Thales

For my credentials, I attended (and completed) both graduate school and law school. I'm now a corporate lawyer helping big companies get richer. Feelsogoodman. Hate to break it to you, but if you want to "help people", don't go to law school. Legal education and the legal profession generally have little, if anything, to do with "helping people". Also, as an aside, if "disparities" and "social injustices" really get you riled up, you might feel more so once you're looking at a six figure debt load and dismal job prospects after obtaining your legal education. And yes, if you think you're going to be spending a ton of time in court and arguing the philosophical minutae of caselaw, you're completely off-base about what it's like to be a lawyer. I can only think of one exception to this statement, and that's criminal law. Good luck subsisting largely on legal aid certificates for the first 5-10 years of your career though. ETA: Ignore all of the above if you come from a wealthy family and simply want to "explore" your "interests" with a law degree. Money isn't an issue for you, and you can afford to spend the rest of your life as a staff lawyer at a legal aid clinic. Congratulations and enjoy that $30K a year salary.

I'm glad to hear that there are more people who are interested in organized crime studies. When I entered my MA some years ago, the field was still quite small and niche -- so it became rather easy to make a name for yourself and contribute something new. To answer your question: look into Frederico Varese at Oxford's Department of Sociology. He's probably regarded as one of the top minds in Organized Crime studies internationally.

I appreciate the feedback surefire. To answer your question: the truth is, I've always enjoyed the theoretical rigour of academia. I also think the life of an academic is better suited to my lifestyle tastes -- albeit, I've long had reservations about the job market for humanities and social science academics. In fact, I had acceptances from both UofT and McGill to pursue a PhD in Criminology and Sociology - respectively - which I had foregone for law school. While law school is fine (and a unique challenge in itself), I found that part of me regretted the choice not to do a PhD earlier. I have found that I prefer writing papers and thinking critically about issues to the rote application of legal principles to hypothetical fact patterns (which is characteristic of most of the law school pedagogy). But again, I still find myself hesitant to enter academia wholesale because of my lingering reservations about the employability of most PhD graduates. I guess I was just trying to get a sense of what people thought about this.

Hi everyone. I'm not certain if I'm posting this question in the right place. I understand that this forum is intended for "professional students" in law and that "graduate law students" are something of a different animal. First, a bit of background: I already have an undergraduate and graduate degree from a Canadian university. I am now in the process of completing my Canadian JD (entering third year). I'm writing here to solicit some opinions from current LLM and/or doctoral students about the prospects of a graduate law degree (employment, etc) and consequences otherwise of pursuing one. I'm worried that further graduate degrees will make me totally unemployable to any area but academia, and I have some doubts about the virility of Canadian legal academia. I'm mostly concerned because I've listened to some disparaging commentary about the legal academy from non-law academics during my time as a graduate student. Thanks!

I'm only completing an MA, but I quite enjoyed my graduate program. I will be finishing up my thesis this summer and off to law school. Of course, there were times when I felt a little discouraged, inundated with work, or etc. However, I believe that these highs and lows are normal. There is no shame in admitting them. I believe what is most important is that the pros of your program should far outweigh the cons, and I believe that for most graduate students (or at least, among those I have met) this is the case. Take care and good luck in graduate school.

There will likely be a few dickish members of your cohort also. I never realized that grad school was a bit like elementary school until I got here.

Haha, sounds exactly like my situation. My advisor fully expects that I will be pursuing doctoral work in my future, but I'm mostly decided against doing it. However, I think you should at least give the opportunity full consideration. Of course, though, that is your choice. If you know that you never wish to do a PhD, then the choice is pretty clear. What I told my advisor is that I intend to work for a year or two before entering a doctoral program. I also made it clear that I was only considering the possibility of doing a PhD (along with other options) and wasn't get committed wholesale to the idea. This will allow me to come back to the opportunity without much difficulty explaining why I want to do doctoral work (after all, I was "considering" it for a year or two), but also allows me enough time to distance myself from academia (and my advisor) if I choose not to pursue that route.

No offence, but most of these sound like really bad reasons to spend another 5-7 years in university (i.e. to have the prefix "Dr." appended to one's name, to avoid the labour force, etc). These are reasons that I am trying to avoid propelling myself to making this kind of choice. A "love of research" sounds reasonable, but how many undergraduates (or MA graduates, to be fair) have legitimate experience conducting research? Is there anyone here that truly loves their field and never once doubted the prospect of pursuing a PhD for its own sake? Perhaps I'm being naive.

I envy those of you who attending institutions that were a bit... shall we say, "loose" with grading. I had to work hard as hell for As at my undergraduate alma mater (course averages are C- to C+). This is part of the reason for my curiosity about graduate grading.

Re: uselessness of student evaluations -- agreed. These things tend to correlate almost perfectly with the sort of marks you award your students.

In my experience, much of your student ratings will depend on your evaluation techniques. Make your expectations clear, do not rely too heavily (or at all) on student-led presentations, and give every student an A (ha!). You should see a drastic improvement in your ratings.

Wow. This is really more common than I expected. I think my situation is in large part due to my uncertainty about the future and because I am still waiting on the results of my current law school applications. I remember having a similar loss of motivation in the final semester of my undergraduate degree.

