Rescheduled Campus Visit Invitation, Conditional on Whether the Program is My Top Choice

[sc9an]

I thought this would be an interesting case to share. Please feel free to share any comments or suggestions.

Background. I had a pre-interview phone call with a POI over the weekend. I learned a lot about his research and the program, and he agreed that our interests and goals are a good match.

Case. POI invited me to a campus visit and interview, but the date conflicted with another interview visit I committed to last month. I checked the gradcafe forum, learned that this is not uncommon, and requested a rescheduling of the visit. POI replied with something like "not sure" and "if you found that you liked the program after the visit, would it be your first choice?" POI then said if that is not the case the visit would not be "worth it."

Response. I recognize that asking for a rescheduled visit is only a request of mine, and that it is not unreasonable to deny this request given certain constraints of the university. I acknowledged this in the email response I drafted and also admitted that it is too early for me to assert whether the program is my top choice. (It was not when I first made the school list...) And then I said I would respect any decisions or suggestions POI would make regarding my visit.

I have not sent the email yet. It would be great if I could receive some thoughts from the forum regarding how properly I handled the situation. While I know I was the one who's giving them a hard time,  it just stood out to me that the POI would try to "game" the visit, or is it just my overthinking?

[Developmental33]

That's actually really shitty on that professors part. You have a really hard decision and visiting schools is an important part of the decision. That response would have riled me up. I would respond back with something along the lines of asking "If I say yes to your visit, am I your top applicant?". If he says yes, then maybe ask the other school for an alternate date (assuming this professors school is higher on your list). If he doesn't say you are his top choice, then I would go to the other school for a visit. 

 

This is also assuming you think you have a good shot at both schools (be realistic in your thinking). If one is a stretch, and the other is more realistic, def go to the more realistic one (imo of course)

Edited January 19, 2018 by Developmental33

[Eigen]

Why is it shitty? Asking for an alternate visit date implies to the school that you're not the first choice, and are choosing another schools visit over them. 

It's only fair for the school to wonder if it's worth scheduling and paying for an entire alternate visit just to suit you when you're far more likely to go elsewhere. 

[Oshawott]

5 hours ago, Eigen said:

Why is it shitty? Asking for an alternate visit date implies to the school that you're not the first choice, and are choosing another schools visit over them. 

It's only fair for the school to wonder if it's worth scheduling and paying for an entire alternate visit just to suit you when you're far more likely to go elsewhere. 

The other school was committed to first so its not a case of both schools sending invites at the same time and prioritizing a preferred school. Presumably the POI knows this so the question strikes as odd especially the comment "if you found that you liked the program after the visit, would it be your first choice?" You wouldn't really know the answer to that. At best, the only thing one could know is how much they like each program before they visit which is what I think the professor wants to ask, which I think is legitimate, but they didn't.

@schenar just be honest and say that the other program had extended you an interview last month so it is too late to reschedule that visit, and that rescheduling doesn't reflect any preferences on your part. Also state what you've said: it is too early for you to assert whether either program is a top choice, but add that you only applied to schools that you were enthusiastic about attending (unless you didn't and this school isn't that). I'd leave out the part where they weren't "the top choice" because many things can affect where you end up going despite your initial rankings, and you shouldn't be penalized for ranking your applications and then updating when relevant information arises.

I agree with @Developmental33 that what the professor asked was not...tactful (or even useful because you could just lie and say yes this is your top program) but you should not let this rile you up. Academia is a small place so you don't want to be leaving bad impressions, especially when the power dynamics are against you.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Oshawott

[Psychologyandpizza]

I had a similar response from a school. I committed to another interview date much earlier than I received my invite from them, asked for an alternate date or skype interview (nicely-just don’t feel like typing it all out now) and was told they couldn’t offer me that but that If I cancelled my other interview it should be early enough that the other school wouldn’t be upset. Has anyone else ever had a program suggest they cancel a different interview?? Anyways, I was forced to decline my invite because I’m not comfortable canceling with another school when a) I already rsvp’d and b)the first school was equally as high on my list as the second. 

