Why Grad school, anyway?

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

I just had an odd messenger conversation with a friend of mine (whom I am considering revising status to "acquaintance" after this conversation). It was one of those "cacth-up" conversations - we haven't spoken in a while. She is Israeli, so maybe it's a cultural thing (very few people here seem to value PhD's), but still.

I was blabbering about taking online Latin and prepping for my 2011 apps, (as well as working 4 jobs and climbing out of debt - not even close to as exciting, in my mind), and then said that the grad school thing is very thrilling. Not waiting for answers, but the process, the hope, the desire to go. You all know what I mean... otherwise we wouldn't be here. She said something like "all new beginnings are exciting."

And THEN, she says "I don't understand why you want to go back to school anyway" - which nearly floored me. So I answered that I want to teach college level English (and later graduate level), I want to research and publish, and that in my entire long life there hasn't been anything that thrilled me as much as studying / writing about / discussing English lit (and god knows I've done plenty of other things). So it seems obvious to go for a PhD.

She didn't get it, gave me an "I guess..." answer, and then said that she thinks that going to graduate school is a waste of time, especially since I now have a well-paying job, etc. My jaw dropped (and then she went off to lunch). How can LEARNING be a waste of time? How can pursuing your dreams be a waste of time? The one thing, I think, that the past 8-9 years have been signified by, was my brain going to waste. I have such an active mind, that I actually get depressed when I'm NOT learning, studying, and so forth. Most jobs, even in technical writing (which I do enjoy, overall), don't challenge my mind for more than 6 months (once I'm done learning the system). After that, it's just routine and deadline stress.

Maybe it is a cultural thing. I don't know. I've known that I would pursue graduate school at some point in my life since I was in college (maybe being the daughter of two academics had something to do with that), and maybe the Israeli attitude (except going to get your MBA so you can get a better job, better car, etc.) is what is coloring her opinion. I just CANNOT understand how learning - any learning - can be considered a waste of time.

Overall, I'm lucky. My parents, being academics themselves, are extremely understanding and supportive (although my dad is the doom-and-gloom type that keeps saying stuff about how hard it is to get a job afterward, which I already know...). My siblings understand, as well. But most of my friends JUST DON'T get it. It's SO different than what they do and think about, it's almost like they have no reference point. It's so odd.

So at the end of this long, rambling post - let me just add one last thing - THANK YOU GradCafe posters. Thank you for providing me with a community that understands my drive to go do this. Thank you for the support, the encouragement, and for sharing your knowledge. Thank you for being aspiring academics like myself, and providing me with a community of like-minded people!

[Swagato]

I'm from India. My earliest memory is watching a black and white film whose angles and lines seemed all wrong. I ended up having nightmares for almost a month. And then, I threw a tantrum till my grandfather put on "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari" for me again. The images were just so magnetic.

I don't know what perception you guys may have about the state of college education in India. I lived there for 18 years before I came to the US for my undergrad. I don't have a future there for film studies. I've had endless debates with various well-wishers about the wisdom of pursuing a field whose golden age is long past. I know, I know. Bergman, Antonioni, Hitchcock, they're all gone. Kael, Truffaut, gone too. No epic critic duels around. No glitzy future. So why, why would I risk my entire life -- and trust me, right now, it would be VERY difficult for me to re-establish a career back home -- for something so uncertain?

Because film is all I've ever known. Images moving on screen...sometimes I turn the volume off and just watch. The first time I went on a date, I naively invited the good lady over to enjoy "The Virgin Spring." It wasn't a long relationship. I come from a family comprising professors on both sides. Maybe it's in me. Analysis, heated discussion of absolutely arcane points, discovering outrageous things in everything and conjuring perfectly preposterously plausible cases for them...sorry, I think I just popped wood.

