Do I Have a Real Chance? YDS, HDS, etc.

[MattSolo]

Hey there fellow grad school applicants and students,

 

I am finishing 4 Bachelors Degrees at my school (graduating this June).

1. Religious Studies (individual gpa: 4.0), 2. Archaeology (individual gpa: 3.9), 3. Philosophy (individual gpa: 4.0), 4. Film & Television (individual gpa: 3.95)

(and a Minor in Biblical Languages)

 

I am from a small denominational university on the West Coast of the US and come from an under-represented conservative denomination (though I myself am not) that doesn't often try to go to Ivy League schools.

I have right now an overall GPA of about 3.96 (graduating diploma count) and a currently listed GPA on the transcript (which includes a non-college class) of 3.9.

My GRE scores though are so baseline average, there's no point in mentioning them. Just consider it a possibly large negative.

I am deeply passionate about the Hebrew Bible and Second Temple Judaism. 

 

I've applied to the following programs.

1. Yale Divinity School (MARc Second Temple Judaism)

2. Harvard Divinity School (MTS in Hebrew Bible)

3. Oxford University (MPhil Judaism and Christianity in Graeco-Roman World)

4. Princeton Theological Seminary (MTS)

5. Vanderbilt Divinity School (MTS)

6. Duke Divinity School (MTS)

7. Candler School of Theology at Emory (MTS)

8. Boston University School of Theology (MTS)

9. Union Theological Seminary (MA)

 

Debating whether I should apply to University of Chicago Divinity School (since its after the priority financial deadline of Jan 8 and I have bad GRE).

 

What are my chances of getting into any of them? I know that's a broad question, but I'm honestly worried (as any grad student is). My professors are far too confident in my abilities and chances and I'd rather hear from fellow students. 

Do you guys know anything about how these schools currently judge student applications in the admissions process?

Thank you to everyone in advance!

[xypathos]

You're going to get in somewhere, don't worry.

Despite you feeling that your degrees are a bonus, from my own experience working in Admissions - it's going to work against you. Nothing that might jeopardize your acceptance but four degrees, two of which are remarkably similar, it says you don't know what you want to do. It also says you hit the bare minimum to declare it as a major and probably don't have any real depth in any field. If you were applying for an M.Div degree I wouldn't be saying this but you're applying for academic tract M* degrees which are already more competitive, have fewer slots, and offer less funding than their M.Div programs.

It's easier to transition from conservative undergrad to an ivy Master's, than it is from a conservative Master's to an ivy PhD. Alas, there are multiple reasons for that.

Still, the AdComs will be concerned about significant grade inflation which tends to be more rampant at smaller schools, particularly evangelical ones. Granted inflation is everywhere but in some circles it is far worse.

Rather than speaking to your minor in biblical languages, I'd make sure to speak to how many years and what languages you're already working on adding to your skill set.

Don't submit GRE scores to any schools that don't ask for them, don't give them extra ammo. 

Anyway, you'll get in somewhere. I cannot, of course, offer any guidance on probable schools of acceptance or anything. 

[Almaqah Thwn]

2 hours ago, MattSolo said:

My professors are far too confident in my abilities and chances and I'd rather hear from fellow students. 

Something also worth considering is that if you're professors are boasting about your ability, then that probably reflects well in your letters of recommendation. Even if a professor isn't well known, a strong letter can go a long way. 

 

[xypathos]

It’s common knowledge in Admissions circles but letters are largely a formality that get glanced at and tossed aside. For the mast majority of applicants, they don’t mean jack and probably never truly get read.

If you get LORs from someone that has some clout, it’ll go a LONG way. Especially from profs that have a reputation of only writing recommendations for their most exceptional students.

The reality though is that most recommendation writers write of their students as if they’re the second coming of Christ. Student X is the strongest student I’ve had in years, X was so insightful and probing in class discussions, X has the desire and hunger to not only flourish at your school but to also make your school better for being there.

If your writer can’t/won’t say these things, DON’T ask them!

Here’s the catch though, some writers try to make their letter stand out or seem genuine by pointing out a flaw in you and how you work to balance/counter it (some don’t even do this second half). X is reserved in class discussion, X needed more support in structuring writing assignments, X’s initial remarks were topical but needed probing to go deeper, X seems to lack clarity in research focus but makes up for it in dedication, etc. This shit will sink your submarine quicker than having a screen door for a hatch.