[Clinapp2017]

31 minutes ago, Psychologyandpizza said:

I had a similar response from a school. I committed to another interview date much earlier than I received my invite from them, asked for an alternate date or skype interview (nicely-just don’t feel like typing it all out now) and was told they couldn’t offer me that but that If I cancelled my other interview it should be early enough that the other school wouldn’t be upset. Has anyone else ever had a program suggest they cancel a different interview?? Anyways, I was forced to decline my invite because I’m not comfortable canceling with another school when a) I already rsvp’d and b)the first school was equally as high on my list as the second. 

In my opinion, that is extremeley weird/wrong of this program to ask you to cancel an interivew you previously had scheduled. It's not your fault for moving on earlier offers, and they should recognize that and be accomodating. My top choice (where I am now - an extremely competitive program) realized that because they invited me and other applicants late in the process that many of us would have conflicting interviews. So I politely explaied my situation and they rescheduled with me (and several other students). 

 

Asking you to lose money on flights/hotels is just dumb. I think you declining was wise because from the get go the program, frankly, seems kind of manipuative by asking you to cacel other offers. 

[Clinapp2017]

8 hours ago, Eigen said:

Why is it shitty? Asking for an alternate visit date implies to the school that you're not the first choice, and are choosing another schools visit over them. 

It's only fair for the school to wonder if it's worth scheduling and paying for an entire alternate visit just to suit you when you're far more likely to go elsewhere. 

Or, ya know, it's pretty shitty you have already RSVPd with another program and booked hotels/flights that you'd lose money on if you canceled. You'd be out of $$$ and you'd look extremely unprofessional with the school you'd already RSVPd to (and almost certaintly not be offered a reschedule date). 

 

Just a thought, but maybe programs that extend late invites (after Christmas, IMO) need to recognize that other programs have moved faster. Late programs either need to speed up the process or be more accomodating. 

[Psychologyandpizza]

23 minutes ago, Clinapp2017 said:

Just a thought, but maybe programs that extend late invites (after Christmas, IMO) need to recognize that other programs have moved faster. Late programs either need to speed up the process or be more accomodating. 

This is my thoughts on the matter too. 

[Eigen]

Most of them do. But they also realize, as I hope most of us would, that grad school applications are a market that benefits the school, not the applicant. There are for more qualified applicants than there are spots. 

So from that perspective, a school with a late date is only going to change things to accommodate a student if they have a higher than average chance of that student wanting to attend. 

If that's not the case, it doesn't hurt the school to not have you come out.  

I understand the frustration from an applicants side, but you have to look at it from the perspective of the school as well. 

Grad school interviews, like much of life after grad school is about making choices in an uneven schedule. Grad schools at least coordinate acceptance dates, and that's the last time that will ever happen. When you accept an interview invite, you know it's cutting off other potential invites. When you decide not to back out of an interview for another one, you're indirectly saying the first school is a higher priority, even if it's for a combination of reasons.

On the broader job market, you either go to an interview when invited, or you don't interview for the position. You take an offer or turn an offer down when it's given, and rarely have multiple offers to compare because of differing schedules.

[TakeruK]

I don't understand why anyone would be upset at the school for only agreeing to an alternate visit date if the student thinks the school is their first choice. If I was the POI and looking for a student and I graciously extended an offer to come visit and interview, only to hear that the student already committed to another interview on the same date, then why should I reschedule the interview if I think the student would pick another school over me?

If the POI said, "if you don't cancel the other school's visit and go to ours instead, then we'll no longer consider you for our program", then I would say yeah, that's pretty shitty/bullying/etc. However, the POI said, "okay I understand you have another commitment, so before we go and spend a whole bunch of money and effort to accommodate another visit date, I want to make sure you that you are still seriously considering us".

I hope that difference is clear. Also, I hope you have not yet sent your original message!! I think it's a very poor idea.

11 hours ago, schenar said:

Response. I recognize that asking for a rescheduled visit is only a request of mine, and that it is not unreasonable to deny this request given certain constraints of the university. I acknowledged this in the email response I drafted and also admitted that it is too early for me to assert whether the program is my top choice. (It was not when I first made the school list...) And then I said I would respect any decisions or suggestions POI would make regarding my visit.

