How many is too many?

[historygeek]

Hi everyone! I'm starting to narrow down my grad school choices. I had initially thought of applying to 10-12, but many people have said that that's probably a bit too many schools. My interests are the history of Italian women in Italy and the US during the twentieth century (I'm also interested in just Italian-American history and the UK). Any help (or program suggestions) would be great! 

I was thinking of applying to the programs at:

• Columbia (my top choice, working with De Grazia/Hallett/Chauncey/Kobrin/Ngai) 
• NYU (working with Diner/Ben-Ghiat/Gordon/Nolan) 
• Harvard (working with Cohen/Clutario/Cott/McGirr) 
• UCLA (working with Reiff/Higbie) 
• UC Davis (working with Dickinson/Materson/Tsu/Oropeza) 
• Indiana (working with Ipsen/Roos/Pergher/Gamber/Johnson)
• Michigan (working with Chin/Gaggio/Simmons) 
• University College London (working with Körner/Sutcliffe-Braithwaite/Jennings) 
• Loyola Chicago (working with Cardoza/Gorn/Frateriggo) 
• WashU STL (working with Garb/Flowe)
• Edinburgh (working with Ugolini/Jackson) 

[psstein]

3 hours ago, historygeek said:

Hi everyone! I'm starting to narrow down my grad school choices. I had initially thought of applying to 10-12, but many people have said that that's probably a bit too many schools. My interests are the history of Italian women in Italy and the US during the twentieth century (I'm also interested in just Italian-American history and the UK). Any help (or program suggestions) would be great! 

I was thinking of applying to the programs at:

• Columbia (my top choice, working with De Grazia/Hallett/Chauncey/Kobrin/Ngai) 
• NYU (working with Diner/Ben-Ghiat/Gordon/Nolan) 
• Harvard (working with Cohen/Clutario/Cott/McGirr) 
• UCLA (working with Reiff/Higbie) 
• UC Davis (working with Dickinson/Materson/Tsu/Oropeza) 
• Indiana (working with Ipsen/Roos/Pergher/Gamber/Johnson)
• Michigan (working with Chin/Gaggio/Simmons) 
• University College London (working with Körner/Sutcliffe-Braithwaite/Jennings) 
• Loyola Chicago (working with Cardoza/Gorn/Frateriggo) 
• Wash U STL (working with Garb/Flowe)
• Edinburgh (working with Ugolini/Jackson) 

I don't want to discourage you, but I'd strongly recommend looking at each of these program's placement statistics and making your choices accordingly. Some of these programs I'd wholeheartedly endorse (Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, Michigan). Others I would only do so with significant reservation (Indiana, UCL). Still others I would not recommend at all (Loyola). Unless you already have a very clear idea of what you want to do, UK PhDs are not a great bet. The funding tends to be spotty for foreigners and they don't offer much (if any) experience outside of strict research. When American universities hire, they like their candidates to have some teaching experience.

Keep in mind, also, that your interests will likely change a bit in grad school. I came in as an early modernist and now I'm doing 19th/20th century American medicine.

You're going about this the right way in thinking ahead to assembling a committee, something I, and I'd wager most grad students, didn't do.

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by psstein

[historygeek]

14 minutes ago, psstein said:

I don't want to discourage you, but I'd strongly recommend looking at each of these program's placement statistics and making your choices accordingly. Some of these programs I'd wholeheartedly endorse (Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, Michigan). Others I would only do so with significant reservation (Indiana, UCL). Still others I would not recommend at all (Loyola). Unless you already have a very clear idea of what you want to do, UK PhDs are not a great bet. The funding tends to be spotty for foreigners and they don't offer much (if any) experience outside of strict research. When American universities hire, they like their candidates to have some teaching experience.

Keep in mind, also, that your interests will likely change a bit in grad school. I came in as an early modernist and now I'm doing 19th/20th century American medicine.

You're going about this the right way in thinking ahead to assembling a committee, something I, and I'd wage most grad students, didn't do.

