Should I transfer from my undergraduate institution to better my grad school odds? (CROSSPOSTED)

[lhgr]

Hey everyone, 

I aim to attend a masters program in religions, focus in East Asia (i.e. Hawaii or Toronto) or history of religions (i.e. Arizona or in a world where hell freezes over, University of Chicago), with the very end goal being University of Chicago's Tibetan Buddhist history. EDIT: I should add my first choice for my master's is FSU, since it's such a well funded program for those studying Chinese Buddhism. 

So, currently, I have a full-ride at school A(with the occasional loan that is never over 500ish dollars to pay for personal things, since I don't like living at home). I have a good Philosophy program here (focus in religious studies, non-theology) doubled with history, I am studying Chinese, and minoring in Peace & Conflict Studies. I am an honors students, and about to begin work on my senior thesis. I work a few leadership positions and my GPA is fine, I got a few Bs my Freshman year. I've presented research before. My professors have offered to do independent studies with me to bridge any gap I feel I am lacking where they can. That being said my school right now is very small, an open enrollment state school and doesn't really have a name for itself. It's no major state school like UMD or UCLA. I go here since I did so well in high school, I was able to get such good financial aid (plus a few other reasons that don't matter, it just goes that way sometimes). 

School B is a public honors college where I would have to take out loans, they have a similar program (I would take Japanese instead of Chinese). The coursework is more diverse, such as my current history department doesn't have a history outside of Europe or the US, while this school has a few more historians in other areas. I may be able to keep doing research, maybe not to the same extent to which I am now. This school has gotten people into UoC, Yale and even Oxford from my department but some of my professors have been saying the debt wasn't worth it and I can do that from here (which other professors are doubtful of). 

School C has offered me money to come be on a team for them, plus a good amount of academic scholarship. This is also a smaller state school, but it is above my current school. There would be loans my first semester but not much after that (I assume, it's out of state which would be new for me, maybe some loans for living). They have an awesome history department, with a chance to work with a historian's whose focus is in East Asia as my senior thesis. The honors college is much better here, I would get a chance for funding research (I fund my own and any travel that comes with presenting it). Plus, they pay for travel to other countries in the summer. They don't have a religions program, which is an issue when that's my graduate school area. 

I know academia and graduate school is hard and competitive, my dad is a professor so I've seen it from the inside, but I can't imagine doing anything else. I love teaching and researching, and maybe I am being compulsive planning this far ahead, but I would never forgive myself if I don't do what I can to go to the best graduate school. Maybe it's just because I was originally going to a much better school, at least planning, before some last minute issues with family that landed me here. 

Is a good master's program enough to bridge me into a T16 PhD program? Can I get into a good masters program from this open enrollment school that's very small with my CV and work I'm doing with my professors? Are loans and debt worth it? 

Sorry for the novel, everyone is telling me different stuff so I thought I would get input from people who have gone through graduate school recently, or just get a clearer picture of this. 

Thanks in advance. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by lhgr

[ChristoWitch87]

If you were going for law or business, or even a field where direct from UG to PhD was normal I would be more willing to consider options B or C, but religion works different. Ministerial jobs are middle class for a lot more education than is normally required to be middle class. The process isn't as competitive and prestige-driven as other professional programs. Also the type of knowledge that you need to succeed in a religion PhD is so particular that you can do fine with an unknown UG if you have other factors going for you (learn languages!).

My Recommendation, as someone who went from Tier 2 state to YDS is this: enjoy the free ride, learn a language or two, volunteer or find a social justice niche, and go to a top Divinity School for your MTS/MAR. Your masters level training will be the main point of interest for PhD adcomms. Save your money now and break the bank on HDS/YDS/Chicago later.

Unless you are looking at a major leap up (to an Ivy or t20ish) the UG distinction won't matter much.

Edited March 27, 2018 by ChristoWitch87
typo

[ChristoWitch87]

Also, take up your prof's offer on independent studies; that is the stuff good LORs are made of.

[JDD]

@ChristoWitch87 is correct.

I had very similar worries coming out of ungrad/into Masters application season. I graduated with a high GPA and decent credentials from a mid-tier state school. My UG degree wasn't even in the same field as religious studies. Still, I worked hard on my app, got quality LOR's and submitted before the priority deadline. I got into every school to which I applied (including 3 TT M.Div programs - all with plenty enough funding to attend). This was partially because acceptance rates for even the best Div schools hovers between 30-50%. Still, I don't believe that a mediocre GPA and sub-par resume would have served me as well.