I have not sent the email yet. It would be great if I could receive some thoughts from the forum regarding how properly I handled the situation. While I know I was the one who's giving them a hard time,  it just stood out to me that the POI would try to "game" the visit, or is it just my overthinking?

You can't send something this vague and expect anything good to come out of it. Before you respond, you need to make a decision. Forget what you felt towards each school when you made the school list, and focus on what's available to you right now. Out of all the current interview invites you currently hold, is this program at least tied for your top choice? Note the part in bold---at this point in time you can only consider actual offers or interview invites you have in hand, not theoretical invites you may receive from other programs.

If the school in question is on or near the top of your list, then you should respond to your POI saying that yes, you are very interested in their program and although you cannot make a final decision until school visits are concluded, their program is a top choice. Note: If it's really your top choice, then you can say it a bit more strongly. If it's in your top 3, I would say that you can say "a top choice" or even just say "your top choice" since top 3 is close enough to top 1, in my opinion.

However, if you have 5 other interview offers that you are more interested in, then you should just be honest and withdraw your application.

Finally, just to reiterate: I think you and others in this thread are being too literal in interpretation of the professor's words. The professor is not really asking the student to rank the schools on the spot. The professor wants to know if the student is actually serious about this application, or whether it is just one of their backups.

[Clinapp2017]

I am just wondering if the moderators know this, as they are not from the clinical psychology/counseling psychology background:

 

For the most part, clinical psych/counseling psych programs reimburse little, if any, expenses of your visit. 

 

That means you are paying out of pocket to travel to whatever programs you are invited to attend. The most I received when I applied/was admitted was $200 reimbursement for travel. The program I am attending (which gets 600+ apps a year) reimburses nothing. The POI in question is out of line in fishing for information and should be more accommodating. Yes, if OP has no intent of going ever, don't waste anyone's time. However, if the school in question is #3 on the list (which is significantly different) than #1 and #2, they should still go. You do not know because of funding/other applicants if #1 or #2 will make you an offer, so you are putting a lot of eggs in a theoretical basket. In theory, I assume the OP is serious about applying by submitting an app to that school. Why waste ~$100 on an application if you don't even want to go there. That being said, you should not be penalized for having other interviews. 

 

And to @Eigen's point about having to make a choice about non-academia interviews, this is not entirely true (coming from someone who has two parents who work in HR/hiring in corporate America). Some companies may function like academia where they have "interview weekends," but often times interviews are scheduled around dates that work mutually for hiring managers and the applicants. I do agree about the point on balancing offers though, and that's generally the same procedure in clinical/counseling where you should not hold on to more than 1 offer at a time.

 

Note: I am not trying to engage either of the moderators in a fight here, but I do think the grad school interviewing process is significantly different in clinical/counseling vs other fields. One major differences is many programs (e.g., human development/family studies, for example) often accept students and then ask then pay them to come tour the campus before making a choice. In clinical/counseling, interview weekends are essential to decisions which (in theory) are not made until after the interview weekend occurs. 

 

 

[TakeruK]

Just to clarify, I am not posting in my role as a moderator here (and I don't think Eigen is either). When I do feel the need to put my moderator cap on in order to ask users to stop doing something (or other moderating action), it will be very clear in the post (usually I use a different colour and bold text). You may also know that moderators here are simply users who have been around for awhile, so for the most part, we should be treated as any other user unless we are actively acting as moderators. So, please, no need to be deferential. Fighting is bad, but disagreeing with me is fine and please do point out when I am wrong! Moderating actions are limited to cases where people are harassing others or otherwise violating policy, and discussion/disagreement is certainly not that.

Okay, so with that out of the way, I see your point about having to pay for these visits mostly out of pocket. I agree with you that this makes a difference. That said, as someone who have been on the other side of arranging these types of visits, it does take up a ton of extra time to do so. And, I would say that if the department already expects students to pay for themselves, then it sounds like they would value their own time even higher than the student's.

