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Everything posted by TakeruK
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I think both swisschocolate and Instigate are right for different reasons! It might be useful to look at the tables on page 23 of this: http://www.ets.org/s/gre/pdf/gre_guide.pdf. It shows the percentile score for each scaled score. This lets us know how many test takers scored in which range. In the ranges of scores 145-160, each scaled score point is between 3 to 5 percentile ranking. This means that every extra point earned means you just scored higher than a lot of people (e.g. if there were 1000 test takers, getting one more point puts you up 30 to 50 rankings higher). However, at the top level, say between 165-170, an extra scaled point is only 1-2 percentile rankings -- scoring higher only means you move up 10 or 20 spots in the overall rank. So, an extra point in the mid-ranges mean a lot more in terms of absolute ranking! Assuming that the pool of applicants to a certain school can be represented by the GRE score distribution (not perfect, especially not for the highest ranking schools), this means that if a school was ranking the profiles by GRE scores, having an extra point in the mid ranges is more likely to move your application upwards on the pile than an extra point at the 165+ level. This makes sense -- if you scored, say 168, you're probably at the top of the pile, so having 169 doesn't really mean you'll move up. In addition, depending on program, some places treat GRE scores as a "cutoff". The cutoff would be nearer to the middle of the score ranges so having an extra point there might help you pass the cutoff, or come close enough so that they at least look at other factors. If you're 165+, you're well above the cutoff, so having more points won't really make a difference. So, in these practical respects, I think swisschocolate is right -- an extra 1 or 2 points might make a bigger difference to your outcome if you're in the mid-ranges instead of the high ranges. However, Instigate is also right in a different sense. In terms of ETS Test Taking Ability, scoring a 168 instead of 166 is much harder than scoring a 158 instead of 156. It's basically "diminishing returns" -- at the tails of the distribution, it's a lot harder to move upwards. In terms of "making a difference in admissions", I agree with swisschocolate. In terms of "difference between scores", Instigate is correct. With all that said, admissions are decided on much broader aspects of the application than just GRE scores!!
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It depends on the grad school application. However, almost all of the schools asked me to list ALL schools I've attended, even if I didn't earn a degree from them (e.g. I took some courses at a nearby University as a visiting student, with credit granted towards the degree at my home university). With this common phrasing, this means the answer to your questions are: 1. You will have to declare that you attended Medical School for one year but did not finish. 2. You will probably have to submit transcripts for ALL programs attended. For some schools, while they asked me to declare ALL programs attended, for American students, they only wanted transcripts from schools where I've earned a degree from. However, since I am an international student, I had to submit all of them anyways.
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If you have to pay extra to submit only one score, then don't do it. That is, your four free schools will probably receive all the scores (the default choice?) so don't do anything about them. However, for any additional scores, you will have to pay anyways and you get the opportunity to choose which score to send. Based on your program description as "Political Science", it sounds like Vocab score might be more important than Math, so maybe send the new scores instead? I don't think it's a bad thing to submit two scores that are relatively the same though! But if I was in your shoes, I'd do what I said above!