It sounds like you have a very good chance of being admitted, even with funding. From the looks of it, what you should really be worrying about is your path to a TT Ph.D program. That appears to be much more difficult.

[lhgr]

2 hours ago, ChristoWitch87 said:

If you were going for law or business, or even a field where direct from UG to PhD was normal I would be more willing to consider options B or C, but religion works different. Ministerial jobs are middle class for a lot more education than is normally required to be middle class. The process isn't as competitive and prestige-driven as other professional programs. Also the type of knowledge that you need to succeed in a religion PhD is so particular that you can do fine with an unknown UG if you have other factors going for you (learn languages!).

My Recommendation, as someone who went from Tier 2 state to YDS is this: enjoy the free ride, learn a language or two, volunteer or find a social justice niche, and go to a top Divinity School for your MTS/MAR. Your masters level training will be the main point of interest for PhD adcomms. Save your money now and break the bank on HDS/YDS/Chicago later.

Unless you are looking at a major leap up (to an Ivy or t20ish) the UG distinction won't matter much.

This is comforting to read, I appreciate it. I will focus on learning a language and it makes sense what you're saying. It's good to know that my masters will matter more when I am looking at PhD programs. I'm not really looking at MDiv programs but I am assuming a lot of what you all are saying applies since it's the same nature. I really appreciate it, and I will take your advice on the independent studies. 

2 hours ago, JDD said:

@ChristoWitch87 is correct.

I had very similar worries coming out of ungrad/into Masters application season. I graduated with a high GPA and decent credentials from a mid-tier state school. My UG degree wasn't even in the same field as religious studies. Still, I worked hard on my app, got quality LOR's and submitted before the priority deadline. I got into every school to which I applied (including 3 TT M.Div programs - all with plenty enough funding to attend). This was partially because acceptance rates for even the best Div schools hovers between 30-50%. Still, I don't believe that a mediocre GPA and sub-par resume would have served me as well.

It sounds like you have a very good chance of being admitted, even with funding. From the looks of it, what you should really be worrying about is your path to a TT Ph.D program. That appears to be much more difficult.

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback. It helps soothe some of the anxieties I have been having the past few weeks as deadlines roll up. Congrats on your acceptances, those are awesome. I hope I can have something similar in my bio in a few years. I'm not really looking at Mdiv, but like I said, I guess it's a similar process since the field is housed in the same school (in most cases)? I hope to get into a TT PhD program and I guess that's what stresses me out, but in the end, my UG doesn't matter very much (as in name) as long as it gets me into a good Masters program, so that's what I should focus on. Thank you. 

[sacklunch]

I'll play the other side. I disagree with at least some of the comments above; it matters a great deal where you went to UG for some academics. It's true that religion as a discipline is less traditional in this regard than, say, classics; the comments above rightly point out part of the reason is because basically everyone needs at least one M* to get into any doctoral program and religion (read divinity) M* are much easier to get into than other non-divinity M* from TT schools. This does not mean, however, that UG ranking doesn't help. How does it help? First, it gives you an edge when applying to doctoral programs because you stand out among the ocean of applicants from small liberal art schools or big state schools. But more importantly, it impacts, or at least it seems to impact from my limited experience, one's placement after the PhD. Two caveats here: I'm talking about TT doctoral programs and TT faculty positions (let's say universities within the top 50 of "popular rankings"). I have heard from faculty at my program (TT) that undergraduate prestige matters for doctoral admissions and especially for hiring faculty. This is, of course, all anecdotal; I have no earthly clue if this same sort of thing occurs at other schools and I welcome anyone to engage me on this. But I'm guessing it does. What has been particularly interesting, to me at least, is hearing scholars note a prospective student's/faculty's undergraduate background even when said person has an UG degree in a completely unrelated field (the two persons that come to mind: prospective faculty, one with an AB from Princeton, the other Harvard, both in STEM fields). Again, these are the extremes. If said persons went to say, UMich or Rice (high ranking schools outside of the usual elite suspects), I doubt the weight would carry the same. 

On the other hand, going from an unknown state school (the OP's) to a known, but low ranking state school may not be worth the trouble (more importantly, the money!). I say stay where you're at unless the money is doable. But you might look into transferring into a much higher ranked school (public or private), if possible. This is impossible for many students due to personal/financial reasons. But we don't know your situation. In any case, you don't know until you apply; apply to transfer to high ranking schools of interest and see what happens (though some do not allow undergraduate transfers). I know one person at my university who did something similar for undergrad (transferred from an unknown state school to Berkeley). 

