UK PhD (Oxford) vs USA PhD (Baylor/Marquette)

[chaotic]

Hi folks, I would appreciate any advice.

I am not really sure what I should do with my PhD decision. I am admitted to Oxford, Marquette, and Baylor. The thing is that Oxford would not offer me any scholarship. Baylor’s financial package is quite competitive / only full-funding from Marquette.

Yes, Oxford is a prestigious school. However, paying full tuition (more than $30,000 per year) for 3-4 years and living expense seem something that I can hardly manage. And, in terms of getting job in the US, my professor, a PhD from Oxford, told me that it is true that these days US schools prefer candidates / scholars with US PhD (coursework, exams, and teaching experience)

Now I have three schools (One in the UK / Two in the USA) where I can spend next 4-5 years for my PhD. I was nearly going to accept the offer from Oxford but I was really surprised to know that the professors would not give any credit to UK PhD even though they are Oxford and Cambridge. They are not highly recommended by the professors at my school (top-tier)

If Oxford PhD would not put me in a good position in getting job in the US, why I choose Oxford and pay all the money? That would really make me CASH COW.

On the other hand, my concern lies on the reputation of Baylor and Marquette. They have good program in religious studies but cannot compete the Oxford’s recognition.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[HTM18]

Unfortunately, UK PhDs are not widely recognized.. institutions prefer someone with a US PhD. I would pick one of the funded US schools you were accepted in.

[KA.DINGER.RA]

I would take Baylor over Oxford in a heartbeat.

[Deep Fried Angst]

@chaotic, you say you only have full-funding from Marquette. What program did you apply to? The PhD in Religious Studies/Theology comes with an automatic stipend of just under $20k a year in addition to full tuition remission which is typically on par with Baylor's stipend. 

Also, if you have any questions about Marquette, message me. I am in my first year in the PhD in Religious Studies on the JCA track. (I gave up on the Baylor waitlist when Marquette offered, so I do even have some experience in comparing the schools, though you have an acceptance and I just had a waitlisting). 

Also, Marquette has in the past offered money to some students who are in the decision making process to be able to come visit the school. You just have to let them know, and they can see if any is still available. 

 

[chaotic]

3 hours ago, dmueller0711 said:

@chaotic, you say you only have full-funding from Marquette. What program did you apply to? The PhD in Religious Studies/Theology comes with an automatic stipend of just under $20k a year in addition to full tuition remission which is typically on par with Baylor's stipend. 

Also, if you have any questions about Marquette, message me. I am in my first year in the PhD in Religious Studies on the JCA track. (I gave up on the Baylor waitlist when Marquette offered, so I do even have some experience in comparing the schools, though you have an acceptance and I just had a waitlisting). 

Also, Marquette has in the past offered money to some students who are in the decision making process to be able to come visit the school. You just have to let them know, and they can see if any is still available. 

 

Sorry for the confusion. I wrote it at 5 am. Baylor / Marquette (full tuition + stipend) and GTU (full-funding). However, I am sure I will not take the GTU's offer.

The financial packages that Baylor and Marquette would offer me are not very different and I now decide to choose between Baylor and Marquette.

Thank you for the info about the financial support to those who wants to visit Marquette in the decision making process. I will message you if I have more questions.

[chaotic]

6 hours ago, KA.DINGER.RA said:

I would take Baylor over Oxford in a heartbeat.

Thank you for your advice. I am starting to put Baylor and Marqeutte over Oxford.

[hyperborean]

I visited Marquette last fall and it's an impeccable campus and faculty is top notch for historical theology. It was my top choice, however, I was rejected from the get go. If you do decide Marquette let them know soon because I'm wait listed at Baylor right now.

[Deep Fried Angst]

59 minutes ago, chaotic said:

Sorry for the confusion. I wrote it at 5 am. Baylor / Marquette (full tuition + stipend) and GTU (full-funding). However, I am sure I will not take the GTU's offer.

The financial packages that Baylor and Marquette would offer me are not very different and I now decide to choose between Baylor and Marquette.

Thank you for the info about the financial support to those who wants to visit Marquette in the decision making process. I will message you if I have more questions.

No worries! Just wanted to make sure you knew about the $20k. It does make quite a difference. 

And congrats again on your acceptances! 

[KA.DINGER.RA]

1 hour ago, chaotic said:

Thank you for your advice. I am starting to put Baylor and Marqeutte over Oxford.

My advice likely wasn't helpful on its own. I was moreso agreeing with HTM18. In my experience, UK PhD's are recognized in the US, but much less so than US or top-tier Canadian (i.e. UToronto) degrees. Baylor (Baptist affiliation aside, academically speaking) is a top tier school. 

[EarlyXianity]

I have heard the US over UK programs (in terms of US jobs) in various places. Is there data supporting that, or is it mostly anecdotal?  

[xypathos]

It's largely anecdotal. I don't know of any actual studies done.

Usually, the criticism isn't over scholarship, clearly Oxford and the like produce exceptional scholars. The issue is that US programs, by their nature, expose you to some teaching whereas UK schools don't. So, if you're seeking a job as a teacher and you didn't have any experience during training, you're asking an employer to take a risk with you. Whereas as a US alum, you'll have faculty and student evaluations to show potential schools. So, if you need to hire a professor and have 50 applicants, you tend to choose the safer bet.

