Tips for negotiating packages

[astroid88]

I've been accepted to some doctoral programs, but I would really like to do an MA and reapply to programs. My first choice MA is offering to pay about about a third (around $5,000) of the program tuition (2 year program). For it to be financially feasible to attend an MA, I'd need at least 50 percent. The MA is at a state school with reasonable tuition (about $17,000 for the whole program). 

I figured other people might be negotiating packages, so, in addition to offering me advice, what are some do's and don'ts of negotiating packages?

Edited March 1, 2018 by astroid88

[TMP]

Would you apply to those PhD programs after you finish the MA?  If so, then I would take up those PhD offers NOW.  What is the purpose of getting a MA when clearly you're good enough to get into a PhD?  I seriously doubt that a MA program would be willing to match as much as a PhD program; my guess is that the advice of the MA program would be to just take the PhD offers.

After all, why did you apply to PhD programs in the first place?

[TakeruK]

I am assuming you mean that you are not happy with any of the doctoral programs you applied to and would only do a PhD if you got into different programs? If that is not the case, then I would second TMP's advice. Take the funded PhD offers now.

However, if you do think doing a partially funded MA will truly boost your chances and it is worth the cost of a partially funded MA, then I think the best way to ask for more funding is to just directly ask for it. You have the "advantage" of not being able to attend if they say no, so you don't have anything to lose at all.

I would just write to the MA program of choice and say directly: I am very interested in attending your program but I would be unable to do so without funding covering at least 50% of the program tuition. Is there any other funding that is available?

The only "don'ts" I have is:

Don't do this unless you are prepared to immediately accept their offer if they meet your funding ask. So decide where you would want to go first and then start with the ask. If they say no, move onto the next school. But I would highly recommend asking one school at a time.

[astroid88]

2 hours ago, TMP said:

 What is the purpose of getting a MA when clearly you're good enough to get into a PhD? 

After all, why did you apply to PhD programs in the first place?

When I was going to apply to programs last Fall, I decided I was going to apply to all PhD programs. Having resolved to do this, I started seeking advice on here and elsewhere because I was worried about the level of one my research languages being too low to get into the programs I wanted. Users on here and other professors I talked to suggested that I probably wouldn't get into the top programs I wanted (think US News #'s 1-15). So, I modified my list, taking the reach PhD programs off of my list to save money and time and leaving those lower ones I thought I might have a chance at getting into (think 20-30 on US News) while adding some MAs. I figured I probably wouldn't get into the programs on my new PhD list either and that I would go the master's route. If by luck I got into a PhD program, I thought I might use the leverage of having the offer to fund an MA.

Well, turns out I got into most of the PhD programs in the range I applied, so I started regretting not having applied to higher-up schools. I feel bad committing to a PhD program that has lower job prospects without even having applied to ones that have higher job prospects. Had I applied to those schools and been rejected, I would probably accept one of these PhDs. I'm the type of person who will be bothered by this fact for a long time if I do end up committing to one of these PhDs. There will be that "What if?".

So I am at the point where I can just go the PhD route or do an MA and apply later on to stronger PhD programs.

59 minutes ago, TakeruK said:

I am assuming you mean that you are not happy with any of the doctoral programs you applied to and would only do a PhD if you got into different programs? 

I was initially very excited by these programs. I would say one them is the perfect fit research-wise but not job prospects-wise. But having received my package (which is good but a little TA heavy), having seen the packages of people at other schools I was initially targeting, and having seen how well I did without much language study in a critical language for my research, my thoughts are that doing an MA and getting more language study will put me in a better position down the road. Time is not the issue. Money, as long as it is not too much debt, is not an issue either. 

Thoughts?

Edit: I also realize that I could do an MA and not get in anywhere after, which is something to consider too.

Edited March 2, 2018 by astroid88

[TMP]

Having said all of that and looking back in your previous posts. You mentioned that Minnesota is an "awesome fit" and you only worry about job prospects.  Forget the program's name-- how does your subfield and your adviser's students do on the job market and fellowships?  If they do quite well, then it's not as big of a concern as you think.