However, this information would slightly alter my advice. Since you're paying your own way, then I would say that as long as you are still interested in the school at this point, then tell them it's your top choice or one of your top choices. To me, #3 and #1 are essentially the same in the sense of what the professor is asking. (But if I am still misunderstanding your point, please let me know). But remember that this is a type of negotiation so if the prof is asking you about rankings so early in the process, I would say that you are justified in reasonably overstating your interest in their program. Hence, as long as you will still seriously consider an offer from them, then I'd say tell them what they need to hear in order to make the visit happen (within reason).

I personally still do not think the prof has done anything wrong. It sounds like competition is very fierce and they are justified in trying to get extra info out of the applicant. So, at the same time, the applicant is justified in saying what needs to be said to advance their own goals. It's not the ideal case but I see this happening for both academic and non-academic positions. Of course, some programs and industries might choose to act differently (good, in my opinion). But when the prof is "playing the game", you can either choose to also play, or, if this is a red flag to you then it's also a good idea to just withdraw and choose not to play.

[Clinapp2017]

@TakeruK thanks for the clarification! I assumed that you weren't posting as a mod and ending the thread or something, and I really value your expertise (and I imagine OP does too)! I am just wanting to paint things from a former applicant's perspective, as I do genuinely believe clinical/counseling operates very differently in comparison to other PhD programs in admissions. I love this forum because we can have discussions like this.  Still just feel weird challenging a mod though. 

 

I was never saying faculty/admin put in no time, because as someone helping the admin and faculty right now at my school coordinate the visit I really, really get that point! My main point is when students are paying ~$1000 to apply to the average number of programs (~10), and then say, interviewing at 4-5 which costs $500-$750 each to attend, those costs add up very quickly for the student. Yes, the student ultimately needs to make their own choices if finances are a hindrance (that's life, despite how sucky it is that the PhD application/life process is very gentrified). I admit I misunderstood and mixed up threads... it does not appear the POI is asking OP outright to cancel the other interview. My bad. However, the basic inference from saying "I am not sure if I can reschedule" is if you want to even have a chance to get in here, you'd need to cancel and come on the weekend we proposed. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it. It seems like a subtle way of asking pre-interview rankings. 

 

For me at least, my top choice program when I applied (which I am very fortunate to be at now) was top choice by a country mile because of the far superior training climate that is tailored directly to my clinical/research training goals. (Note: when I say superior, I don't mean other schools are horrible, but the offer I received was by far the offer of my dreams.) I did not tell other schools I interviewed at that the were not my top choice, but when I did interview at my top choice I told them outright that if they made an offer I would accept, and I did. However, I was not banking on my top choice making me an offer because you never know how things shake out with funding/other applicants. 

 

This may not be the case for all applicants. I had many friends last cycle and this cycle who, pre-interivew, have essentially what is a 2-3 way tie when comparing their top interview offers. The interview weekend is designed to be  two-way process where both faculty and applicants can figure out the best match in-person. For this reason, backing out of ~$400-$750 of your own money that you have spent to book arrangements for an earlier offer is frankly not your fault, and nobody should be put in a position where they are essentially forced to back out of an existing commitment to attend an interview for an equal school. Programs should realize the most competitive applicants are obviously going to get many interviews and will book them as they come. Each year, the weekend of Feb 9th, for example, has ~20 good clinical/counseling programs hosting interviews. You can't be in two (or 3-4) places at once, so if multiple overlap with the earliest offer that you have committed to attending, rescheduling (or skyping) should be allowable by the faculty if they want to be reasonable given the circumstances. All faculty were in this place at one point, and I have honestly noticed younger faculty being more gracious in this regard... perhaps the weird overlapping weekends wasn't an issue ~30 to 40 years ago. 