/rant

[MattSolo]

As someone who got into 7/9 top schools applied (including Yale) but was from an obscure small Christian university, I'm gonna have to agree with the majority here. Where you go for undergrad does not matter as much when applying to Masters programs. Rather, if you're at a small school, try to use it to your advantage. Can you take multiple majors (looks like your a double major, good)? Do it. Because of the crossovers in the differing degree programs and the fact that my school counts different majors as separate degrees, I was able to graduate with a number of distinct bachelors degrees in a host of interrelated subjects (Religion, Archaeology, Philosophy, etc). I'm convinced that played a positive role in attracting certain schools. Likewise, get published. Submit a paper to a journal (and then submit some more) before your apps for Masters, and in doing so you will not only impress them somewhat more than people from better schools with no publications, but you will also have your writing sample (kill two birds with one stone). Join national honor societies at your school (and not just their general honors program) and use your small school to your advantage in order to keep a strong high gpa. Become involved in whatever opportunities you can find. And most important: create very close relationships with professors who will bend over backwards in their LOR to praise you in-detail about all of your accomplishments. All of that means far more than anything a mere transfer of schools could offer.

[seung]

My undergrad was at a school most people have probably never heard of. I took advantage of being at a school school by building close relationships with my professors, something that not only helped me with my recommendations, but also made for a great educational experience.  Their great letters got me into a top tier masters program.  And now I'm in my top choice doctoral program.

[Rabbit Run]

To echo what others have said, I went to a small liberal arts school that's not really known outside the region, did well, was able to develop relationships with professors and got into multiple top Masters programs. The sort of institution you go to at the Bachelors level isn't as significant in religion. Of course, a BA from an Ivy League school (or a Chicago, Duke,  Stanford etc.) will look good come Ph.D. applications and job searches, but the advantage of transferring into a more prestigious undergrad is marginal at best since what matters at this stage is cultivating relationships with professors who can write good LORs for you and help you become a better writer.

[sacklunch]

Again, against the others, we should not forget the differences between successful M* (divinity) and doctoral applicants (religious studies). 

More to the point, though: successfully going from an unknown undergraduate to ivy-divinity or even ivy-PhD religious studies doesn't say much about the weight of undergraduate prestige. My main point of evidence here, mentioned above, is the number of applicants from unknown schools to both M* and PhD are much higher than TT schools. For example, take a look here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/opinion/the-humanities-in-crisis-not-at-most-schools.html

The point is that undergraduates at ivy/TT schools are increasingly moving away from the humanities, while interest in the humanities has remained more or less the same at smaller/unknown schools over the past few decades, though high ranking public schools also appear to remain constant (Berkeley). The result is, I gather, fewer TT-BA-holders are applying to graduate degrees in the humanities, while there are more applicants to humanities graduate degrees from unknown schools. Yes, I understand that the OP is not talking about applying as a transfer to Yale (not even possible). I'm merely pointing out that we cannot adequately measure whether or not UG prestige matters given the applicant pool. My guess is that, yes, it mattered before to some academics and now perhaps a bit more. /rant2

[ChristoWitch87]

10 hours ago, sacklunch said:

Again, against the others, we should not forget the differences between successful M* (divinity) and doctoral applicants (religious studies). 

More to the point, though: successfully going from an unknown undergraduate to ivy-divinity or even ivy-PhD religious studies doesn't say much about the weight of undergraduate prestige. My main point of evidence here, mentioned above, is the number of applicants from unknown schools to both M* and PhD are much higher than TT schools. For example, take a look here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/opinion/the-humanities-in-crisis-not-at-most-schools.html

The point is that undergraduates at ivy/TT schools are increasingly moving away from the humanities, while interest in the humanities has remained more or less the same at smaller/unknown schools over the past few decades, though high ranking public schools also appear to remain constant (Berkeley). The result is, I gather, fewer TT-BA-holders are applying to graduate degrees in the humanities, while there are more applicants to humanities graduate degrees from unknown schools. Yes, I understand that the OP is not talking about applying as a transfer to Yale (not even possible). I'm merely pointing out that we cannot adequately measure whether or not UG prestige matters given the applicant pool. My guess is that, yes, it mattered before to some academics and now perhaps a bit more. /rant2

I agree that it will matter at the absolute highest levels of academia. That is to say, if OP is dead set on getting an M* from HDS, then a PhD from HDS, so he can teach religion at Harvard, then sure, an Ivy UG matters. But I think it affects the calculus the most for that last part; teaching at an Ivy. Getting into one for an M* it won't matter much, for a PhD it will matter a bit but more as a tie breaker. I think if an adcomm is looking for a guy for a PhD in NT, they will take the unknown UG with a good M* and 3 years of Greek all A's over an Ivy UG with less focused training. Now, are there some candidates who have all those things going for them? Sure, but for the reasons you posted not as many as we may think.