 

Yeah, Loyola is at the bottom of my list and will more than likely be cut (unless I apply to their MA program, which is unlikely). I think I’ll also probably pass on the schools in the UK as well; everything else aside, it’d be a logistical nightmare. 

[psstein]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:37 PM, historygeek said:

Yeah, Loyola is at the bottom of my list and will more than likely be cut (unless I apply to their MA program, which is unlikely). I think I’ll also probably pass on the schools in the UK as well; everything else aside, it’d be a logistical nightmare. 

You should email your potential advisors at each institution and determine whether or not they're accepting graduate students in this coming cycle. One of mine (Grafton) was retiring, and the other (Marcus) had just been hired and wasn't able to take grad students.

Keep in mind that nothing anyone says is gospel.

[Sigaba]

5 hours ago, historygeek said:

Hi everyone! I'm starting to narrow down my grad school choices....Any help ... would be great! 

Don't neglect looking at what kinds of archives are available at the schools of interest and nearby. Analog > digital. 

Keep an eye on the faculty rosters of history departments that are close by. Some programs allow for committee members from neighboring institutions. You'll definitely want to read the fine print and learn the lay of the land before going down this path. 

Learn what you can about a department's culture and how you might fit in. Do you need community and collegiality? Do you want people to leave you alone most of the time? Will you mind if professors treat graduate students like "indentured servants"?

Try to get a sense of how demanding the language requirements may be. Who will administer your proficiency exams? The Italian department? The history department? Or a professor who is going to rattle your cage because that's the way she learned to do things.

Also, if you've not done so already, do what you can to find the masterwork(s) in your fields of interest and then diagram intellectual "family trees." You may find that Professors Big Deal, Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread, and Been There Done That have all been influenced by Professor You've Never Heard Of and she's really the one who has what you need.

The following recommendation may generate some controversy. Focus less on individuals with whom you'd like to study and more on how the portfolios of faculty members fit together. A lot can happen between the time you receive an enthusiastic reply to an email of inquiry. What's your back up plan if the professors you most want on your committee end up not being on your committee--just because?

[Tigla]

9 hours ago, psstein said:

Unless you already have a very clear idea of what you want to do, UK PhDs are not a great bet. The funding tends to be spotty for foreigners and they don't offer much (if any) experience outside of strict research. When American universities hire, they like their candidates to have some teaching experience.

 

Yes and no. Funding will be the biggest issue for going abroad because of the UK immigration system. Interestingly, most UK universities offer the chance to teach your own classes after your first year. In fact, some programs provide a series of seminars in your first year to prepare PhD students to teach their classes. The issue comes about because the UK pushes research over teaching to the point of neglecting the teaching aspect. Without a doubt, teaching remains the largest question mark (in my mind) about UK programs, but can easily be mitigated if the student is prepared to take the extra workload.

@historygeek, I suggest finding some mid-level universities. You are focusing on most of the top universities that are going to receive hundreds of applications. I would start looking at the PhD programs your potential advisers attended. Also, start branching out from Italian history and focus on your secondary interests. These universities may not be ideal, but engaging with historians who are broadly interested in your area can stimulate your work and ideas. You may also change your entire research project. In short, spread the word and engage with a broader field.

[AP]

On 12/9/2017 at 4:33 AM, AP said:

I'm self-citing here from Sept 4:

My response is always the same: as many as you can afford money-wise and application-materials-wise.  

 

On 9/4/2017 at 10:18 AM, AP said:

My response is always the same: as many as you can afford money-wise and application-materials-wise. 

 

[TMP]

Great suggestions above.  I'd branch out to "Mediterranean" from just "italy". Italy shares more with its neighbors to either side of it, not quite with the German-speaking world just above it.

As for schools, just my feedback:

• NYU (working with Diner/Ben-Ghiat/Gordon/Nolan) I'd strike this out if Diner is your intended person of contact-- she does have a zillion of students.  
• Michigan (working with Chin/Gaggio/Simmons) Doesn't Chin tend to focus mostly on mid-20th century German history? I'd consider swapping her for Pamela Ballinger who is more Italian/Mediterranean oriented when it comes to human mobility.

