emsmith

Hi all! 
I'm wondering if any current clinical psych PhD students (PsyD students also welcome to answer!) would mind sharing what their clinical skills classes are like? I have a masters in a different psych subject so I'm familiar with research methods courses, but I'm wondering practically what it's like to attend the clinical classes and what types of skills you learn, what the lectures/classes practically look like, what assignments are like, etc?
I know most programs have adult / child psychopathology and assessment courses, and some practicums, etc. What does it look like like when you attend these classes/practicums? E.g. how many times/week do you attend these courses, do you attend lectures/read textbooks only, or are there other aspects to the in-class learning like roleplays etc? In what classes do you learn specific therapies (e.g. CBT or DBT etc) and which symptoms/disorders each therapy is best for? Do you feel that your classes prepared you for your placements etc?
It's hard to get an idea of what this aspect of the course looks like from the website/course listing alone, so I would appreciate any feedback of what your program looks like and how you feel about it (I'm applying in Canada, but I think a lot of the PhD programs are structured similarly, so I'm interested in hearing from people in US programs as well!) Thanks all! 
 

*Pain* but thanks for this info! 
Not to vent but if programs have internal deadlines of when rankings should be submitted, would it really kill schools to just be transparent and publish estimated timelines about interview invites on their website, so you don't have applicants waiting in the dark? Just being upfront by saying the dates are an estimate will allow us to know it may not be exact but to provide absolutely zero timelines seems unnecessary to me. Anyways venting over! 

omg this is ridiculous. Does anyone else feel like it's completely pointless to even apply??
I didn't apply to UTSC but I know a lot of programs will have similar numbers. I feel so discouraged by the stats. I know that I am a really good applicant and would do really well in clinical psych. I know it's hard, but I know I have the skills and background to do a good job. I've been working in research for years. I have more publications than many PhD students have when they finish their PhD. I have plenty of conference abstracts, and I've won awards for presentations. I know if I applied to a non-clinical PhD I would have very few problems getting in. And I'm not listing this to brag but my point is I know I am a capable researcher (as are all of you!) and it is absolutely insane that the odds are THIS small. I don't know how they even decide who gets interviewed. Nobody with a GPA less than 4? No less than 10 publications? I don't get it. 
Sorry for angry ranting, I don't mean to bring anyone down but holy moly these stats are discouraging. 

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

@SoundofSilenceYes yes yes!! you bring up so many important points.
This year has really shifted my thinking about what to expect from my future career. Still my number 1 goal is to become a clinical academic, but considering not only the difficulties getting in to a program, but the time it takes to complete, the abysmal work-life balance, the awful "pay" as a graduate student for 5-7 years, and the very real possibility that your supervisor could suck and you have zero support - it's going to suck it a lot of ways. Whereas a "regular" old non-clinical PhD will be done in 3 years, still have awful pay and potentially poor work-life balance, but fewer demands since there won't be clinical classes and placements etc. then you graduate sooner, get a real job sooner, and you can also work in industry and get paid significantly more than an academic or a clinician. Will you make the same impact with your work? No, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad route or you won't be able to help the population you're interested in working with. I've been trying to reframe a lot of things and accept that who knows, my career might not be what I want it to be now, but it could still be really good and exciting, once I figure out what that will be. 
Yes - so many real options. Especially the availability of primarily clinical training degrees. I know a lot of people who are not at all interested in conducting their own research. Sure they need to understand research and how to assess evidence based treatments, but do not need to have a PhD. Even increasing the number of terminal master's programs and where people can be licensed would be a huge step for people who are solely interested in careers as clinicians.  

omg this is ridiculous. Does anyone else feel like it's completely pointless to even apply??
I didn't apply to UTSC but I know a lot of programs will have similar numbers. I feel so discouraged by the stats. I know that I am a really good applicant and would do really well in clinical psych. I know it's hard, but I know I have the skills and background to do a good job. I've been working in research for years. I have more publications than many PhD students have when they finish their PhD. I have plenty of conference abstracts, and I've won awards for presentations. I know if I applied to a non-clinical PhD I would have very few problems getting in. And I'm not listing this to brag but my point is I know I am a capable researcher (as are all of you!) and it is absolutely insane that the odds are THIS small. I don't know how they even decide who gets interviewed. Nobody with a GPA less than 4? No less than 10 publications? I don't get it. 
Sorry for angry ranting, I don't mean to bring anyone down but holy moly these stats are discouraging. 