You also said that you don't care much for where you want to teach although you prefer to teach in Florida.  As I mentioned, half of the time, you will be more likely to land a position within the region (Midwest for Minnesota) and the other half can be anywhere.  Believe me, teaching institutions would rather hire a Minnesota PhD over a Yale PhD unless the Yale PhD manages to convince that search committee that they are no way interested in research anymore and would rather commit time to teaching and would not move onto a different institution down the road.

By going to Minnesota, you will have to work just a little harder to establish yourself such as networking more, applying for more fellowships, etc. than the well-funded, top programs where students have it pretty easy in terms of access to resources and people. Having done this for myself, it has become gratifying.

Have you visited Minnesota yet?  How did you like it?  @ashiepoo72 did the camps visit several years ago and really enjoyed the program.  I think she had some good insights that she brought to the board but I can't remember what they were.

[astroid88]

11 minutes ago, TMP said:

Forget the program's name-- how does your subfield and your adviser's students do on the job market and fellowships?  If they do quite well, then it's not as big of a concern as you think.

Have you visited Minnesota yet?  How did you like it?  @ashiepoo72 did the camps visit several years ago and really enjoyed the program.  I think she had some good insights that she brought to the board but I can't remember what they were.

In an ideal market, Minnesota is my first choice. I will be visiting pretty soon and asking these questions. I am also aware, like you are saying, that I could be blowing this out of proportion and possibly passing up a great opportunity. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by astroid88

[TakeruK]

This is in addition to what TMP said about valuing how the students do rather than the name.

It's too bad that you completely removed the top tier / reach schools from your initial list. I would generally advocate for a list that is mostly "reaches" ! 

But in your case, if Minnesota is not the best program for you, you could also consider not doing an MA at all and just reapplying to the reach tier plus the tier you already got into this year. You can even reapply to the same schools that accepted you this time around (if they ask why, you can just say that you wanted to take some time off before starting grad school and decided you wanted to delay it by a year). It will cost you money to reapply but doing a MA will also cost you without necessarily providing that much of a benefit. Although I am in different field, I feel that MA programs are great at bringing someone who isn't PhD-level yet into PhD-level but if you already got into decent PhD programs, I'm not sure having a MA will make you any more likely to get into a top tier program.

[astroid88]

25 minutes ago, TakeruK said:

It's too bad that you completely removed the top tier / reach schools from your initial list. I would generally advocate for a list that is mostly "reaches" ! 

I thought the schools on my second list were reach schools at the time (and maybe they still are and I just got cocky after the acceptance?)

This is a lesson for those out there: don't let others deter you from following your gut. 

[OHSP]

1 hour ago, astroid88 said:

Users on here and other professors I talked to suggested that I probably wouldn't get into the top programs I wanted (think US News #'s 1-15). So, I modified my list, taking the reach PhD programs off of my list to save money and time and leaving those lower ones I thought I might have a chance at getting into (think 20-30 on US News) while adding some MAs.

I know this is a little beside the point but ARGH US News ratings. NYU is something like 23rd on that list, meanwhile one recent graduate just accepted a TT position at Cornell and another accepted a TT position at UI-Chicago (these are just announcements from the past week, there's been other job news this season), and NYUs Latin Americanists and Middle Eastern studies/history graduates are placed all over US schools, etc etc. In other words: placement, placement, placement. I was so deterred by rankings this time last year: NYU was by far the lowest ranked school I got into (by US News rankings) but it was also by far the best fit! Minnesota's not Yale but their program is good--you need to be asking professors and current students questions about how they place people who are in your field and who've worked with your advisor(s). I totally understand the anxiety and the what ifs and if you can do a funded MA and feel better about your future prospects then that might be a good choice, but I really, really, really want to deter you from letting the US News ranking influence you at all.