As an aside, I think the reasons for this phenomena are generational and socio-economic. I imagine the children of Ivy UGs (there are exceptions) probably grew up with more specific expectations in terms of profession and earnings. First generation college students tend to have a more untouched concept of the American Dream (get a degree and it will work out). I also think Ministry is for some people a way to change the paradigm of their family legacy. Military service, ministry, and to an extent law among a few other professions come with a fair amount of social capital that can help reverse negative generational trends. This and a more personal understanding of suffering probably explain the low and middle class, non-elite backgrounds of those in religious and ministerial vocations even at elite schools. 

[ChristoWitch87]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 6:33 PM, lhgr said:

This is comforting to read, I appreciate it. I will focus on learning a language and it makes sense what you're saying. It's good to know that my masters will matter more when I am looking at PhD programs. I'm not really looking at MDiv programs but I am assuming a lot of what you all are saying applies since it's the same nature. I really appreciate it, and I will take your advice on the independent studies. 

It does. It will matter slightly more for MTS/MAR programs (because they assume intent to teach and research in most cases) but even in these cases I don't see it as more than a tie breaker.

Also if you have church involvement and good ECs you may want to consider an M.Div. You have a lot of time to think on that though.

[sacklunch]

1 hour ago, ChristoWitch87 said:

I agree that it will matter at the absolute highest levels of academia. That is to say, if OP is dead set on getting an M* from HDS, then a PhD from HDS, so he can teach religion at Harvard, then sure, an Ivy UG matters. But I think it affects the calculus the most for that last part; teaching at an Ivy. Getting into one for an M* it won't matter much, for a PhD it will matter a bit but more as a tie breaker. I think if an adcomm is looking for a guy for a PhD in NT, they will take the unknown UG with a good M* and 3 years of Greek all A's over an Ivy UG with less focused training. Now, are there some candidates who have all those things going for them? Sure, but for the reasons you posted not as many as we may think.

As an aside, I think the reasons for this phenomena are generational and socio-economic. I imagine the children of Ivy UGs (there are exceptions) probably grew up with more specific expectations in terms of profession and earnings. First generation college students tend to have a more untouched concept of the American Dream (get a degree and it will work out). I also think Ministry is for some people a way to change the paradigm of their family legacy. Military service, ministry, and to an extent law among a few other professions come with a fair amount of social capital that can help reverse negative generational trends. This and a more personal understanding of suffering probably explain the low and middle class, non-elite backgrounds of those in religious and ministerial vocations even at elite schools. 

Some good points. But, again, we simply cannot say how much it matters for getting into a high ranking M* or PhD given the available evidence. All the evidence offers is that there are very low numbers of high ranking UG applicants to graduate degrees in religion, meaning that applicants from unknown UG schools are the majority. But you're right in that because the majority are from unknowns, it won't necessarily decrease one's chances for getting into a high ranking M* and perhaps even PhD. Assuming this disparity in UG backgrounds, it may be significant that a relatively high number of PhD students whom I know at TT programs come from known UG schools, some ivies, but many from top 50-ish. I mean that the percentage of current PhD students from top 50-ish UG at TT schools is higher than the percentage of these type of students applying (e.g. let's say 25% of phd students in Stanford's religion program come from top 50 UG, while at the level of applications this percentage is more like 10%). This is, of course, not to say that this higher percentage simply reflects UG prestige. Anyways! I agree with most of the comments here. My hesitation is that UG prestige doesn't matter or that it has only a very small impact. For the OP, much of this is moot; I happily concede that prestige makes less and less of a difference the lower you climb the rankings. 

