Calgacus

My take on the "nontraditional" student thing is that maybe it's not so much about what you do in between, but rather for how long? While the ethics of this are certainly questionable, I have heard faculty talk about how it can be difficult to make funded offers to older students because the investment isn't as much in the grad school's favor. If you think about it, schools are providing 5+ years of funding and tuition remission with the (less than realistic) expectation that people will graduate, get good jobs, and have a full career of publishing, etc. to boost the reputation of the school they graduated from. I guess it's harder to make the argument if schools don't think applicants will have a full career after the already lengthy time it takes to do the phd? Again, this is just an anecdotal thing that I've heard mentioned in passing and may very well be untrue. Obviously, it's not really fair and seems to be along the lines of age discrimination, so it might be hard to get anyone to actually admit that this is a consideration. But if you do apply again, maybe emphasizing your career aspirations post-degree might combat any potential for this concern? I'd be curious to hear whether others have heard much talk about this from faculty or other grad students? Hopefully you'll all tell me that I'm completely off the mark, which would make a (small) dent in improving my opinions about the institutional administration of higher ed.

@angesradieux Just want to point out that often, the most important (i.e., telling) meet-and-greets at recruitment events are often with other grad students, rather than the faculty themselves. Of course, it's important to try to see how you vibe with your potential advisor, but the events with current grad students are where you'll really be able to get a sense of the program/department's actual culture (to the extent that such a thing is popular during a recruitment event where everyone's job is to convince you that X place is the best place you could possibly be). Talk to students about classes, note their reactions when you tell them who your POI is--fellow advisees, of course, but I've found non-advisees can provide interesting information as well. Students will also be the ones to talk to about the transportation/accessibility issues you mentioned, how livable the stipend is, etc. etc. I know recruitment is crazy and there's so much focus on faculty advisors, but I just wanted to stress the sometimes over-looked treasure trove of info that current grad students can provide. Anyway, congrats on having options!

I just want to point out that I think that site does not stipulate as to whether placements are full time or not. Therefore, there's no way to know what percentage of those placements listed as "teaching" are full-time tenure track jobs vs. part-time adjunct work. Placement stats are absolutely important, but just be aware of what they're actually telling you (or not). For those of you going to recruitment events, the Graduate Directors will have a whole pitch where they talk up their placement record. Be sure to ask them about how many of those placements were full-time tenure track jobs (if that's what you're interested in having). They absolutely have those numbers, or they should, but some departments may be less forthcoming about the distinction. All "teaching" jobs are not alike.

Oh, come on. I was in no way condescending or judgmental, and even said that I didn't care what NCAtlanticist's politics were. All I said was that using the term "snowflake" in regards to academics, while pursing a career in academia, is not going to be incredibly well received. In my experience, the culture of higher education is decidedly left-leaning. Stating that is not snobbery. If you feel that's not true, you're welcome to disagree, and that wouldn't be snobby either. I did not tell them not to enter academia, or to change their political beliefs (whatever they are), or anything else. And before you go raising the banner for Southerners, I'm a Virginian and my partner is a North Carolinian, so I am not some yankee chastising "the South" (whatever that means anymore). My reference to their location was because I don't know the specific political culture at ECU, which is the major university I know of in Greenville. It was not a blanket statement about the South or whatever region you're rallying to defend. I apologize if I was not clear on that front. NCAtlanticist used a very specific, Trumpian term that was created to belittle millennials and promote anti-intellectualism, both of which seem to run counter to a career in academia. I was compelled to point out the derogatory connotation of the term, which NCAtlanticist has already said he/she stands behind. He/she made a personal, politically-charged attack against @Sigaba because they didn't like his/her advice. I stated that in my experience that behavior was unprofessional and wouldn't go over super well, but again, you are more than welcome to disagree with me on that.

@NCAtlanticist I just want to say, given your use of Trumpian language and your location, that this kind of attitude is not going to be very well received in most places in academia. This is not meant to start a political debate, but is merely stating a fact about the culture of the profession you're seeking entry into. On a side note, it is often not professionally productive to personally berate those who are more experienced in your field, such as @Sigaba, when they are offering free advice. This is rule of thumb is applicable to basically any profession, but is especially relevant to academia because it's so small and reputation-based. Congrats to all the admits so far!