[ShewantsthePhD101]

9 hours ago, xypathos said:

It’s common knowledge in Admissions circles but letters are largely a formality that get glanced at and tossed aside. For the mast majority of applicants, they don’t mean jack and probably never truly get read.

If that's legitimately the case, then why make letters a requirement for applications? It takes up so much of our professors' time.

[xypathos]

56 minutes ago, ShewantsthePhD101 said:

If that's legitimately the case, then why make letters a requirement for applications? It takes up so much of our professors' time.

It's a checkbox and it is still useful data when it comes to weeding out applicants. It's exceptionally rare that a LOR makes an application, at best it keeps you in contention. It's like getting a 160 Verbal on the GRE - cool, you survived the minimum cutoff (I'm aware some schools have notably lower competitive cutoffs but that's a different matter). LORs are slightly more valuable than GRE scores but marginally so. LORs are largely an American thing too, some European schools have come to accept them but most rely on your past work, research statement, and usually an interview. That's it.

I don't want to write a book here or anything but we all obsess over our applications. Understandably so! We're largely being asked to reduce ourselves and capabilities to a handful of numbers, a writing sample, and a personal statement. These things reflect us as a person but at the same time, they don't. Outside of the writing sample and personal statement, this whole process is outside of our control. Someone in some office reads our packet, stamps Yes, No, or Maybe So and that closes or open doors for us. Sure, they might interview you but there's an increasing push to do away with interviews b/c they are admittedly biased. Most schools have something akin to Mercy Readers that are designed to catch applicants that fell through the crack, students that would be exceptional if all things were equal.

[ShewantsthePhD101]

15 minutes ago, xypathos said:

Most schools have something akin to Mercy Readers that are designed to catch applicants that fell through the crack, students that would be exceptional if all things were equal.

I love that concept. <3

[MarthUser]

17 hours ago, xypathos said:

It's easier to transition from conservative undergrad to an ivy Master's, than it is from a conservative Master's to an ivy PhD. Alas, there are multiple reasons for that.

I would echo this point. Master's programs tend to be more lenient and don't typically vet as heavily for religious affiliation/research bias as much as PhD programs do, especially given that most Masters programs don't really offer funding. I think so long as your statement of purpose/writing samples don't reflect a strong attachment to your specific denominational/religious affiliation and you highlight how the particular program fits your strengths/interests, you should be fine.

Anecdotal, but if it helps, I got into both Master's programs at Boston College School of Theology and Ministry (Catholic) and Boston University School of Theology (Methodist) coming from a conservative evangelical program. 

[sjca14]

Hey! I really think you should be fine, Master's admission is much easier than doctoral admission and your GPA is great.

I can obviously tell that you haven't applied to any Catholic Universities, but if you are getting nervous and would like to put out another application Boston College School of Theology & Ministry has an MTS degree that you build yourself, so you can focus in OT. The admissions is rolling and it has excellent funding. I know a lot of people who have been successful there that have come from small conservative Christian colleges and who focus in OT and Second Temple. Good luck with admissions!

[RiskyNT]

Everyone is giving good advice. It would be very surprising if you didn't get in anywhere. And it's for sure true that it's easier to go into an ivy masters than an ivy phd. 

Quick question, do you really have four bachelors degrees? Or do you mean you have one degree with four majors? Four bachelors degrees is crazy.

[MattSolo]

On 1/17/2018 at 8:37 PM, xypathos said:

Despite you feeling that your degrees are a bonus, from my own experience working in Admissions - it's going to work against you. Nothing that might jeopardize your acceptance but four degrees, two of which are remarkably similar, it says you don't know what you want to do. It also says you hit the bare minimum to declare it as a major and probably don't have any real depth in any field...

Rather than speaking to your minor in biblical languages, I'd make sure to speak to how many years and what languages you're already working on adding to your skill set.

God, I hope you're wrong. haha I'm an intensely interdisciplinary individual, so I tried to pursue and develop myself in as many areas as I could in order to gain breadth and depth in more than one corner of academia. 

However, I realize there is the worry that someone may view, like you said, the multiple degrees negatively. I'm hopeful though that my essays, which outline a clear vision of my future and direction, will offset any such worries.

On 1/17/2018 at 8:51 PM, Almaqah Thwn said:

Something also worth considering is that if you're professors are boasting about your ability, then that probably reflects well in your letters of recommendation. Even if a professor isn't well known, a strong letter can go a long way. 

It does. Their letters are, according to them, as glowing as anyone could hope. So one could hope that plays a positive role in admissions.