 

I've enjoyed this discussion a lot and hope that OP probably gets from this is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and there's not a best option, but several good ones. I am not sure if you agree @TakeruK, but it seems like we are both advocating for OP (a) thinking about whether or not they should even interview at this school and (b) if so, they need to graciously convey that they have already spent $$$ to RSVP for the other one and thus cannot reasonably back out without losing $$$, yet that being said the school in question is a top choice and they are seriously interested in figuring out a way to visit if the prof will let them. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Clinapp2017

[TakeruK]

17 minutes ago, Clinapp2017 said:

@TakeruK I am not sure if you agree @TakeruK, but it seems like we are both advocating for OP (a) thinking about whether or not they should even interview at this school and (b) if so, they need to graciously convey that they have already spent $$$ to RSVP for the other one and thus cannot reasonably back out without losing $$$, yet that being said the school in question is a top choice and they are seriously interested in figuring out a way to visit if the prof will let them. 

I certainly agree with these points!

Whether the prof in question is acting against the norms of the field or not is something I can't comment on since I'm not part of it! I'm glad lots of clinical people have put their thoughts here so that the OP can decide what to make of the professor's question. I guess I interpreted the "not sure if I can reschedule" very differently. In my experience, one prof does not make this decision so they would have to convince whatever committee it is to do so. To me, it sounds like the prof is willing to go to bat for this applicant only if the applicant actually wants to attend this program. So this is why I interpreted everything very differently. I didn't get the sense that the prof wants the OP to cancel the other weekend at all, but instead, the prof wanted to know that the OP is serious about their program before scheduling an alternate date. After all, even if the student is paying their own way, I don't see any obligation at all on the school's part to have alternate dates. The whole process is an optimization problem for both school and applicant, and if the school thinks they are better off with the other applicants in the pool, then why do they need to entertain any particular applicant's request for an alternate date?

As for scoping out pre-interview rankings, I still personally don't think it's an unethical or wrong thing for the professor to ask, because asking if this school is your top choice is a totally legitimate interview question too, so what's the difference if it's asked before the student spends $500 visiting this school or within the first hour of the interview weekend?

That said, whether these actions are in the norm or whether it's an okay thing to ask, it doesn't change what we both agree on above! It might not even matter. Ultimately, my advice would be:

1) If this school is more interesting to the OP than the already committed school, then if an alternate date is not possible, I'd cancel the already committed school.
2) If this school is not more interesting, but still of interest to the OP, then tell the prof whatever they want to hear (including inflating how interested you are in their program, within reason) in order to convince them to get an alternate date. It's not the best thing to do, but it's just part of the "optimization problem" and most academics will face more of these choices if they continue in the field.

 

 

(P.S. This is no way intended to end the thread! Others should continue to add their opinions! As I said before, moderating actions will be stated so, and if we needed to end the thread, we'd toggle the "lock" setting so no one else can post!)

[sc9an]

Hey this is OP. Huge thanks to everyone who shared his/her thoughts under this thread! The discussion here is very informative and helpful to me. There are too many posts to reply at the moment, but I've liked all the comments!

I agree that the question POI raised could have been quite stressful, by asking about a preference that has big implication but not enough information to support yet. On the other hand it is completely reasonable that POI would want to improve his return on investment (offer acceptance rate), and as an applicant in the process it is better off for me to unequivocally provide that information.

I have not sent out my email  @TakeruK. I realized that it has to be more decisive and reflecting my situation. I will have to revise it based on the suggestions many of you gave here. Many thanks again!

Edit: I just want to give "like" to posts as a token of "thanks for sharing", as people are helping to advise on my situation. I can't seem to like posts more than a certain times a day, but I will do it over the next few days. If this is not fine, Moderator please feel free to let me know. 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by schenar

[Eigen]

I really appreciate the field specific perspectives too- that's different than how the clinical program did it at my grad school, so it's always helpful to file away more information!

FWIW, I've been in similar situations on the job market where I've had to eat the cost of interviews when something better comes along. It sucks, but you have to keep your eye on the end goal. @Clinapp2017, it sounds like your parents are certainly more *cough* ethical *cough* hiring managers than a lot I've run across. 

I do think it's important for applicants to realize the dual goals of an applicant vs an institution, and where they mesh vs where they might clash- it helps keep in mind how you can phrase things and make decision that make the outcome you want more likely. I also think it can be a really hard shock depending on what else you've applied for- undergrad admissions are very different than grad admissions which are very different from job searches post-graduate. The level of structure and the relative power/interests of the two players vary a lot as you move through the process.