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I agree with juilletmercedi that it's definitely do-able and that it means a lot when your friend is by your side during the ceremony. My wife and I got married while I was at grad school for MSc in Canada and we were having the wedding in our hometown (3000+ miles away from where we were currently living) so that we were the ones traveling instead of everyone else. We had initially planned to fly home to visit friends/family about 3 times in the 2 year MSc program but in order to make the wedding work, we did all the traveling in the first year (before and during the wedding) and didn't fly home at all during the second year. PhD stipends aren't always so low that you only have enough to pay rent and buy food! So you are probably planning to visit your family at least one time between 2013 and March 2015 right? Maybe even two! Just make one of your (budgeted) trips home be for your friend's wedding. In addition, March might be Spring Break time depending on your school schedule and while grad students don't really get "Spring Break" off, most advisors and schools will recognize that grad students should get at least 2 weeks of vacation time a year (like any other job) and you will probably be able to take a few days, if not a whole week, off for the wedding. Our three main responsibilities are classes, TAing, and research. Missing classes is no big deal, you can usually find a friend to cover your TA shift and research can usually be made up before/after the trip. With enough advanced planning, even things like experiments can be scheduled around the trip! Doing a PhD is a full-time commitment like a full-time job is a full-time commitment. Most people will work between 40 and 60 hours a week, depending on their courseload, upcoming deadlines, etc. In addition, most PhD programs are fully funded, and you don't pay tuition (or your stipend is increased with this in mind). We definitely won't be able to live like our friends who went and got a "real job" instead of a graduate degree, but it is possible to save for a trip home over 2 years. Airfare should be covered/budgeted for if we plan to visit home anyways. Accommodation might not cost very much if we are visiting home for a friend's wedding. A bridesmaid dress is expensive, but the bride should recognize that her friend and maid-of-honour is a student who might not have a lot of funds and pick a dress that will be right for the budget! That said, it's still important that you talk to your friend now, and find out what she expects from you as a maid-of-honour. Like juilletmercedi said, you'd probably have time if she just wants you there for the ceremony and to plan whatever you can from a distance. Although my wife's maid of honour was in our hometown and my wife was across the country, we flew home a week before the wedding so that we can do some of the traditional wedding prep stuff with our maid-of-honour/best man to make up for the lost time while we were away! Also, my best man was actually in a PhD program in another country so I asked another one of my groomsmen to plan the bachelor party and do other in-town related tasks. So as long as everyone is clear on what their roles are expected to be, it should all work out! Grad school is a time where many of our friends (some in grad school, some aren't) are getting married. We can't be expected to shut ourselves off from people that we are close to just because we are pursuing a PhD. I have known many grad students who have flown somewhere to be at their friend's wedding, sometimes multiple times in one year! Luckily summer is the popular wedding season and the only demand on our time during summer is research!
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My resume was very similar to psychkita's template but I put awards before leadership things since I think heavily research-oriented fields like to see that you have a history of securing your own funding. But I think it depends on what you have to put in these sections and what schools you're applying to. If you have a lot more leadership experience in your professional life, that might be a stronger case for you! Here's my template, for what it's worth: 1. Education 2. Research Experience 3. Publications/Presentations 4. Academic awards/fellowships 5. Teaching Experience 6. Other (related) experiences -- I put things like outreach, student leadership, mentoring etc. here
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Does visiting a school first have any influence on admissions?
TakeruK replied to GwenWoods's topic in Interviews and Visits
I think it definitely makes a big difference. As others said, grad apps are all about finding the right fit, not just having the right grades/scores/skills (although this factors into fit). I didn't visit any schools before application, but at all of the schools I did get into, I found a connection before applying (meet with prof at a conference, meet with their students/post-docs, having a mutual friend/contact introduce you by email or write them to say "hey I heard Student X is applying to work with you and I think he'd be a good fit!" etc.) I would have only visited a school if I happened to be traveling through/near that area anyways! If there is a big conference that you're attending (even better, if you're presenting), then write up your POIs and ask if they will be there and suggest you meet up sometime! -
Personally, I think statements that involve citations belong more in a research proposal rather than a statement of purpose and that a SOP should not be a research statement or a research proposal. The reason is that in order to make a strong research statement/proposal, it takes a bit of writing and as Usmivka said, it makes your interests much more specific. If you don't spend the time (and space!) to fully develop your idea, then I don't think it's very useful to have a one-liner with a reference. In my SOP, I decided to keep it non-academic (i.e. not written like a journal article). I spent my words trying to convince the committee that my experience/background and personality was a good fit for their program, not that I have a sound research plan already thought out. While I did make some statements about my discipline when explaining my research interests, I did not go as far as making citations. For example, I might have said something like "Thousands of extrasolar planet candidates have been identified by the transit method" and not give a reference because I would have probably used that statement to the effect of "wow this method is really hot right now and I want to work with it", instead of using that statement as a premise for a different argument (e.g. if I was proposing why my research project idea would be good). Just my thoughts, I have no idea if my SOPs were good at all! Also I don't think there is any one right way -- it will vary depending on who ends up reading it, so hope you found my thoughts useful but do what you feel will work best for you!
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why do schools ask what other programs are you applying to?
