the fact that he revealed a name that he shouldn't have. But in this perspective, it's not about you. Just something to consider too.

I want to second this. 

Rules for students are not always the same as rules for faculty. And for most faculty searches, it's not breaking confidentiality to talk about people who applied. It's relatively rare to have "closed searches" in academia, and they're usually limited to administrative positions or poaching senior hires. 

That said, it's usually common to give students on search committees a lot stricter rules (don't talk about anything) because they're less likely to have been through HR training about exactly what parts are and aren't confidential- and are a lot less likely to be able to deal with the consequences if something goes wrong (i.e., lawsuit).