<3

[lhgr]

On 3/27/2018 at 6:20 PM, sacklunch said:

I'll play the other side. I disagree with at least some of the comments above; it matters a great deal where you went to UG for some academics. It's true that religion as a discipline is less traditional in this regard than, say, classics; the comments above rightly point out part of the reason is because basically everyone needs at least one M* to get into any doctoral program and religion (read divinity) M* are much easier to get into than other non-divinity M* from TT schools. This does not mean, however, that UG ranking doesn't help. How does it help? First, it gives you an edge when applying to doctoral programs because you stand out among the ocean of applicants from small liberal art schools or big state schools. But more importantly, it impacts, or at least it seems to impact from my limited experience, one's placement after the PhD. Two caveats here: I'm talking about TT doctoral programs and TT faculty positions (let's say universities within the top 50 of "popular rankings"). I have heard from faculty at my program (TT) that undergraduate prestige matters for doctoral admissions and especially for hiring faculty. This is, of course, all anecdotal; I have no earthly clue if this same sort of thing occurs at other schools and I welcome anyone to engage me on this. But I'm guessing it does. What has been particularly interesting, to me at least, is hearing scholars note a prospective student's/faculty's undergraduate background even when said person has an UG degree in a completely unrelated field (the two persons that come to mind: prospective faculty, one with an AB from Princeton, the other Harvard, both in STEM fields). Again, these are the extremes. If said persons went to say, UMich or Rice (high ranking schools outside of the usual elite suspects), I doubt the weight would carry the same. 

On the other hand, going from an unknown state school (the OP's) to a known, but low ranking state school may not be worth the trouble (more importantly, the money!). I say stay where you're at unless the money is doable. But you might look into transferring into a much higher ranked school (public or private), if possible. This is impossible for many students due to personal/financial reasons. But we don't know your situation. In any case, you don't know until you apply; apply to transfer to high ranking schools of interest and see what happens (though some do not allow undergraduate transfers). I know one person at my university who did something similar for undergrad (transferred from an unknown state school to Berkeley). 

/rant

Sorry for the late reply, I have been working on research all week and trying to avoid forum distraction.
This totally makes sense! I doubt there ever really is a case when undergraduate from a no name school versus an ivy league wouldn't make a difference, that would just be foolish to believe. This was actually one of the most helpful comments in contextualizing the jump from a no name school to another no name school isn't going to be the magic pill for admissions. I have started looking at T50 undergraduate schools, since that would be a jump that matters, if I still feel the need to transfer. That being said, their transfer scholarships are such shit, almost always, which is frustrating. Realistically, I probably won't transfer because at my current school I have a place to live in the summers and a good relationship with my professors, but I will look for sure. Thank you. 

On 3/28/2018 at 10:15 PM, sacklunch said:

Again, against the others, we should not forget the differences between successful M* (divinity) and doctoral applicants (religious studies). 

More to the point, though: successfully going from an unknown undergraduate to ivy-divinity or even ivy-PhD religious studies doesn't say much about the weight of undergraduate prestige. My main point of evidence here, mentioned above, is the number of applicants from unknown schools to both M* and PhD are much higher than TT schools. For example, take a look here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/opinion/the-humanities-in-crisis-not-at-most-schools.html

The point is that undergraduates at ivy/TT schools are increasingly moving away from the humanities, while interest in the humanities has remained more or less the same at smaller/unknown schools over the past few decades, though high ranking public schools also appear to remain constant (Berkeley). The result is, I gather, fewer TT-BA-holders are applying to graduate degrees in the humanities, while there are more applicants to humanities graduate degrees from unknown schools. Yes, I understand that the OP is not talking about applying as a transfer to Yale (not even possible). I'm merely pointing out that we cannot adequately measure whether or not UG prestige matters given the applicant pool. My guess is that, yes, it mattered before to some academics and now perhaps a bit more. /rant2

This is a super interesting article and I hadn't even considered implications on hiring because I was so hung up on implications for grad school (sigh, another thing to worry about). It is really good to see that and be aware of it now though, I will just have to keep making myself competitive. 

20 hours ago, sacklunch said:

Some good points. But, again, we simply cannot say how much it matters for getting into a high ranking M* or PhD given the available evidence. All the evidence offers is that there are very low numbers of high ranking UG applicants to graduate degrees in religion, meaning that applicants from unknown UG schools are the majority. But you're right in that because the majority are from unknowns, it won't necessarily decrease one's chances for getting into a high ranking M* and perhaps even PhD. Assuming this disparity in UG backgrounds, it may be significant that a relatively high number of PhD students whom I know at TT programs come from known UG schools, some ivies, but many from top 50-ish. I mean that the percentage of current PhD students from top 50-ish UG at TT schools is higher than the percentage of these type of students applying (e.g. let's say 25% of phd students in Stanford's religion program come from top 50 UG, while at the level of applications this percentage is more like 10%). This is, of course, not to say that this higher percentage simply reflects UG prestige. Anyways! I agree with most of the comments here. My hesitation is that UG prestige doesn't matter or that it has only a very small impact. For the OP, much of this is moot; I happily concede that prestige makes less and less of a difference the lower you climb the rankings. 