If you've already been admitted to schools you know you'd rather go to, then you should absolutely let the third school know that they can remove you from the waitlist. IF you don't yet have a sense of where you'd prefer to go, and you think you might want to go to the waitlisted school, then just write back and tell them you'd like to keep your name in consideration. Do remember that school 3 is someone else's top choice. That doesn't mean you take your name off the list if you think you may like to go there, just because you feel guilty about taking spots from others. But if you've got admits to top choices and there's no way this school compares with those offers for you, then no reason to hold up a spot you know you'll turn down anyway. Rule of thumb is as soon as you know you won't be choosing a particular school, you should let them know too. And that applies for waitlist spots as well.

@SarahMoon This is a good answer. Also be sure to ask about semester fees (which are usually technology fees, gym fees, bus fee, etc. etc.). Some schools include this in their funding packages with their tuition waiver, stipend, and health insurance, but be advised that several don't. Be sure to ask ahead of time when making your decision so you don't get surprised with it later. Student fees are often $500-$1000. Let us know if you have any more specific questions. The best way to find out whether your stipend is livable in a specific area is to ask the current grad students at your visit day (or ask on here). But be specific when you ask them. People choose to prioritize different things with their stipends. Some are willing to have much less spending money in order to get a nicer apartment (or to live alone), while others will room with 4 people in order to have much more spending cash, so try to get a sense of each person's spending lifestyle when you ask them.

What @telkanuru says here is spot on. And I don't think it's meant to be accusatory or pessimistic about your life choices. It's just a reality that is the more accurate answer/reframing to your initial question. @Janeway01 I would also gently advise against buying in too fully about what a terminal MA will provide in the way of job prospects. I had a terminal MA, and while it was not from a high prestige program, it was a traditional program from a major state school that was fully funded. I assumed that this would qualify me for more teaching jobs (with higher guaranteed pay), museum/public history jobs, federal jobs, and higher ed admin jobs. I can tell you that in my experience, it barely earned me a single interview in each of those fields, let alone a job. The state of the over-saturated academic market means that many PhDs are settling for community college jobs, and increasingly looking to break into "alt-ac" fields like the others mentioned. This means that someone with an MA must then compete with both PhDs (who have more specialized education) and BAs (who have less education but have gained a couple years full time experience and networking by being in the workforce instead of in school). Personally, I found there was little room to make my MA shine given the competition. Ultimately I ended up going back for the PhD, which I had sort of intended all along. But the fact that I struggled so much finding a solid career with my MA sped up that process a bit. Like I said, I don't say this to be negative. I just think terminal M.A.'s really oversell their marketability, particularly those that are unfunded and are looking to make tuition money. And of course this doesn't mean that nobody with an MA will find a job. I would just caution that for as awful as the academic job market is, the market in "alt-ac" fields like those you mention are not vast improvements. It sounds like you're already working and have been assured of a raise if you get your MA, which is nice. But if you plan on changing careers, it would be helpful to do as much networking and as many internships as you possibly can while your in your MA. Chances are those will be vastly more helpful on the market than whatever title they put on your degree. If you're interested, here's a controversial article that the Chronicle ran last year. It has it's flaws, to be sure, and I don't think it should really be taken literally. But I think it's worth a look. Best of luck with your degree and your future plans!

Omg, your post brought it to my attention and I just spent 30 minutes in the mess of this rabbit hole. If only OP had just titled this thread with what was really bugging him all along: "Make history great again????!?!"

I used two from my thesis committee, and then the DGS in my department. Though the DGS wasn't in my field, I thought she could speak directly to some of the factors admission committees might be looking for in a more meta way (considering she heads up the adcomm for the MA program). Things like TA work, professionalization, etc. Plus, my thesis committee members were relatively young, so the DGS could do a much broader assessment of how my capabilities compared to far more students. Plus, she got her Phd at one of my top choice schools, so I figured a rec from her wouldn't hurt! So there's some room for strategy here. I do, however, think that having your thesis *advisor* write is not optional. If they don't, I'd imagine any reasonable adcomm would wonder why.