I generally agree with @AP's advice on number of schools but I'd roughly suggest no more than 8.  The process itself is really exhausting.  I would start filling out the online applications ASAP so they are pretty much done by the time you're ready to upload the perfectly tailored SOP and general writing sample.

[historygeek]

20 minutes ago, TMP said:

Great suggestions above.  I'd branch out to "Mediterranean" from just "italy". Italy shares more with its neighbors to either side of it, not quite with the German-speaking world just above it.

As for schools, just my feedback:

• NYU (working with Diner/Ben-Ghiat/Gordon/Nolan) I'd strike this out if Diner is your intended person of contact-- she does have a zillion of students.  
• Michigan (working with Chin/Gaggio/Simmons) Doesn't Chin tend to focus mostly on mid-20th century German history? I'd consider swapping her for Pamela Ballinger who is more Italian/Mediterranean oriented when it comes to human mobility.

I generally agree with @AP's advice on number of schools but I'd roughly suggest no more than 8.  The process itself is really exhausting.  I would start filling out the online applications ASAP so they are pretty much done by the time you're ready to upload the perfectly tailored SOP and general writing sample.

These are great suggestions; I'll keep them in mind. Yes, I'm planning on writing the SOP soon! 

[OHSP]

I’m at NYU and happy to talk—I chose to go there over supposedly better schools and it was the right decision for me. Re women’s/gender history though you’re slightly off re faculty. Nolan and Gordon are both retiring (Nolan this semester and Gordon very soon), and Diner is really not quite working in the areas you’re describing. Perhaps beyond region and topic etc think about the kind of work you want to produce, whether you’re a traditional historian or not etc etc. I’m very much not and that’s why it was a better school for me—

[psstein]

22 minutes ago, OHSP said:

Perhaps beyond region and topic etc think about the kind of work you want to produce, whether you’re a traditional historian or not etc etc. I’m very much not and that’s why it was a better school for me—

This is a great point and a big part of what's drawn me towards my advisor/current area of work. Had I stayed in early modern, I would've ended up doing something heavily situated within material culture/the literary turn, which does not interest me nearly as much.

[historygeek]

12 hours ago, OHSP said:

I’m at NYU and happy to talk—I chose to go there over supposedly better schools and it was the right decision for me. Re women’s/gender history though you’re slightly off re faculty. Nolan and Gordon are both retiring (Nolan this semester and Gordon very soon), and Diner is really not quite working in the areas you’re describing. Perhaps beyond region and topic etc think about the kind of work you want to produce, whether you’re a traditional historian or not etc etc. I’m very much not and that’s why it was a better school for me—

I actually emailed Diner; she responded very positively that my interests fit with hers. 

[historygeek]

On 5/17/2018 at 8:03 AM, Tigla said:

 

@historygeek, I suggest finding some mid-level universities. You are focusing on most of the top universities that are going to receive hundreds of applications. I would start looking at the PhD programs your potential advisers attended. Also, start branching out from Italian history and focus on your secondary interests. These universities may not be ideal, but engaging with historians who are broadly interested in your area can stimulate your work and ideas. You may also change your entire research project. In short, spread the word and engage with a broader field.

Yes, I've been thinking about mid-level programs I could apply to. Does anyone have any suggestions? 

I was thinking Boston College, George Washington... I have no idea. 

[psstein]

5 hours ago, historygeek said:

Yes, I've been thinking about mid-level programs I could apply to. Does anyone have any suggestions? 

I was thinking Boston College, George Washington... I have no idea. 

Don't think of PhD apps like undergrad apps. There aren't "reach," "match," and "safety" schools. They simply don't exist: grad admissions are much more arbitrary and based upon factors far beyond your control. If you're going to apply to mid-tier programs, save yourself the time and apply to funded MAs. I'm persuaded you're a strong candidate for a top program. If you write well, you've got a good chance.