Thanks guys. Any more thoughts?

Is it true that the MA is "more work"? (at least, the "day-to-day") The PhD students in my department seem surprisingly lax in comparison to the MAs.

I'm always curious to know what reasons current PhD students had for pursuing a doctorate. I have found myself waffling between the possibility of pursuing professional studies (law or industrial relations) and a PhD. Obviously though, these courses of study tend to lead, in some respects, to completely divergent career paths. Applying my knowledge and expertise practically has always appealed to me, but in many ways, so has "research". Perhaps my hesitation emerges from 1) the dismal job market for PhD graduate (or so I've read and heard), and 2) my inability to think of a really compelling reason to do a PhD. I have always thought the pursuit of a doctorate as something that you should truly enjoy throughout. Entering a PhD program with doubt is not something I would feel comfortable doing. I have also heard reasons that were not as compelling from PhD students. For example, some have told me that they weren't ready for the workforce, that they felt the degree would lead to more money, that they were interested in the prestige that the degree would confer, and etc. So what were your reasons? In retrospect, do you think your reasons were good ones? Candid replies are welcomed and appreciated.

Of course, dropping out isn't an option for me (or even a consideration). I'm only in a Master's porgram, not a PhD. I know that I can manage to get through the next 6 months. I'm mainly concerned if the above constitute normal doubts, or if they are symptomatic of something festering and more serious.

Thanks for the candid replies everyone. It definitely helps to know that I'm not alone in this. I have considered the possibility that these may be symptoms of depression. The most telling sign for me is that I have really lost interest in my studies, which had never been a problem before. Also, I'm finding that it is often very difficult to get out of bed in the mornings, even after 8-10 hours of sleep. Also, I have developed a number of really self-destructive habits, like unnecessary procrastination that will later cause me undue stress. Also, a related issue may be that (as mentioned above) I'm not really certain if I want to pursue a career in academia anymore. I have long considered the possibility of attending law school, and that is beginning to look more appealing to me day by day. I just feel really disconnected from what I'm studying and feel that I need to pursue something a little more practical. I applied to several law schools this year and am still awaiting replies. I suppose that waiting through yet another admissions cycle could be distracting from my studies as well... A vacation would be nice also... some sort of escape..

Thanks Gravity... seems like a sensible strategy.

Anyway, I think its such a shame, since my program is great and I feel that I should be getting so much more out of this experience. At least it's good to have some reassurance that I'm not entirely alone in my sentiments.

Thank you for the reply. Actually, my program is structured in such a way that we we were required to take 6 courses and a thesis within 12 months, or 8 courses within 8 months. Unfortunately, I picked the thesis option, which meant that I had to take 4 courses the first term, and 2 the second (along with the expectation that I would be working to complete this thesis). It also doesn't help that my thesis is on a very difficult (forthcoming) topic with very few available primary and secondary sources. I felt sort of pressured to take this route (by my advisor and other people) and now I'm utterly stuck with it. Classes aren't really the problem, but I'm finding myself really bored with the thesis work. Also, I've decided to ditch the prospect of ever wanting to pursue a PhD. I'm just not certain that I love the "research process" enough. I've applied to several professional programs and I'm continuing to wait for responses from them. Perhaps, that too, has proven itself a distraction from my graduate work.

I should mention that I have also considered the possibility that this is a symptom of burnout. I find it strange, however, that this would happen so soon after beginning graduate school.

I came into graduate school expecting to feel motivated, to work, and to feel satisfied with my work. I'm presently an MA student at a top Canadian research university. I generally like my program, my advisor, and the professors with whom I have had contact. I am also very comfortable at the university (which was also my undergraduate alma mater), and etc. In toher words, everything is great about my department, program, and institution. I worked hard in my first term and did quite well. I have two classes this semester (rather than four) and am expected to complete a Master's thesis by the end of August. Now, however, I'm finding that I am not motivated to do more than the bare minimum. I've barely yet to begin working on my thesis, and I'm finding that it takes me several times longer than usual to complete my course work. I find that I am easily distracted and there is never enough time to begin with my thesis work. Is this normal?

Thanks again to the new posters for their replies. I'm not really concerned with the "importance" of grades, per se. I'm more concerned with how grades in graduate school reflect one's relative standing. It matters to me how a 4.0 reflects my position among my peers, not least because I will be competing with many of these people for PhD spots soon. Also, it would be hard to justify how a 4.0 would be reflective of poor performance. Obviously, that cannot be the case if it is the top grade. However, it would be useful to know, say, that an A- (3.7) or B+ (3.3) reflects poor, average, or above average performance.

Sure, I can sympathize with your sentiment(s) Matilda_Tone, especially insofar as your nagging feeling of relative inadequacy. Anyway, I am also from (and studying in) Canada, and my graduate institution does not award percentage grades -- rather, they award only letter grades. An A (4.0) is, theoretically anyway, the highest mark one can achieve. I asked this question not because I feel that others are better, more proficient, or etc than myself; but instead, I was under the impression that it is very normal for most (if not all) graduate students to get As in every class. Perhaps I was mistaken.