<3

Again, all of this makes a lot of sense. I do for sure think that UG prestige makes a difference and to claim it doesn't would be willfully ignorant, I guess it's good to know it doesn't damn one either. 
I really appreciate your feedback on the M* vs. Mdiv, specifically. It's good to know that it impacts M* more than Mdiv, which is what I figured but wasn't sure. I will just have to make myself more competitive and apply to a few safety schools, as well as make sure I do more prep work on my GRE this summer. 

thank you for all the feedback, it's good to hear from different people, especially from people already in graduate school. 

[lhgr]

On 3/28/2018 at 1:36 PM, MattSolo said:

As someone who got into 7/9 top schools applied (including Yale) but was from an obscure small Christian university, I'm gonna have to agree with the majority here. Where you go for undergrad does not matter as much when applying to Masters programs. Rather, if you're at a small school, try to use it to your advantage. Can you take multiple majors (looks like your a double major, good)? Do it. Because of the crossovers in the differing degree programs and the fact that my school counts different majors as separate degrees, I was able to graduate with a number of distinct bachelors degrees in a host of interrelated subjects (Religion, Archaeology, Philosophy, etc). I'm convinced that played a positive role in attracting certain schools. Likewise, get published. Submit a paper to a journal (and then submit some more) before your apps for Masters, and in doing so you will not only impress them somewhat more than people from better schools with no publications, but you will also have your writing sample (kill two birds with one stone). Join national honor societies at your school (and not just their general honors program) and use your small school to your advantage in order to keep a strong high gpa. Become involved in whatever opportunities you can find. And most important: create very close relationships with professors who will bend over backwards in their LOR to praise you in-detail about all of your accomplishments. All of that means far more than anything a mere transfer of schools could offer.

That is one good thing about this school, they took my IB credits well and the degrees overlap an amount that allows me to get multiple. 
I will work on getting published before I apply, that's a good point. I will start the heavy research now and hopefully be able to get published by the end of my Junior year so it can go on my application. I will join the honors society and keep up my GPA, as well as maintain these relationships with my professors. I really appreciate this feedback. Congrats on all the good news and I hope I can say the same in the future. 

On 3/28/2018 at 9:07 PM, seung said:

My undergrad was at a school most people have probably never heard of. I took advantage of being at a school school by building close relationships with my professors, something that not only helped me with my recommendations, but also made for a great educational experience.  Their great letters got me into a top tier masters program.  And now I'm in my top choice doctoral program.

Congrats on the graduate school success! It's good to see a success story from a little school. I will keep working towards those relationships and learning everything I can from them. thank you! 

On 3/28/2018 at 9:34 PM, Rabbit Run said:

To echo what others have said, I went to a small liberal arts school that's not really known outside the region, did well, was able to develop relationships with professors and got into multiple top Masters programs. The sort of institution you go to at the Bachelors level isn't as significant in religion. Of course, a BA from an Ivy League school (or a Chicago, Duke,  Stanford etc.) will look good come Ph.D. applications and job searches, but the advantage of transferring into a more prestigious undergrad is marginal at best since what matters at this stage is cultivating relationships with professors who can write good LORs for you and help you become a better writer.

Congrats on getting into such good programs. I've said it before in this thread but I am being genuine, I hope I can say the same in a few years. I will take advantage of the relationship I have with my professors. Thank you. 

22 hours ago, ChristoWitch87 said:

I agree that it will matter at the absolute highest levels of academia. That is to say, if OP is dead set on getting an M* from HDS, then a PhD from HDS, so he can teach religion at Harvard, then sure, an Ivy UG matters. But I think it affects the calculus the most for that last part; teaching at an Ivy. Getting into one for an M* it won't matter much, for a PhD it will matter a bit but more as a tie breaker. I think if an adcomm is looking for a guy for a PhD in NT, they will take the unknown UG with a good M* and 3 years of Greek all A's over an Ivy UG with less focused training. Now, are there some candidates who have all those things going for them? Sure, but for the reasons you posted not as many as we may think.

As an aside, I think the reasons for this phenomena are generational and socio-economic. I imagine the children of Ivy UGs (there are exceptions) probably grew up with more specific expectations in terms of profession and earnings. First generation college students tend to have a more untouched concept of the American Dream (get a degree and it will work out). I also think Ministry is for some people a way to change the paradigm of their family legacy. Military service, ministry, and to an extent law among a few other professions come with a fair amount of social capital that can help reverse negative generational trends. This and a more personal understanding of suffering probably explain the low and middle class, non-elite backgrounds of those in religious and ministerial vocations even at elite schools. 