TakeruK replied to iowaguy's topic in Applications
Honesty is definitely the best policy but most of the time I was asked this question, there was only spaces to fill in 2-4 other schools (I applied to 8 in total). So it's okay to select whatever schools help you the most. However, I don't think the answer to this question will cause you to lose or gain an offer. For example, no school is going to think "oh Student X is applying to the top schools, he/she will get into those so we won't accept him/her" Why would they give up the chance to get a quality student? They just want this information to figure out what is each student's chance of accepting an offer, which helps them figure out how many offers to make (for example if they want to take a cohort of 10 students, and the average chance of acceptance is like 60%, they might make something like 17 offers initially). If you are a super strong student, I think they will assume you will be applying to the best programs, no matter if you actually list them on the application or not. I also think getting an offer out first isn't a huge deal -- graduate students are smart enough to think about / consider all offers before making such a big decision, so as long as the results come in around the same time as others (i.e. Feb-early March), being early isn't going to be a huge advantage. In most applications, when this question is asked, they explicitly say that this information is not used in the admissions decision. I think this is true (based on the above reasoning). -
Good programs for pregnant women/mothers
TakeruK replied to gilmoregirl1010's topic in Sociology Forum
As far as I know, while the structure of a Canadian PhD and US PhD programs are slightly different -- in Canada, you do a Masters first (2 years) then reapply (to the same or different school) for a PhD program (3-4 years), with some schools offering Masters students the option to change to a PhD program after 1 year of Masters (upon approval from department). But in the end, it's a 5-6 year program, like in the US. I know many students with Canadian PhDs that go to the US for post-docs. I've also heard that UK and European PhDs sometimes have problems getting positions in North America (Canada included) because their PhD program is only ~3 years after undergrad, which doesn't leave much time for developing a strong publication history (important in my field for post-docs). So, the advice I got when I was considering UK/Euro schools was that I should plan to do at least 1 post-doc over there, bringing my total post-undergrad experience to ~5-6 years before returning to North America. But I ended up not applying over there since funding for non-EU citizens is very sparse!! As for unions -- all major Canadian universities are now unionized. There is some anti-union sentiment amongst student groups at all schools, but it's a lot harder to de-unionize in Canada than it is to unionize. I think graduate students are easily taken advantage of, especially in our joint role as student and employer, and we need to unionize to protect our rights, but not everyone agrees! Anyways, the reason I brought it up is that some Canadian schools have very strong Collective Agreements. For example, you can get sick leave WITH PAY for TA duties, and you are not responsible for finding a replacement -- you just inform your employer that you are home sick today and it's their job to find a replacement (who will get paid additional hours, so it's not a bad thing). However, usually graduate students do find their own replacement because we generally care about delivering quality education to the students! It's just a good right to have, like any other worker, to not be penalized for illness. At some schools, you can even get sick leave if a family member (e.g. a child or spouse) is ill and you need to stay home to take care of them! Usually this type of leave is without pay though, but if you trade shifts with another TA then you don't lose funding. Definitely try to talk to students who are in similar situations as you when visiting schools (or even before applying). When I was visiting schools, I made it clear that the school choice is an equal decision between me and my wife so that I was basing my decision on more than just academic value of the program. For one school (Cornell), my wife's schedule allowed her to join me and they were very accommodating to allow her to be part of the visit as well (i.e. she joined in the social events and meals but there was no reason for her to meet with the profs of course). I don't know if it was coincidence or careful planning, but at most schools I visited, I was paired up with a student host who was also married (to a spouse who wasn't a student). So it was a good way for us to get a sense of what our new lives could be like. These people got me in touch with students who were parents too. -
Good programs for pregnant women/mothers
TakeruK replied to gilmoregirl1010's topic in Sociology Forum
I'm just starting a PhD program but I have a 2 year Masters program completed (in Canada). My wife and I are planning to start trying to have a baby at the end of my 2nd year (when all courses are completed, quals done, and hopefully have a firm grasp of what my PhD dissertation will be). One of the reasons we chose this school for my PhD was its good support system for parents. There is a stipend boost for childcare and I talked to some students who are also currently parents. I was disappointed to hear about the very short maternity/paternity leave time for students in the US though! Being male is definitely an advantage here since I have no idea how a new mother would be expected to give birth and return to work/school in only 12 weeks (students at most schools tend to get the minimum maternity/paternity leave time by law). In Canada, employers are obligated to give 37 weeks for paternity leave (without pay but you'd qualify for Employment Insurance benefits) and an additional 15 weeks if you are the mother (for a total of 1 year). Employers are required to take the new parent back to their old job, with the same benefits and pay as if they had never left. At the grad school level, this translates to having a full year leave-of-absence without any academic repercussions and that year off doesn't count against eligibility for funding etc. Some schools even offer awards to supplement any fellowships that may be put "on hold" during the leave of absence. So perhaps you could consider some PhD schools north of the border too, just saying! -
Gotta reply from Professor. How promising is it?