Edited March 2, 2018 by OHSP

[astroid88]

1 hour ago, OHSP said:

I know this is a little beside the point but ARGH US News ratings. NYU is something like 23rd on that list, meanwhile one recent graduate just accepted a TT position at Cornell and another accepted a TT position at UI-Chicago (these are just announcements from the past week, there's been other job news this season), and NYUs Latin Americanists and Middle Eastern studies/history graduates are placed all over US schools, etc etc. In other words: placement, placement, placement. I

Also a little off track: I actually considered applying to NYU's French Studies/History program, but I ultimately decided I wanted my research to go in more of the African/Middle Eastern direction (I study French colonialism), as that would make me stand out more on the job market. I am already fluent in French and Spanish, so adding Arabic would be an awesome triad. Minnesota does well in this area in terms of coursework, languages, and research connections. I don't have the Arabic skills needed to have been accepted to NYU's Middle Eastern Studies/History focus, and I didn't see how Arabic study would have fit in the French Studies program. I felt like it would have been more of a "side focus" in that program than the main focus. If I get an MA in MENA studies, I will probably send an app to the ME/History program. 

I will keep your advice in mind moving forward.

Edited March 2, 2018 by astroid88

[OHSP]

23 minutes ago, astroid88 said:

I actually considered applying to NYU's French Studies/History program, but I ultimately decided I wanted my research to go in more of the African/Middle Eastern direction (I study French colonialism), as that would make me stand out more on the job market. I am already fluent in French and Spanish, so adding Arabic would be an awesome triad. Minnesota does well in this area in terms of coursework, languages, and research connections. I don't have the Arabic skills to have been accepted to NYU's Middle Eastern Studies/History focus, and I didn't see how Arabic study would have fit in the French Studies program. I felt like it would have been more of a "side focus" in that program than the main focus. If I get an MA in MENA studies, I will probably send an app to the ME/History program. 

One of the things I really like about NYU is that fields are very flexible--like, very, very, especially in the early years, and transnational work is very much encouraged. The Middle Easternists, Latin Americanists, Africanists, Americanists, and Atlantic worlds people all overlap often, and I know French studies people who take a lot of classes in MEIS, so that's a thing to keep in mind if you do apply there down the road!

[TheHessianHistorian]

16 hours ago, astroid88 said:

When I was going to apply to programs last Fall, I decided I was going to apply to all PhD programs. Having resolved to do this, I started seeking advice on here and elsewhere because I was worried about the level of one my research languages being too low to get into the programs I wanted. Users on here and other professors I talked to suggested that I probably wouldn't get into the top programs I wanted (think US News #'s 1-15). So, I modified my list, taking the reach PhD programs off of my list to save money and time and leaving those lower ones I thought I might have a chance at getting into (think 20-30 on US News) while adding some MAs. I figured I probably wouldn't get into the programs on my new PhD list either and that I would go the master's route. If by luck I got into a PhD program, I thought I might use the leverage of having the offer to fund an MA.

Well, turns out I got into most of the PhD programs in the range I applied, so I started regretting not having applied to higher-up schools. I feel bad committing to a PhD program that has lower job prospects without even having applied to ones that have higher job prospects. Had I applied to those schools and been rejected, I would probably accept one of these PhDs. I'm the type of person who will be bothered by this fact for a long time if I do end up committing to one of these PhDs. There will be that "What if?".

So I am at the point where I can just go the PhD route or do an MA and apply later on to stronger PhD programs.

I was initially very excited by these programs. I would say one them is the perfect fit research-wise but not job prospects-wise. But having received my package (which is good but a little TA heavy), having seen the packages of people at other schools I was initially targeting, and having seen how well I did without much language study in a critical language for my research, my thoughts are that doing an MA and getting more language study will put me in a better position down the road. Time is not the issue. Money, as long as it is not too much debt, is not an issue either. 

Thoughts?

Edit: I also realize that I could do an MA and not get in anywhere after, which is something to consider too.

I totally empathize with and completely understand everything you've said in this thread. It is amazing how much our mindset changes just through the mere process of applying to schools and waiting to hear back from them over the course of a few months. With what I know now, my application strategy would have looked VERY different last fall.