This makes sense, I'm not deadset on teaching at an Ivy League or anything. Obviously that would be nice but in the end, getting into a grad school is my main worry. 

I totally agree with your second paragraph as well. I if I had the money (and therefore the opportunity), I would be at an Ivy League, but I didn't so I'm not. All I have to worry about right now is getting into a good grad school. 

[NTAC321]

These are good questions, and your concern for them at this stage in the game shows me that you’re on the right track. I’d like to add some advice from my experience and knowledge of the field that may be of use. I also want to push back on some of the above opinions, and one in particular.

You should not publish. Anywhere. This remains true until you’re an advanced M* student with some reason to think your perspective is well-enough informed so as not to embarrass your future scholarly self. This is advice I’ve heard from several profs from various top tear schools, and I honestly don’t know of an exception to the rule. Publishing as an M* student is one thing, but publishing before your BA is a mistake. Ask your own faculty and ask PhD students in your field at the schools you want to one day attend.

I’ve been on admissions panels and have heard what senior faculty at top schools are looking for in their M* students: relevant language/field work experience (whichever is applicable for your subfield), a solid foundation in the discipline (evidenced via a clear personal statement and sound writing sample) and, more than probably anything else, strong, strong letters of recommendation from faculty (preferably well-known faculty in your field if possible). As mentioned above, directed research projects with such faculty are very valuable here.

Ask anyone on the job market in RS and they’ll tell you that one’s undergraduate institution counts, and likely more than it should. I’ll curtail the rant here, but it’s ridiculous to put such a high value on one’s undergraduate institution when the process of undergraduate admissions is so hopelessly determined by one’s social location. Of course it’s better for an applicant to have an AB from Harvard not a BA from UMass, but when two applicants are equally qualified, choosing the Harvard alum will almost always mean choosing the one whose parents paid for several SAt tests, a admissions coach, private lessons, rides to and from extracurriculars, not to mention elite secondary school. 

In your case, I’d say that transferring from, let’s say, a regional school ranked #200 to another school ranked around #150 won’t really move the meter in one direction or the other. Take the cheaper option as long as you can get the relevant training necessary for your subfield. Volunteer somewhere that shows you care about humanity, become a teaching assistant if you can, learn a hard skill like manuscript editing, get another language on your transcript, help the world and work on digital humanities projects, things that make the case for you being an interesting person with interesting ideas and a record of hard work.

Best of luck!
 

[hats]

School B is a problem; Chinese is better than Japanese for you. B should be right out. 

School C might be okay, but I'm not sure what school C gets you that A does not. Do any of the professors who are offering to do independent studies with you at A study anything that's at all connected with Buddhism or China? (I feel like you would've mentioned it if one of them had experience with Tibetan studies.)

Real talk, though: do you know any Tibetan? Can you find a way to start learning Tibetan on your own? Are there internet resources that are good enough for you to start with, or can you take summer classes at another university? For example, you DO NOT need to attend an institution to be able to access their summer language-learning FLAS scholarship funds. I never did it as an undergraduate, but I believe you would be eligible to apply for tuition and a stipend (do undergrads get the stipends?) to learn Tibetan over the summer at e.g. University of Wisconsin, no matter where you study during the school year. The deadline has passed for that scholarship for this year, and this is the year that FLAS centers might change universities (so in 2019, it's possible that the University of Michigan, not UW, would be offering those Tibetan scholarships and/or classes, for example). Unless the federal government closes the FLAS program, you should apply to every funded Tibetan language opportunity you can find for summer 2019.

I feel uneasy even mentioning this, but if you stay with school A and have that little debt, it might be worth saving up from a job for and/or taking out a very limited amount of loans to pay for a Tibetan summer program yourself, once and only once. I'd advise against worrying about that this summer if you have anything else going on in your life that makes you money, gives you experience, or just generally doesn't require LOANS, but it might help you enough to be worth it at some point....once.

When @NTAC321 talks about language experience, there are ways.

[lhgr]

On 3/30/2018 at 4:55 PM, NTAC321 said:

These are good questions, and your concern for them at this stage in the game shows me that you’re on the right track. I’d like to add some advice from my experience and knowledge of the field that may be of use. I also want to push back on some of the above opinions, and one in particular.