This is one of the worst times for me, and others like me. We're hemmed in by a brutal economy, starkly downsized university budgets, and an overage of applicants. And we're stuck in the humanities and no way to break the spell. I applied to most of the top film programs this time, and a few other lesser ranked ones. I'm anticipating a round rejection since I just have Emory and WUSTL to hear back from. I see posts describing Fulbright scholars and academic phenomenons getting rejected. I worry for the next round of applications. As it is, I fear I shall have to return home at least until I can reapply. The resources available to me won't really be much. Film studies is practically unheard of in modern Indian culture. I have GradCafe to thank for a lot of ideas I now have for refreshing and overhauling my application.

I didn't mean to make the thread about me. Guess I just wanted to say you're not alone in the pot, Branwen.

[gracieb]

Oh, I understand. I come from a conservative Jewish family. You can imagine the reaction when I said that I wasn't going to attend law school and that I was planning to get a PhD in medieval literature. I might as well have told them that I was getting a sex change operation and planned to pursue full-time prostitution in order to support my heroin addiction. My parents have come around and realized that it will be okay because they can still tell their friends I am a doctor (though I have a sneaking suspicion they will omit exactly what kind of doctor...) but the rest of my family constantly jokes about it. They are all very successful lawyers, doctors, and high powered buisness executives. They cannot understand why I would go to such lengths to get a degree that would not result in a fat pay check. In fact, my cousin was in town this past weekend and "jokingly" asked if I could translate a Newsweek article into Old English. Jerk. Also, because most of my family is extremely wealthy I am constantly asked how I plan to live off of a professor's salary and if my plan is to marry rich. It is sad, they cannot seem to understand that happiness is far more important than material wealth.

Oh, and as far as friends go, I think I get asked by virtually everyone who I discuss my career plans with if I intend to work at Renn. fest. This pisses me off more than anything, DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT THE RENNAISANCE AND THE MIDDLE AGES ARE TWO DIFFERENT PERIODS? omg. ok. I'll calm down now.

Point it, few people seem to really understand what goes in to this career path. So many people are so ignorant to just what it takes to get a PhD and then to make your way in this field. If only they knew...

[Str2T]

I'm probably at the other end of the spectrum. While I get tons of support, there is also a lot of pressure. My brother's in a PhD program at UNM, my cousins are in PhD programs all over the place, and a lot of my aunts and uncles teach at big name universities (in tech writing too!). They want me to succeed, but they never seemed to have trouble getting into PhD programs or getting tenure track jobs. My brother got into six of his seven Poli Sci programs with full stipends. My friend got into a bunch of law schools with full rides, including Baylor, and is turning it down because she decided last minute she wants to do psych! And here I am with one waitlist, a bunch of implicits, and waiting for one school. Frustrating! I told one of my letter writers that I had been waitlisted at one of the programs AND SHE ASKED ME WHAT THAT MEANT! Clearly these people didn't seem to have much, if any, trouble getting into PhD programs. Maybe I'm just used to getting my way, but I'm getting down and finding it hard to do work (let alone finish my thesis). Despite their support, I have started wondering if I'm really meant to continue on to a PhD. I was realistic coming into the process -- I didn't get double 800s on the GRE like my sibling -- so I chose programs I felt I had a good shot at. These people understand my want/need to get a PhD, they just don't understand the difficulties I'm encountering. One of my other letter writers told me not to break her streak of acceptances, as one of her other recomendees got into med school. No pressure...

[Medievalmaniac]

I am the first person in my family even to consider graduate school (PhD; there are several MBAs). I have always been odd one out in my family. I have never really fit in. I have never been able to explain that the only time I am really and truly alive (except for when I'm in the moment with my own kids) is when I am reading, researching, and teaching. I was always academically inclined, always encouraged to get good grades, but never really pushed or driven because of a "learned mediocrity" in my family dynamic. As an adult I have clawed my way out of that, and I know I will never be truly happy if I'm not somehow engaged in academia. Even now, I'd rather be talking grad school and researching and writing papers than anything else, obviously. Later this afternoon, I'm giving a two hour lecture to homeschoolers on the transmission of culture through literary texts in medieval Britain. That, prepping my classes for next term, and working on my paper for the International Medieval Congress are what constitute my week (we're off teaching this week) and I could not be more delighted. Those are the highlights of my week. I know you all will understand, but nobody in my family does.