Personally, I see a lot of logic in turning down mediocre PhD offers in order to build up vital skills during a Master's program.

[ashiepoo72]

16 hours ago, astroid88 said:

In an ideal market, Minnesota is my first choice. I will be visiting pretty soon and asking these questions. I am also aware, like you are saying, that I could be blowing this out of proportion and possibly passing up a great opportunity. 

Your adviser at Minnesota really matters. They have some heavy hitters there whose names will help you when you're on the job market, but I think @TMP's assessment of Minn grads having more regional job market recognition is probably correct. I want to reiterate that you should ask, explicitly for your POIs past grad student outcomes.

Minnesota is a fabulous program with lovely people and I know I could've been happy there, but their funding situation contributed to my decision to turn down their offer. I especially don't like that, when the funding does increase (which is rare in and of itself), it does not apply to earlier cohorts who get grandfathered in at their lower stipends. If money had been no object, I likely would have gone to Minn because I absolutely loved the Twin Cities, my adviser, cohort members and the department culture overall. Definitely go visit and ask the hard questions about funding.

[psstein]

7 hours ago, ashiepoo72 said:

Minnesota is a fabulous program with lovely people and I know I could've been happy there, but their funding situation contributed to my decision to turn down their offer. I especially don't like that, when the funding does increase (which is rare in and of itself), it does not apply to earlier cohorts who get grandfathered in at their lower stipends. If money had been no object, I likely would have gone to Minn because I absolutely loved the Twin Cities, my adviser, cohort members and the department culture overall. Definitely go visit and ask the hard questions about funding.

This was my experience as well. Actually, I spoke to my POI at Minnesota recently. He said "My colleague and I really liked your application, that's why we accepted you. But, you weren't a funding priority because other faculty didn't understand why you wanted to come here."

On 3/1/2018 at 7:06 PM, astroid88 said:

When I was going to apply to programs last Fall, I decided I was going to apply to all PhD programs. Having resolved to do this, I started seeking advice on here and elsewhere because I was worried about the level of one my research languages being too low to get into the programs I wanted. Users on here and other professors I talked to suggested that I probably wouldn't get into the top programs I wanted (think US News #'s 1-15). So, I modified my list, taking the reach PhD programs off of my list to save money and time and leaving those lower ones I thought I might have a chance at getting into (think 20-30 on US News) while adding some MAs. I figured I probably wouldn't get into the programs on my new PhD list either and that I would go the master's route. If by luck I got into a PhD program, I thought I might use the leverage of having the offer to fund an MA.

I would very strongly advise not paying attention to those rankings. Michigan State has an exceptional African History program and cannot be reasonably compared with George Mason. I bang on about this quite a bit (as does @telkanuru), but the only ranking that matters at all is placement. What are graduates doing? Are they in adjunct hell? If so, don't bother going there. Are they competitive on the job market? What do their publication records look like when they graduate? These are all important questions that you need answers to before you accept any offer at all.

Also, this is not something you should think of as "reach, match, and safety." Undergrad admissions approaches do not apply to graduate admissions; graduate admissions are far less data-based and far more subjective. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who didn't get into lower-ranked programs but was accepted into higher-ranked programs.

Edited March 3, 2018 by psstein

[TMP]

5 hours ago, psstein said:

Also, this is not something you should think of as "reach, match, and safety." Undergrad admissions approaches do not apply to graduate admissions; graduate admissions are far less data-based and far more subjective. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who didn't get into lower-ranked programs but was accepted into higher-ranked programs.

Definitely not.  I was accepted to American U one cycle without funding.  The following cycle I had 2 funding offers from top 25.....

[astroid88]

Well, I've visited UMN. Very nice facilities and the professors I would work with seemed like great mentors. I brought up my dilemma to them, and they said they don't see any sense in me doing a master's, as I already have a clear focus. I brought up getting more language training in as a reason, but they said that I can accomplish that there for free.

As far as placement, most seemed cautious when answering my question. The clearest answer I got was "of course the market is bad, but it's not horrible for everyone, especially for your area OP" (I have a non-Western focus). 