You should not publish. Anywhere. This remains true until you’re an advanced M* student with some reason to think your perspective is well-enough informed so as not to embarrass your future scholarly self. This is advice I’ve heard from several profs from various top tear schools, and I honestly don’t know of an exception to the rule. Publishing as an M* student is one thing, but publishing before your BA is a mistake. Ask your own faculty and ask PhD students in your field at the schools you want to one day attend.

I’ve been on admissions panels and have heard what senior faculty at top schools are looking for in their M* students: relevant language/field work experience (whichever is applicable for your subfield), a solid foundation in the discipline (evidenced via a clear personal statement and sound writing sample) and, more than probably anything else, strong, strong letters of recommendation from faculty (preferably well-known faculty in your field if possible). As mentioned above, directed research projects with such faculty are very valuable here.

Ask anyone on the job market in RS and they’ll tell you that one’s undergraduate institution counts, and likely more than it should. I’ll curtail the rant here, but it’s ridiculous to put such a high value on one’s undergraduate institution when the process of undergraduate admissions is so hopelessly determined by one’s social location. Of course it’s better for an applicant to have an AB from Harvard not a BA from UMass, but when two applicants are equally qualified, choosing the Harvard alum will almost always mean choosing the one whose parents paid for several SAt tests, a admissions coach, private lessons, rides to and from extracurriculars, not to mention elite secondary school. 

In your case, I’d say that transferring from, let’s say, a regional school ranked #200 to another school ranked around #150 won’t really move the meter in one direction or the other. Take the cheaper option as long as you can get the relevant training necessary for your subfield. Volunteer somewhere that shows you care about humanity, become a teaching assistant if you can, learn a hard skill like manuscript editing, get another language on your transcript, help the world and work on digital humanities projects, things that make the case for you being an interesting person with interesting ideas and a record of hard work.

Best of luck!
 

Thank you for your response, sorry for not responding sooner. 
I never thought about that and it's super good you let me know that. It does make sense, it's the honors college at my school that is pushing for publication but if it's going to damage my opportunity, I will stick to presenting at conferences. 
I agree with everything you said about how unfortunate it is for the BA institution to count the way that it does. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have, I guess. 
I just got a job as a teaching assistant and I do volunteer, but I will dig my hands in deeper and keep working to develop my CV and myself. 
Thank you again! 

On 4/4/2018 at 6:01 PM, hats said:

School B is a problem; Chinese is better than Japanese for you. B should be right out. 

School C might be okay, but I'm not sure what school C gets you that A does not. Do any of the professors who are offering to do independent studies with you at A study anything that's at all connected with Buddhism or China? (I feel like you would've mentioned it if one of them had experience with Tibetan studies.)

Real talk, though: do you know any Tibetan? Can you find a way to start learning Tibetan on your own? Are there internet resources that are good enough for you to start with, or can you take summer classes at another university? For example, you DO NOT need to attend an institution to be able to access their summer language-learning FLAS scholarship funds. I never did it as an undergraduate, but I believe you would be eligible to apply for tuition and a stipend (do undergrads get the stipends?) to learn Tibetan over the summer at e.g. University of Wisconsin, no matter where you study during the school year. The deadline has passed for that scholarship for this year, and this is the year that FLAS centers might change universities (so in 2019, it's possible that the University of Michigan, not UW, would be offering those Tibetan scholarships and/or classes, for example). Unless the federal government closes the FLAS program, you should apply to every funded Tibetan language opportunity you can find for summer 2019.

I feel uneasy even mentioning this, but if you stay with school A and have that little debt, it might be worth saving up from a job for and/or taking out a very limited amount of loans to pay for a Tibetan summer program yourself, once and only once. I'd advise against worrying about that this summer if you have anything else going on in your life that makes you money, gives you experience, or just generally doesn't require LOANS, but it might help you enough to be worth it at some point....once.

When @NTAC321 talks about language experience, there are ways.

I do have one professor who would offer to do independent studies at School A who would do something with Buddhism in China. He's teaching Chinese PHL and a lot of his research looks at Buddhism and peace building, but he's an East Asia religionist so I am sure he could/would do this. 

I honestly had not even thought about learning Tibetan now, but it seems like a no brainer looking at your message. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I will look into this FLAS program and aim for next summer, and until then I will starting looking for ways to study it now. Thank you, I've never heard of this and I appreciate it. 

I will work this summer and have for traveling and presenting research/an abroad trip to Japan. I will make sure this is top on my list for next summer. 

Thank you.