I'm not being overly dramatic when I say the difference between Columbia and Boston College could be the difference between a tenured job and adjunct hell. If you want an academic career, you're better off confining yourself to the best programs in the field.

[OHSP]

15 hours ago, historygeek said:

I actually emailed Diner; she responded very positively that my interests fit with hers. 

That's good but it's also worth taking seriously the advice of people already at the specific school in your field, especially if you're specifically seeking it out on boards like these. Definitely feel free to get in touch and I can share my experience of being a grad student at NYU in fields somewhat similar to yours.

Edited May 19, 2018 by OHSP

[Tigla]

5 hours ago, psstein said:

Don't think of PhD apps like undergrad apps. There aren't "reach," "match," and "safety" schools. They simply don't exist: grad admissions are much more arbitrary and based upon factors far beyond your control. If you're going to apply to mid-tier programs, save yourself the time and apply to funded MAs. I'm persuaded you're a strong candidate for a top program. If you write well, you've got a good chance.

I'm not being overly dramatic when I say the difference between Columbia and Boston College could be the difference between a tenured job and adjunct hell. If you want an academic career, you're better off confining yourself to the best programs in the field.

And competing with over 400 applicants per round and probably 10-15 who applied to work with the same professor as you. If the professor took on an applicant in the last 2 years, then more than likely you will not be accepted regardless of how well you fit into a school. Of course, pick a handful of top programs to apply to, but don't fill your entire portfolio with only top tier programs; that is a recipe to never be accepted and never be allowed to put your own ideas forward.

[historygeek]

10 hours ago, OHSP said:

That's good but it's also worth taking seriously the advice of people already at the specific school in your field, especially if you're specifically seeking it out on boards like these. Definitely feel free to get in touch and I can share my experience of being a grad student at NYU in fields somewhat similar to yours.

I certainly didn’t mean to come off as dismissive of your feedback— I really appreciate it. I was just trying to share the information that I had received. 

[dr. t]

6 hours ago, Tigla said:

And competing with over 400 applicants per round and probably 10-15 who applied to work with the same professor as you. If the professor took on an applicant in the last 2 years, then more than likely you will not be accepted regardless of how well you fit into a school. Of course, pick a handful of top programs to apply to, but don't fill your entire portfolio with only top tier programs; that is a recipe to never be accepted and never be allowed to put your own ideas forward.

This is... not correct. Remember, as always, that the goal isn't to get into graduate school. The goal is to get a job when you get out of graduate school. 

Only apply to top-tier programs with good hiring records (redundant).

Edited May 19, 2018 by telkanuru

[psstein]

1 hour ago, telkanuru said:

This is... not correct. Remember, as always, that the goal isn't to get into graduate school. The goal is to get a job when you get out of graduate school. 

Only apply to top-tier programs with good hiring records (redundant).

Just to bang on a little bit more, here are two placement records (mid tier vs. top tier).

Boston College's placement record: https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/mcas/departments/history/graduate/phd-program/placement/recent-history-phd-graduates.html

Princeton's: https://history.princeton.edu/academics/graduate/alumni/placement-upon-graduation

Not even close to comparable, especially in a tough job market.

Edited May 19, 2018 by psstein

[historygeek]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I’m definitely applying to Columbia, Harvard, NYU, UCLA, and Michigan— hopefully my application will be strong enough. I’m a pretty strong writer if I do say so myself, but I still plan on starting a writing sample and my SOPs soon. 

[TMP]

41 minutes ago, historygeek said:

Thanks for the responses everyone! I’m definitely applying to Columbia, Harvard, NYU, UCLA, and Michigan— hopefully my application will be strong enough. I’m a pretty strong writer if I do say so myself, but I still plan on starting a writing sample and my SOPs soon. 

"Strong writer" will have a different meaning in graduate school  Don't get too ahead of your own judgment-- let others judge for you.

I'm going to PM you about NYU.

Edited May 19, 2018 by TMP