@SoundofSilenceYes yes yes!! you bring up so many important points.
This year has really shifted my thinking about what to expect from my future career. Still my number 1 goal is to become a clinical academic, but considering not only the difficulties getting in to a program, but the time it takes to complete, the abysmal work-life balance, the awful "pay" as a graduate student for 5-7 years, and the very real possibility that your supervisor could suck and you have zero support - it's going to suck it a lot of ways. Whereas a "regular" old non-clinical PhD will be done in 3 years, still have awful pay and potentially poor work-life balance, but fewer demands since there won't be clinical classes and placements etc. then you graduate sooner, get a real job sooner, and you can also work in industry and get paid significantly more than an academic or a clinician. Will you make the same impact with your work? No, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad route or you won't be able to help the population you're interested in working with. I've been trying to reframe a lot of things and accept that who knows, my career might not be what I want it to be now, but it could still be really good and exciting, once I figure out what that will be. 
Yes - so many real options. Especially the availability of primarily clinical training degrees. I know a lot of people who are not at all interested in conducting their own research. Sure they need to understand research and how to assess evidence based treatments, but do not need to have a PhD. Even increasing the number of terminal master's programs and where people can be licensed would be a huge step for people who are solely interested in careers as clinicians.  

@SoundofSilenceYes yes yes!! you bring up so many important points.
This year has really shifted my thinking about what to expect from my future career. Still my number 1 goal is to become a clinical academic, but considering not only the difficulties getting in to a program, but the time it takes to complete, the abysmal work-life balance, the awful "pay" as a graduate student for 5-7 years, and the very real possibility that your supervisor could suck and you have zero support - it's going to suck it a lot of ways. Whereas a "regular" old non-clinical PhD will be done in 3 years, still have awful pay and potentially poor work-life balance, but fewer demands since there won't be clinical classes and placements etc. then you graduate sooner, get a real job sooner, and you can also work in industry and get paid significantly more than an academic or a clinician. Will you make the same impact with your work? No, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad route or you won't be able to help the population you're interested in working with. I've been trying to reframe a lot of things and accept that who knows, my career might not be what I want it to be now, but it could still be really good and exciting, once I figure out what that will be. 
Yes - so many real options. Especially the availability of primarily clinical training degrees. I know a lot of people who are not at all interested in conducting their own research. Sure they need to understand research and how to assess evidence based treatments, but do not need to have a PhD. Even increasing the number of terminal master's programs and where people can be licensed would be a huge step for people who are solely interested in careers as clinicians.  

You’re basically voicing out what everyone else feels and you’re absolutely right to be frustrated! This is my third time applying and I haven’t received an offer yet, despite getting interviews. When I show my CV to my coworkers and supervisors they all swear up and down that I’d be a perfect fit for their program, but once admission cycles roll around, I end up not getting selected even though I have several publications and conference presentations and I know almost everyone here is on the same boat. I’ve had supervisors who told me they rejected someone over a single word in their letter of interest because it  rubbed them the wrong way. It is truly a lottery draw and no one is winning.
 
 
 

Honestly you wouldn't want to work with a person that does that anyway. I know many of us sometimes say we would do almost anything to get into a program, but spending the next 5-6-whatever years working and depending on someone like that is a nightmare, and not worth it.

Agreed! Imagine having to rely on someone who’s that inflexible. Getting matched with a supervisor who doesn’t have your best interest at heart would guarantee a miserable grad experience. Too bad you can’t always tell who the reasonable ones are before it’s too late.  

I just told this to another poster on here, who is more mature and has more experience - sometimes having more experience and/or another grad degree is seen as getting in the way of how "trainable" you are. 
Also - the exploitation of grad students happens all over the planet in many fields. Not that it's right, but we definitely need some different form of accountability for faculty, especially since very few of us now can follow the academic path. By the time many of us get our PhD, there will be very few tenure-track places as it is, so the current system is basically training PhDs for jobs that won't really exist in the future (except for a lucky few).
It's not just about the funding. Although the funding is also a burden on students. It's the whole "apprenticeship-model". Sure, you get some benefits from being mentored one-on-one, but only if you have a good PI, if they have the time and if they have the resources to support your work. So many ifs. The reality is most clinical students will be in mostly clinical roles, and even the clinical researchers could benefit from other types of mentorship. How about having a group of faculty mentor in rotation multiple students, so that we can increase a little class size? Or dedicated clinical mentors that can supervise more people, with less research expected of that faculty member? I realize practicums are limited in how many people they can train, but having increased class sizes would alleviate the problem in time and also bring more services to the people that need them. Also, the availability of a different type of doctoral degree (such as a PsyD) might be more in line with the training needed to obtain good clinical psychologists and free up the strain on PhD programs.

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

omg this is ridiculous. Does anyone else feel like it's completely pointless to even apply??
I didn't apply to UTSC but I know a lot of programs will have similar numbers. I feel so discouraged by the stats. I know that I am a really good applicant and would do really well in clinical psych. I know it's hard, but I know I have the skills and background to do a good job. I've been working in research for years. I have more publications than many PhD students have when they finish their PhD. I have plenty of conference abstracts, and I've won awards for presentations. I know if I applied to a non-clinical PhD I would have very few problems getting in. And I'm not listing this to brag but my point is I know I am a capable researcher (as are all of you!) and it is absolutely insane that the odds are THIS small. I don't know how they even decide who gets interviewed. Nobody with a GPA less than 4? No less than 10 publications? I don't get it. 
Sorry for angry ranting, I don't mean to bring anyone down but holy moly these stats are discouraging. 