Actually, this is precisely the expectation, and the norm. Though I ended up not being a Classicist, I double majored in Classics and History as an undergrad. Any student looking to do a PhD on the Ancient world (whether in a History department or a more interdisciplinary Classics department) would almost certainly have at least an intermediate proficiency in both Latin and Greek before they enter the program. As @telkanuru mentioned, most of these students will have started languages in high school, but some will have picked them up in undergrad. I second the advice that if you are a freshman or sophomore and this is really the path you want, then double down on the language classes right away and make them a priority. The great thing about Latin and Greek courses is that in order to learn the languages, you'll end up reading a lot of historical and literary sources from that era, so you'll be both developing the necessary language skills and expanding your exposure to the history and culture of that era. It's very different than a modern language class, which is aimed much more at being able to use it in contemporary society (i.e., you'll almost definitely read Cicero and Sophocles in your Classical language courses, but you most likely would not read Dumas or "Song of Roland" in a traditional French language class). You may be able to find some MA programs in Classics that would help you make up ground on the languages, but I'm not not sure many would be funded. Good luck!

To add to this list of reasons for contacting a POI: Even if someone is not retiring, they may not be taking students during your application cycle. This doesn't seem very uncommon, so it's good to know in advance. For example, I wrote to POI at one of my top choice programs, and while she was interested in my work, she told me that she was going to be away at the archives on leave during what would be my first year, so she wasn't taking any students that year (she also emphasized the importance of having your advisor in residence for at least the first two years of your program). Thanks to this info, I saved the money and time I would've spent on that application--though I did hate taking one of my top pick programs off my list! Anyway, I think it's always reasonable (and responsible!) to not only ask whether they're into your research, but also whether they're taking students in your cycle. Good luck all!

This. As TMP says, summer is the ONLY time faculty have for themselves and their own work/life. This is likely the reason why you didn't hear back. For those of you applying for this cycle, I would not start emailing POIs until late September at the earliest. If you think about faculty schedules, summer is their own time, and then by mid August through September they're dealing with starting new courses and the stress of a new semester. Since the earliest deadlines for applications are Dec. 1, it seems reasonable to be aware of their schedules and hold off until the semester settles down. I think I emailed my POIs in mid October. Of course, there's always a possibility that you won't get a response despite the timing of the email. Then you have two options. (1) give them the benefit of the doubt and try again with the hope that maybe your message just fell through the inbox cracks on a busy day, or (2) decide that a lack of response is just as informative as if you'd gotten one. Perhaps it's meant to be a deliberate hint that they're not interested, but more likely it shows that they're very busy with other things, not easily accessible, and maybe that's not the kind of person you want to work with. Good to find these things out before you pay the application and GRE-sending fees!

Many thanks, @rising_star. Sometimes I foolishly forget to spend much time looking at the threads beyond the History forum. Thanks for the link And @Sigaba, thanks for the tip. Your example questions are really interesting ones that I hadn't really considered in that framework before. It usually seems like a focus on "what do I need to know," but it makes sense that it would be equally useful--if not more so!--to determine/recognize what I *don't* need to know.

Does anyone have any other general advice for those of us going into our first year in the Phd? Things you would've liked to have known when starting out? Things to be aware of that we might not be anticipating? Whether regarding classes, advisors/faculty, cohort, etc. Any tidbits or pearls of wisdom would be much appreciated!

Well, my initial thoughts are 1) it's hard to assess your decision without knowing what your other options were/are, and 2) if you're being funded for the MA through guaranteed TA-ships, it's pretty easy to look at it as a good decision, and is something you could highlight in future PhD apps as the reason to go to this program as opposed to maybe an MA program with a hotshot civil war historian but that's unfunded. Obviously, the ideal situation would be to find one that offers both things, and I think there are several of those out there. But as long as it's fully funded, it can only be so bad of a decision. Of course, it also depends on your research interests. You say there are several military historians and some 19th c. Americanists--are you wanting to do research in Civil War military history? If so, you're probably fine. But if you were looking to do something different (social, cultural, environmental, etc. history of the Civil War era), it may be a bit more of a reach. It all depends on what you want to do and what the faculty in your program do. But overall, this stuff doesn't matter as much for an MA, especially if it's funded. You can bone up your research skills and then if you decide to apply for PhD's you'll just have to talk with your MA advisors about how best to spin your MA experiences in a way that best helps your application.