I'm still waiting on FLAS funding from two master's programs and one PhD program, so I'll be making my decision after I get those notices. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by astroid88

[psstein]

3 hours ago, astroid88 said:

As far as placement, most seemed cautious when answering my question. The clearest answer I got was "of course the market is bad, but it's not horrible for everyone, especially for your area OP" (I have a non-Western focus).

This is a half-truth at best. It means that, instead of 300 applications for one job, there are only 150 applications for one job. They're right in saying that the market is less awful for some rather than others. I would not want to be in 18th century Britain or medieval science right now (one of the reasons my interests are gradually shifting towards history of medicine).

[TMP]

5 hours ago, astroid88 said:

Well, I've visited UMN. Very nice facilities and the professors I would work with seemed like great mentors. I brought up my dilemma to them, and they said they don't see any sense in me doing a master's, as I already have a clear focus. I brought up getting more language training in as a reason, but they said that I can accomplish that there for free.

As far as placement, most seemed cautious when answering my question. The clearest answer I got was "of course the market is bad, but it's not horrible for everyone, especially for your area OP" (I have a non-Western focus). 

I'm still waiting on FLAS funding from two master's programs and one PhD program, so I'll be making my decision after I get those notices. 

Agreed with @psstein It sounds to me that the professors have done their job to be as honest as possible.  They are right in saying about language training.  They believe that you are well-qualfied to do well in the PhD.  Application numbers truly vary depending on the geography/theme/period.  For example, I heard that one prestigious program received only 40-50 applications for assistant professor in imperial Russia (or Soviet Union? I can't remember).  In my time here, I think the most applications we had for a job was for US Urban history-- over 120 applications! 

You are allowed to be worried; it's call "cold feet".  But if this anxiety is so overpowering that you cannot, cannot see yourself living in Twin Cities in the next few years and take classes with those professors, then it may be best to decline the offer and simply not apply to Minnesota ever again. 

Also, I need to stress that entering in any PhD program with blinders on that allow you to see the professorship as the only path after the PhD, you are going to set up yourself for disaster before you even start.  Be open to other pathways after the PhD.  That approach is extremely dangerous for your sanity, mental and emotional health, whether from the start or after the PhD if you do not land a professorship.  You need to think about what other job(s) can you find happiness in with a PhD degree and the skills you will develop (research, writing languages, the ability to manage such a large project etc.)

[astroid88]

27 minutes ago, TMP said:

Also, I need to stress that entering in any PhD program with blinders on that allow you to see the professorship as the only path after the PhD, you are going to set up yourself for disaster before you even start.  Be open to other pathways after the PhD.  That approach is extremely dangerous for your sanity, mental and emotional health, whether from the start or after the PhD if you do not land a professorship.  You need to think about what other job(s) can you find happiness in with a PhD degree and the skills you will develop (research, writing languages, the ability to manage such a large project etc.)

Thanks for the advice. I definitely have other paths in mind if my intended path does not work out. I've worked with languages, and I wouldn't mind doing something with that after. 

[psstein]

4 hours ago, TMP said:

Agreed with @psstein It sounds to me that the professors have done their job to be as honest as possible.  They are right in saying about language training.  They believe that you are well-qualfied to do well in the PhD.  Application numbers truly vary depending on the geography/theme/period.  For example, I heard that one prestigious program received only 40-50 applications for assistant professor in imperial Russia (or Soviet Union? I can't remember).  In my time here, I think the most applications we had for a job was for US Urban history-- over 120 applications!

Something worth thinking about: if you have a job that gets 120 applications, how many go in the garbage straight away?

I'd imagine 80% are thrown away rather quickly.

[Katzenmusik]

My opinion: if you are having doubts, you shouldn't take the UMN offer.

A Ph.D. takes a long time and consumes a lot of your life-energies. If you are already experiencing regrets about the application process, feeling half-hearted and thinking "what if?", it's not a good sign. 

Hopefully the MA funding will come through!