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

it is! a total lottery! I feel like the chances of winning the lottery are actually higher! 
You sound like an amazing applicant!! Yeah, there are other paths that are rewarding and challenging and that we can be successful in. I think I will apply one more year since I'm finishing a few courses to improve my transcripts and it feels like a waste if I don't apply again, but next year I think I will at the same time apply for non-clinical programs as well. 
Thanks so much everyone for agreeing - it makes me feel a lot better to know that other people think this is super F-ed up.  
I totally agree about some supervisors taking student for the "wrong" reasons - I had a conversation with someone as well about people taking younger and more naive students in order to basically mould them into research minions who will be less willing to set boundaries and prioritize their own projects (and mental health) in order to get ahead on other grants projects etc. I had one friend whose supervisor told her she should be writing up her PhD in her "spare" time, and doing unpaid research work full time instead. 
I have no idea what the solution is. I mean, I guess an increase in funding for more training spots, but seriously, if UTSC is getting $75,000+ from application fees alone, they can afford to pay a few more students their measly PhD stipend. I think the whole system needs to be destroyed and start again. We desperately need more mental health professionals, and there is a desperate need for psych research funding too, but where either of these things will come from I have no idea. 
 

It IS ridiculous and your "rant" is totally justified. As it stands right now, there are many MANY applicants that already have the skills and experience to hit the ground running in grad school and so very few places. I am aware that there are a few that just apply to give it a try, but my own personal experience tells me there are few and far between, because the reputation of competitiveness has reached most psych students. 
It doesn't help that in many cases it's up to the very specific whims of faculty members who may have other priorities when picking students. I realize that there are many great POIs there, I am not talking about them. But I've met quite a few who prioritize taking only students that want to follow their specific niche academic path, or who bring specific skills in their lab because they are chasing some grants, or some other self-serving goal. And in turn, our profession loses out on many qualified candidates that could have done the research and clinical work much needed by under-served communities and improved the mental health for so many people in the country...
I've been thinking what could be done to change this and to be honest I haven't come up with anything. But something has to change. I am committed to giving my feedback and putting effort into changing the admissions process but I have yet to come up with other more specific ways to help. What do you think?

I completely understand how you are feeling. 4.00 GPA, 5 conference presentations, 2 publications, and I have been working in clinical research for 2 years and I haven't even received an interview invite this cycle despite research interests aligning closely.
This truly is the most frustrating experience. As others have shown on this thread, consistency does pay off, but I think this is my last time applying if I am unsuccessful.

I feel EXACTLY the same way- honestly it feels like a lottery system sometimes! The stats are definitely discouraging, it really sucks

omg this is ridiculous. Does anyone else feel like it's completely pointless to even apply??
I didn't apply to UTSC but I know a lot of programs will have similar numbers. I feel so discouraged by the stats. I know that I am a really good applicant and would do really well in clinical psych. I know it's hard, but I know I have the skills and background to do a good job. I've been working in research for years. I have more publications than many PhD students have when they finish their PhD. I have plenty of conference abstracts, and I've won awards for presentations. I know if I applied to a non-clinical PhD I would have very few problems getting in. And I'm not listing this to brag but my point is I know I am a capable researcher (as are all of you!) and it is absolutely insane that the odds are THIS small. I don't know how they even decide who gets interviewed. Nobody with a GPA less than 4? No less than 10 publications? I don't get it. 
Sorry for angry ranting, I don't mean to bring anyone down but holy moly these stats are discouraging. 

omg this is ridiculous. Does anyone else feel like it's completely pointless to even apply??
I didn't apply to UTSC but I know a lot of programs will have similar numbers. I feel so discouraged by the stats. I know that I am a really good applicant and would do really well in clinical psych. I know it's hard, but I know I have the skills and background to do a good job. I've been working in research for years. I have more publications than many PhD students have when they finish their PhD. I have plenty of conference abstracts, and I've won awards for presentations. I know if I applied to a non-clinical PhD I would have very few problems getting in. And I'm not listing this to brag but my point is I know I am a capable researcher (as are all of you!) and it is absolutely insane that the odds are THIS small. I don't know how they even decide who gets interviewed. Nobody with a GPA less than 4? No less than 10 publications? I don't get it. 
Sorry for angry ranting, I don't mean to bring anyone down but holy moly these stats are discouraging. 

So I did email UTSC re: formal interviews and here is the response. It doesn't sound hopeful to me. Here it goes:
"Thank you for your email and interest in the Clinical Psychology program at the University of Toronto Scarborough.
Successful applicants will be contacted directly by the email and/or telephone number on your application if you are selected for an interview. Please note that we had over 600 applicants for the 2022-23 admissions cycle for only 5 spots in our program. The first round of our prospective student interviews are being held virtually from February 14 – 16, 2022. Only successful candidates will be contacted prior to interviews.
Final admission decisions will be circulated by end of March/ early April 2022."