TakeruK replied to Rizu's topic in Interviews and Visits
I don't think Dr. X instead of Prof. X is a big mistake (or really even a mistake). Some people like Dr. and some people like Prof. (most like Prof. though). "Dear Sir" is a mistake though! Honestly, I have not known very many professors who care about their form of address (as long as it is respectful). So, I think the prof who wrote that blog would not "mind" being called Dr. X but it sounds like she prefers Prof. X more! -
how bad do grades need to be to warrant explanation?
TakeruK replied to DMX's topic in Mathematics and Statistics
I hope this doesn't come off as "mean" -- I'm just trying to be honest and straight. In my opinion, "immaturity" doesn't count as an explanation for why your grades are low. In addition, grades from lower level courses don't count as much as the upper level courses. Sure, they contribute equally to the GPA calculation, but the admission committees will see your transcripts too and they will see the upwards trend in your marks. That will already show that while you were performing averagely at first, you started to excel in the 3rd and 4th years! -
I think it's worth mentioning that the only real way to find out what a certain prof is currently working on is to talk to them. Publication history is just that -- history, it's stuff they worked on in the past! CVs and webpages can be outdated. It's almost always worth the 20-30 mins to talk to them -- you might be surprised! In addition, when you visit schools, you don't always get to pick exactly who to speak to/meet with. Most of the time, you will meet with people you indicated in your SOP or they might ask you when inviting you to visit. However, there may be additional meetings set up with people you might not have considered initially. So even if this prof ends up not being a good fit at all, it's still good practice for future meetings.
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Publishing in a Student Run Journal
TakeruK replied to ryan785's topic in Writing, Presenting and Publishing
Having been an editor of a student run journal, personally, I would not say it's worth very much. Our journal even had a semi-peer-reviewed process where the editors (mostly undergrad volunteers) would solicit one or two profs to read over and give suggestions. However, most of the time, we are scrambling to get people to submit enough stuff to fill an issue before the deadline. In addition, everyone is a volunteer, so we are all very limited in how much time we were able to spend on the journal. In the end, I would say we relied a lot on the student's supervisor -- most articles would list the supervisor as a co-author -- to help ensure that actual science was being written. Of course, that could just be one experience (the journal in question is now defunct). I think what one gains the most out of the experience is actually sitting down and writing in a scientific manner. So, I don't think admissions committees would view a publication in such a journal as counting towards one's publication count (especially since I know other student run journals may not even be peer-reviewed). However, what counts is that it demonstrates your experience in taking a large amount of research work (i.e. a thesis) and condensing it into a short, snappy article that allows people outside of your subfield to understand why your work is important. I'm assuming that you are not just simply submitting your thesis to this journal of course -- our articles had a 750 word limit! -
The PhD student has a supervisor -- can you get one from that prof instead?
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answering the question about what other schools you're applying to?
TakeruK replied to mrb1145's topic in Art History
On a related note, when/if you are talking to profs at your home institutions, or former advisors, for advice on grad school applications, you might tell them your top X schools/programs. They will likely also ask "Where else are you applying?". I think it's a good idea to not interpret this question as them thinking you're not good enough for the schools you mentioned. More often than not, they just want to help you find the best fit for you, so they want to ensure you've considered as many options as possible. They might even know some other good programs that you didn't mention/think about! -
If you are worried that your supervisor is only interested in you as an admin assistant rather than a researcher, then it's probably something you should talk to someone about -- probably best if you can speak to your advisor, but maybe the Director of Graduate Students or similar prof in your department. I agree with the above people who say that you're a part of the "group" now or that you're a colleague as well, and also that doing conference organization work is a great way to make connections. However, this kind of activity should always be second to research -- I am always happy to volunteer to do this kind of work when I know I'm in a group/department/advisor where we have mutual respect for one another (that is, we both care about each other's success and I am certain that they want the best for me). That said, every time I've done something like this in the past, it's always a call for volunteers. The prof(s) organizing the conference asks for volunteers and usually promises something like free registration and/or free food in return for helping with the prep work as well as on the day(s) of the conference. There is always tons of volunteers in a good department. If I was simply told to do the work, or if people were being "pressured" into volunteering, I wouldn't be happy about it. In addition, Eigen mentioned marking for the PI. Even now that I'm in a US school, where TAships are assigned quite differently from what I'm used to in Canada, I know that this isn't common at least at my institution. Only students specifically assigned as TAs for a course should be doing TA work for the course! It's simply a sign of respect that the TA get proper recognition for his/her work. But maybe this is a big difference in some fields -- just my opinion. Finally, are you tied to this advisor? Every advisor has a different advising style, and I think one of the most important things is a good fit between a student and his/her advisor. There might be nothing wrong with how he is doing things and there might be nothing wrong with the way you want to do things, but your styles just might not match! It might be worth thinking about what you really want from your advisor and decide whether or not your current advisor will work; otherwise, try to find someone else who is a better fit!