On 1/17/2018 at 9:51 PM, xypathos said:

It’s common knowledge in Admissions circles but letters are largely a formality that get glanced at and tossed aside. For the mast majority of applicants, they don’t mean jack and probably never truly get read.

If you get LORs from someone that has some clout, it’ll go a LONG way. Especially from profs that have a reputation of only writing recommendations for their most exceptional students.

The admissions office at YDS actually told me the opposite. They said that you shouldn't have famous people write a LOR for you unless they know you intimately well. Otherwise, they instructed me to choose little known professors at my school who knew me well over famous scholars I've studied with who knew me only partially well. They said they didn't care about name recognition, but rather paid close attention to the LOR's to see if the professor and student were on the same page. He said that if the essay didn't match the same spirit and tone for the LOR, they might decline admission. Likewise, he said that if a letter says the professor describes a student as "seemingly" anything or "potentially" anything, in other words, if they write like they don't know for sure, YDS admissions will hold that against the students application and assume the professor doesn't really know the student.

So, at least at YDS, LOR's are taken quite serious.

13 minutes ago, RiskyNT said:

Everyone is giving good advice. It would be very surprising if you didn't get in anywhere. And it's for sure true that it's easier to go into an ivy masters than an ivy phd. 

Quick question, do you really have four bachelors degrees? Or do you mean you have one degree with four majors? Four bachelors degrees is crazy.

I'm a little iffy on that as well because of some language in my school's documents. However, it does appear that I am receiving 4 distinct degrees, though three of them are BA's. I believe I will get 2 printed degrees on graduation day, one for my 3 BA's and one for my 1 BFA. However, as I understand it, its technically 4 distinct degrees.

I ended up taking over the government allowed limit of units (for financial aid), around 260. 900+ hours of credit. Took 5 years to do. I also did a pre-professional program in Pre-Seminary while I was at it, but that doesn't fit neatly with everything else (it just starts to get very convoluted). lol

On 1/17/2018 at 8:37 PM, xypathos said:

Rather than speaking to your minor in biblical languages, I'd make sure to speak to how many years and what languages you're already working on adding to your skill set.

I have indeed.

For those interested, the minor breaks down as

1. Koine Greek (2 years)

2. Biblical Hebrew (1 year)

3. Akkadian (1 quarter or year, since the applications don't allow less than a year)

 

By the way, one other detail: I have already been published in a top peer-reviewed biblical studies journal. So I don't know if that will weigh heavy or not on the admissions committees. 

[psstein]

17 hours ago, MattSolo said:

By the way, one other detail: I have already been published in a top peer-reviewed biblical studies journal. So I don't know if that will weigh heavy or not on the admissions committees.

Yes, definitely. Can you share which one? If you don't want to do so in public, you can always PM me.

 

On 1/18/2018 at 11:01 AM, xypathos said:

It's a checkbox and it is still useful data when it comes to weeding out applicants. It's exceptionally rare that a LOR makes an application, at best it keeps you in contention. It's like getting a 160 Verbal on the GRE - cool, you survived the minimum cutoff (I'm aware some schools have notably lower competitive cutoffs but that's a different matter). LORs are slightly more valuable than GRE scores but marginally so. LORs are largely an American thing too, some European schools have come to accept them but most rely on your past work, research statement, and usually an interview. That's it.

I think it depends by field. Broadly speaking, I'd agree with you that the LoR won't make your application by itself, but it can break it. The same is definitely true of GRE scores.

Across humanities, the writing sample and the SoP hold the most weight, I'd think.

[MattSolo]

On 1/19/2018 at 4:03 PM, psstein said:

Yes, definitely. Can you share which one? If you don't want to do so in public, you can always PM me.

Sure, it was JSOT.

I know I said that I wouldn't share my GRE scores, but the more that I've worried about HDS, the more I've thought about it. 

I got a 163V and 142Q. :/ Are my chances screwed by my chronic struggle with mathematics?

[xypathos]

7 hours ago, MattSolo said:

Sure, it was JSOT.

I know I said that I wouldn't share my GRE scores, but the more that I've worried about HDS, the more I've thought about it. 

I got a 163V and 142Q. :/ Are my chances screwed by my chronic struggle with mathematics?

Probably not at HDS. University-wide fellowships are often screened/filtered by combined GRE scores but I don’t think Harvard considers Master’s applicants for any of their top ones.