I did this the first time I applied to PhD programs directly out of my BA. I used a research paper I'd written for a senior seminar class that was far more polished than the undergraduate thesis I was still working on at the time. However, the seminar paper was in neither in the geographical or chronological area that I was applying to work in for grad school. I didn't end up getting into any PhD programs that year. I ended up doing a terminal masters and when I applied for PhD's again this round I used a chapter from my finished M.A. thesis. It still wasn't exactly what I wanted to do--because if it was, that'd mean I'd already done what I wanted and so what's the point of doing it again?--but it was FAR closer to what I was applying to work on at the doctoral level and generally representative of my geographical, chronological, and thematic interests. Of my top two choices I got into one and waitlisted at the other. Of course, it's always hard to say what exactly ends up making the difference between admission and rejection, and obviously I was a better candidate overall after doing an M.A. But my new advisor specifically told me when he first met me that my writing sample was what really caught his eye, so I think there's something to be said for sending something as close as possible to what you're applying to work on. After all, it's no surprise that potential advisors would have more interest reading papers related to their own work during an admissions process. For example, if you're applying to work on Early Modern Germany, it makes sense that the Early Modern Germanist you want to work with would be more interested reading a paper roughly in that area than one about Cold War America. Even if they're both equally well written and researched, I suppose it's only reasonable when reading so many applications that they'd take closer looks at topics in their area. Anyway, that's just my anecdotal two cents!

I used Scrivener for my 150-page MA thesis as well! You're right, it really helps make writing a big project so much more manageable. Plus having all my PDF'ed primary sources in it and being able to split-screen them with my writing was so helpful. I just found Scrivener so helpful in keeping the project organized and feeling more accomplished by knocking out small chunks at a time. Glad to see I'm not alone on this!

Any other advice out there about what people are doing/recommend doing in the summer prior to starting the PhD to prepare?

This is a great trick to ease yourself into cutting things. It sometimes even helps to first move semi-extraneous points down to the footnotes, because then in becomes easier to cut footnotes out in a second read-through. But as @SunshineLolipops says, create a new document called "scrap" or something and put the things you cut there. You could end up wanting a line back from it, or it could become useful later if this paper is relevant to your thesis/dissertation/broader project. Or, at the very least, it allows you to visually see just how much you're able to cut, which sometimes makes the more concise end product feel like more of an accomplishment. Good luck!

I agree with telkanuru's 10% rule. That seems reasonable. Having taught undergrad for several years, I can say the "tricks" are incredibly obvious, because a professor is grading a whole stack of papers, so one with funky margins or fonts immediately sticks out. When I found those, I tended to find it a bit insulting, since it suggested the student thought it was clever and would be getting away with something without me realizing...which they obviously weren't. This is why I quickly switched to word counts, rather than page numbers. I realize teaching undergrad vs. grad classes is very different, but that's just my experience. I would go with the 10% rule, but if you're really confident about your work that it's well done and there's nothing to cut, I'd probably just own it with the regular formatting. Otherwise, it's sending the message that you're trying to trick them and that you think you're doing something wrong. Also, if you feel like the prof didn't give a lot of guidelines, you could always just email them to ask how rigid the page limit is. Then at least you don't have to wonder whether it's a big deal or not.

I was hoping someone would start a "summer" topic. I know this is about summer generally, but I'd love to hear advice about what people are doing/did do/recommend doing in the summer prior to beginning the phd specifically.

@tenemental Oops, didn't mean to jab at anyone's departments. I was just speaking based on things I've heard from people, but obviously everyone has different experiences, so I shouldn't have made such a sweeping statement. Those are top programs for a reason, of course!

Thanks all for your feedback. It's what I expected to hear, but I still just find it a bit strange that for as much as people talk about rank, there's not actually a hard and fast yearly ranking system for history (as there seems to be in some other fields). And of course the other irony is that at least half of those top 8 departments are notorious for having toxic cultures. Oh well. Hope everyone made it out of this year's cycle without too many new gray hairs!

@SunshineLolipops Have you asked the schools for an update? Surely that's a reasonable question. I sent a message like that this past week to a school I was waitlisted at before accepting another offer and they didn't seem bothered by it. In fact, he seemed happy that I was checking in.