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I also agree that the only factor worth worrying about is how well can the LOR writer speak to your strengths and experiences. This means you want someone that knows you well and someone who you have done good work for. I guess the only reason you should be worrying about anything else is the case where you have to pick a LOR from someone who you didn't get to do research with (if you have more than 3 profs whom you've done great work for, then use them all). So, to answer your theoretical question about which prof to pick, assuming they know you and your work equally well, it's probably better to pick the prof that is better known to the department you're applying. The school that the prof did their PhD is pretty much worthless, just like your BSc school isn't going to be a factor after your PhD, the PhD school isn't going to be a factor after you already have a tenured position (since you've probably done way more research and evolved your career well beyond your PhD work). However, the practical answer to your question is probably it doesn't matter much between the two profs you mentioned if you haven't done good work for them. In theory there is probably one choice that is optimal but the difference is small enough to not worry too much about it -- there's already enough stress in the application process!!
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I think these two posts are the best advice. But if you really want to include it, I think it would be better to remove the last phrase ("as a gentleman and a scholar ought to"). Stating your preferences is one thing, but judging others is another! What if the person reading your SoP has an alcohol problem, or chooses to abstain from coffee and/or alcohol? I know that everything you say could potentially upset someone so it's not productive to think this way, but as I said -- you shouldn't have to worry about other people's opinions when it comes to your own preferences, but being judgemental isn't going to make you any friends. Finally, that last phrase, for some reason, justified or not, makes me think of the "Mad Men" stereotype. It also adds to the "Boys Club" mentality of academia (or maybe just science?) and it's something I'd discourage. Just my opinion.
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I got this information today from my old University in Ontario: 1. The OGS is now completely governed by the school (like NSERC USRAs). So deadlines can be set by the school (my old school's deadline is in March 2013). 2. I think it will depend on school -- but there is an internal (department-level) screening first, with the best names in each department put forward to the school-wide competition. 3. 2-year awards can now be given, no need to apply each year. 4. If you're applying for admission this year too, then you have to apply for a OGS at every school (like NSERC USRAs). I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing or a new thing to use the OGS as a "tool to admit some people over others". In my experience, admissions committees always want to admit students with funding (or the potential to win funding) over those who do not have it. The unfortunate outcome is that certain student groups (e.g. international students) are not eligible for as much funding (so-called "visa OGS" are very rare). Overall, it still makes sense for schools to want to admit those who cost less and/or those who can win external funding. I'm saying this from the point of view of someone who has applied for schools both as a domestic student with funding and an international student with no funding at all. To respond to snowshoes' question: I received an OGS for PhD studies for 2012-2013 year but I turned it down since I ended up going to school outside of Ontario. Your credentials are way higher than mine -- I had about the same # of publications, but no first author works at all. My MSc average was a bit lower and my BSc transcripts didn't have any "failures" but it was lacking in the "high 90s". Overall, for a PhD student, the MSc work will likely be more heavily weighted. If OGS parallels the NSERC CGS/PGS-D applications, then they will weigh research over coursework! In my own OGS application, my school accepted, as optional items, two additional documents: 1 page for awards/publications and 1 page for "significant achievements". These two pages basically correspond to the similar section in the NSERC application, so it was just a matter of reformatting.
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Gotta reply from Professor. How promising is it?