Edited March 13, 2018 by xypathos

[NTAC321]

I thought for a while about applying to UK PhD programs, but ultimately decided against it for some of the same reasons mentioned above. The funding is typically limited to non-existent, the opportunities for teaching are slim to none, and the degree is, to state it bluntly, less rigorous. Oxford and Cambridge and St Andrews each sound like great programs because of their social capital, but the degree programs in RS, as I understand them, are often quite limited in scope and provide little professional training beyond research skills gained from dissertating. 

Look at the CV's of folks getting tenure-track jobs in your subfield. Seriously, do this. They've likely taught their own courses, published something(s) in a major journal, and have facility with Religious Studies more broadly, not just in the narrow area of their dissertation topic. As I understand it, these goals are hard to obtain (except perhaps for the publishing bit) outside of a rigorous US PhD program. Plus, paying for a PhD is unwise and unnecessary.

The decision between Baylor and Marquette is a *highly* subjective one. These are both second-tear programs with theological dispositions. You should be talking with your prospective advisors at each school and asking them about who they’ve advised, what their students have done post-PhD, looking at the publications and job placements of recent students, etc. I don’t know your specific subfield, so I can’t give any more specific advice, but it’s worth asking your advisors and mentors who’ve been around and successfully navigated the contours of your sub discipline what they might do in your situation.

Email and Skype with current students if you can - they should be happy to do this if asked. They know the program better than anyone. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by NTAC321

[Averroes MD]

I'll chime in here. I was accepted to Oxford's DPhil in Theology last year, and obtained (and then lost) an outside source of funding. In addition to losing my funding, I was keen on completing a PhD in the US. This was more than just optics (i.e. how I'd be perceived by potential employers). Instead, I felt the UK style PhD would not give me the tools I need to become a true scholar in my field. I felt the added coursework, comprehensives, language requirements, and teaching--all part of US programs--would help me become a true scholar.

I don't know how good Baylor and Marquette are. But, I think they are probably second-tier schools. I don't know how they will fare against the Oxford brand name, and my guess is that it would be a toss up. However, Oxford is not a viable option anyways, due to the crushing cost. 

Therefore, I wanted to suggest a third option, which is what I did. I applied again the next year, and used the extra year to boost my CV. I was then accepted to a top-tier US program, and could give Oxford a middle finger, which I felt they deserved for even offering PhD's without funding. I think that's a racket, designed to exploit a student and their brand name. I cannot understand paying $30k/yr just to do a dissertation, especially when apparently supervisors there can be very hands-off and meet only a couple times per semester. Screw that.

Anyways, I think you should cross Oxford off the list, and then decide between Baylor, Marquette, and reapplying the next year. Three good options.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Averroes MD

[sacklunch]

Forget Oxford. Yes, it's anecdotal, but consider the small number of Americans working in country who have doctorates from abroad. The reason is usually funding. Again, it is anecdotal, but most people at R1 schools (grad students and faculty) consider European doctorates only an option for those who are 1) not "good enough" to get into an American program and/or 2) are very conservative (theologically, obviously). The admission rates are very high at places like Oxbridge for Americans; they know we can and will take out loans for the name. Yes, it feels nice to receive that shiny letter from Oxford; yes, they think you're a cash cow. If you return to the States, you will have a difficult time getting a job, unless you want to work at a conservative seminary/university. 

As for Baylor or Marquette, I would take Marquette, but for my own reasons. Tell us a bit more about yourself, your interests, and where you want to be in ten years.

[marXian]

I'll also add to everyone above who has advised choosing Baylor/Marquette over Oxford.

One other reason that hasn't been mentioned yet is qualifying/comprehensive exams, which are not part of the U.K. system. Those exams are also intended to speak to your teaching, though more implicitly than explicitly (i.e. hiring committees aren't likely to ask what your exams were in). I've used my three exams to develop five different syllabi that I can pull out and include in a job app if asked for, but that has also allowed to be very specific in my cover letters and/or teaching statements about what kinds of courses I'm prepared to teach (which most job apps do ask about explicitly.) Being forced to develop expertise in three or four specific areas under the guidance of some faculty who have expertise in those areas has significant advantages. 

[Kuriakos]

I think the decision between Baylor/Marquette is basically a wash. It really depends on your area and who you might work with. If you want to do Second Temple Judaism, for example, get thee to Marquette! There are also peripheral financial considerations beyond stipend+tuition. What is the cost of living where you are going? What is travel support like? In both of those cases (and these are just two examples), Baylor is the hands down winner. Waco is much cheaper than Milwaukee and Baylor provides extremely generous travel support which I know far exceeds Marquette's (I roomed at SBL with a Marquette student). Then there are non-monetary consideration, too. Milwaukee is far more interesting than Waco. Milwaukee also offers more networking opportunities due to its easy access to Chicago (which has a lot of good networking events because there are a ton of decent religion programs there). Just try to consider multiple angles. If you tell me your specialty, I can say more.