[psstein]

10 hours ago, MattSolo said:

Sure, it was JSOT.

I know I said that I wouldn't share my GRE scores, but the more that I've worried about HDS, the more I've thought about it. 

I got a 163V and 142Q. :/ Are my chances screwed by my chronic struggle with mathematics?

That's awesome, congratulations!

Nobody really cares about the quantitative portion in humanities. Some programs explicitly state "the quantitative portion is not considered."

[Deep Fried Angst]

3 hours ago, psstein said:

That's awesome, congratulations!

Nobody really cares about the quantitative portion in humanities. Some programs explicitly state "the quantitative portion is not considered."

To echo this, when speaking to the Director of a Graduate School of Religion at an R1 institution for Ph.D.'s they said their average quantitative score is between 40th and 60th percentile, and that the only really cared because the Dean of the Graduate School of the University cared. But he emphasized that it was average. Some, he said, had much lower, and some much higher but that nothing was really hanging in the balance unless you simply didn't do the section and had no score since the Dean of the Graduate school wouldn't be happy. 

[MattSolo]

6 hours ago, psstein said:

That's awesome, congratulations!

Nobody really cares about the quantitative portion in humanities. Some programs explicitly state "the quantitative portion is not considered."

Thanks. It was very exciting.

Glad to hear that about the quant score. 

3 hours ago, dmueller0711 said:

To echo this, when speaking to the Director of a Graduate School of Religion at an R1 institution for Ph.D.'s they said their average quantitative score is between 40th and 60th percentile, and that the only really cared because the Dean of the Graduate School of the University cared. But he emphasized that it was average. Some, he said, had much lower, and some much higher but that nothing was really hanging in the balance unless you simply didn't do the section and had no score since the Dean of the Graduate school wouldn't be happy. 

So then, ignoring the Quant, do you think that the 163V is competitive for HDS? Or Chicago?

[xypathos]

28 minutes ago, MattSolo said:

Thanks. It was very exciting.

Glad to hear that about the quant score. 

So then, ignoring the Quant, do you think that the 163V is competitive for HDS? Or Chicago?

Yes to both, esp. for M*

EDIT: HDS says that their accepted Master's applicants averaged 158V 157Q 4.0W. This information is from a recruiting fair that various Harvard schools held in China in 2017 that I attended (NOT for Harvard). Your scores however not only beat this but they also make you competitive enough that you'd survive the screening cutoff for PhD applicants - Harvard's medians, not so much.

Edited January 22, 2018 by xypathos

[MattSolo]

1 hour ago, xypathos said:

HDS says that their accepted Master's applicants averaged 158V 157Q 4.0W.

You have no idea how much that information has set my soul at ease. I was worried I needed a 167V to be competitive enough to get into HDS.

[MattSolo]

Just as an update, for those that follow my stats and want to know what happened: 

1. I got an email from Boston University's School of Theology a week or so ago alerting me that I had been accepted and was being considered for a full tuition scholarship.

2. Emory's Candler School of Theology gave me a phone call in the morning (literally woke me up out of sleep) in order to congratulate me on being accepted. No news on financial aid.

Crossing my fingers for the rest to see how things go. But it's so exciting to know that I have options! haha

[ChristoWitch87]

11 hours ago, MattSolo said:

Just as an update, for those that follow my stats and want to know what happened: 

1. I got an email from Boston University's School of Theology a week or so ago alerting me that I had been accepted and was being considered for a full tuition scholarship.

2. Emory's Candler School of Theology gave me a phone call in the morning (literally woke me up out of sleep) in order to congratulate me on being accepted. No news on financial aid.

Crossing my fingers for the rest to see how things go. But it's so exciting to know that I have options! haha

Honestly man, other than your pedigree (small denomination U vs. say a top 20) you're basically the ideal candidate for a lot of these schools. Your GPA is high and your degree reflects broad preparation for what you intend to study. You make sense as a pre-PhD MTS/MAR candidate.

I think you will get into at least 6, possibly as high 8 or 9, of the 9 schools you applied to, and at least one of the big 3 (Harvard/Yale/Oxford) you listed. Going forward I recommend retaking the GRE when you go up for a PhD. Your score is more than good enough for MTS/MAR programs, but getting your verbal to a 165+ and your math to a non red flag (150+) would get your from competitive to a near sure thing. I applied to Union and Harvard as well, so maybe I'll see you. If you end up picking Yale feel free to ask me q's (MAR 11')!