TakeruK replied to Rizu's topic in Interviews and Visits
I think the reply is pretty standard. It depends on the prof. Some people don't like being the one to tell a student to not apply, so they might send something like this to everyone who asks them. In reality, this is not in their own best interests since more applications = more work for them. But others do genuinely mean that they want to see you submit a full application when the time comes. However, you should keep in mind that this doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to be a strong candidate, but it also doesn't mean you are not!! It basically means exactly what it says: they want to see you apply. This is better than getting no reply at all but you shouldn't use the reply to mean anything other than "you should apply". As for the number of schools to apply to, money is a real issue, but LORs shouldn't be. Most profs expect to write a lot of LORs for their students, and they consider it part of their job. Writing 10 LORs isn't a lot more work than writing one, since it's mostly going to be copy-and-paste, change the school name, then submit. My applications cost about $1500 for 8 schools (including travel and accommodations to general and subject GRE exams). I figure though, that given the random nature of applications, sometimes applying to one or two more schools (i.e. an extra $100-$200), it might be worth it to ensure I get in somewhere given that I already spent >$1000 on applications! -
For my BSc degree (with co-op work placements), paid research work was a required part of the degree (only paid work could qualify for co-op placements), so I don't think it's necessary to separate paid vs. unpaid work. In addition, my MSc school (maybe because it was Canadian?) paid me an RAship in order to carry out my MSc thesis work. At my current school, TAing is a degree requirement but we are also paid for that (kind of). I was not directly paid to work on my BSc thesis project, but I thought it was just as good a research experience as my co-op placements, so they were all put together.
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Sending LoR - How does it all work?!
TakeruK replied to atay5510's topic in Letters of Recommendation
That sounds like a good plan. I had 8 schools to apply to and I did it in two waves of 4 -- I submitted the requests for deadlines around Dec 15 and Jan 1 separately, about 2 weeks beforehand. I did tell my LOR writers beforehand that this was my plan so they knew what to expect. In addition, the applications usually allows you to send a reminder email by clicking a button. A few days before the deadline, I used this feature so that the LOR writers will see the email at the top of their inbox and will be able to submit the letter without having to dig through their email inbox. I did this because I knew the profs well and when I worked with them, they would routinely ask for me to do things like this since if it's not on the first page of their inbox, it's not going to be on their mind. -
FAFSA date conflicting with application deadlines?
TakeruK replied to Sam0's topic in Social Workers Forum
It could depend on field/school/department but most grad school decisions are not made until February at the earliest. I'd even bet that at many schools, the admissions committee don't even look at the application packages and make decisions until after everyone returns from their winter holiday break (i.e. in January). The December deadlines allow for their staff to put together the paperwork, track down missing transcripts, scores, letters, etc. but I think that the majority of decisions are not made until after Jan 1. But I do know that some places can make earlier decisions and I have heard of people knowing their result before December is over, even! -
I've only been a lab TA so far (one "real" physics lab and one computational physics, i.e. programming, lab). My concern about a discussion TA is that what if students don't show up, or don't want to participate in the discussion! I've attended many workshops, taught discussion-style classes outside of academia, and practiced different techniques before, but I still haven't done it for the "real thing" (i.e. university level physics discussion/tutorial). In Physics, I'm afraid that the session will end up with just me showing the students how to solve various problems on the board. If I were to teach one in the future, I'd like to try to break them into small groups and watch (and advise where necessary) them try to solve their homework problems, but I don't know how easy it will be to set that up! For lab TAing, I really enjoy it because I get to interact with the students in small groups (or one-on-one) and I can really get them to think about what they're doing! I try to never directly answer questions (unless it's just a point of clarification); when something doesn't work, I try to ask them questions to lead them to the right answer. This is easier in a lab setting because if I walk up to a bench where an oscilloscope is being wonky, I'd have no clue what the problem is either. We can then troubleshoot the problem together, and there no temptation to just give them the right answer (because I don't know it!). Lab TAing is also easier to teach in the style that I like because the nature of lab equipment forces students to cooperate in small groups. In addition, since they can only complete the lab activities during lab times, and they are graded (generally discussions/tutorials are not graded), the students have to show up and be prepared so that they can finish in the time limit. But even though lab TAing is easier, I'd like to try discussion group TAing in the future! Just my thoughts. By the way, at all the schools I've been to, TAs across campus are all paid the same amount, no matter what discipline or activity they're doing.