My father supported me, but he died last May. My sister's response when I said "Right, I've got the MA, now I'm going to go for the PhD" was "You should have thought of that before you went and had kids! Grad school is too hard with a family. You can't just destroy your family like that. You just need to stop." Needless to say, I haven't really spoken to her or to my mother (who shares her views but won't actually say so) since then. My husband supports me...as long as we don't have to move and it doesn't inconvenience him too much. Oh - and as long as I get funding.

In short, I often feel trapped by my upbringing and discouraged by the people who should be my biggest supporters but who are mostly just indifferent at best, hostile at worst. I wish my dad were still here, but he's not. I'm on my own, and if this works it is going to be because I tackled and overcame insurmountable obstacles. And I feel like it just has to work, or I'll end up like one of those hundred-year-old books with uncut pages that nobody has ever read, a thing that has never truly served its purpose in this world.

So - I'm right there with you. I have certainly held down enough jobs to know with absolutely certainty that I want THIS job. Maybe that makes me crazy or really unrealistic, but I don't care, everybody thinks I am anyway (My mom: "medievalist? What does a medievalist even do? Who wants to be a medievalist?")

I DO.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Medievalmaniac

[UnlikelyGrad]

Str2T: I am so glad there's another person out there in my boat!

I have 3 siblings who went to grad school. At least 2 took the GRE back in the days before the Analytical Writing, and managed to get perfect scores on both Quantitative and Analytical. Thus, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when my mom called, asked what I got, and said: "What? Only one 800? Chrissy and Jim both got two!!" (Way to rain on my parade, Mom. I guess my 790 Verbal isn't an accomplishment to you.) The funny thing was that her next statement was: "I don't know what Courtney got though; she won't tell me for some reason." Really, Mom? She won't tell you for SOME REASON?

Oooh. I sense a blog post coming on...

[hadunc]

I can sympathize as well. Growing up my parents, but especially my Dad, really pushed me toward the sciences despite the fact that it was always very clear that my real aptitude was for reading and writing. Yet for some reason, my Dad would always disparage people who went for what he called "soft liberal arts degrees" and would tell me how worthless they were and that "any moron could get a PhD in English." HA!!

So when I started college I went for neuroscience, but after one semester completely deprived of literary study I became extremely unhappy and ended up dropping out to attend community college and figure out what I wanted to do with my life. It was there that I came across one of the best English professors I've ever had, and she took me under her wing and convinced me to change my major to English. There was quite a bit of fallout as a result of my decision, but my parents slowly came to accept it. And now that they've seen me go through this process twice I think they realize just how demanding and competitive it truly is. When I called my Dad to tell him about my first funded offer, he expressed his shock that a school would actually pay me to study literature (his way of telling me he's proud)

So I totally understand family/friends not getting it. Fortunately I have a partner who is extremely supportive and who kept pushing me to pursue my dreams even when I felt like giving up. I think the best you can do is absorb the positive and deflect the negative. God knows this process is already stressful enough!

[woolfie]

I completely understand, Branwen. It's very frustrating for a variety of reasons and I often wonder if choosing this route will result in me having to make a choice between old friends and family and then being completely alienated by them. My family doesn't really care what I do, they've never been controlling like some other people have indicated. But I see that there is this idea that what I'm doing is "haughty" or kind of snobby, even though I go out of my way to make sure I never give the impression that I think I'm 'better' or whatnot for trying to pursue an intellectual career. I think that our culture similtaneously respects high level degrees, but also there is a deep anti-intellectualism, at least in America right now. I have had a couple of random people at parties and stuff, friends of friends, hearing that I'm applying to graduate school, just go off on how academics are evil and that what I'm doing with my life is wrong. What gives people the right to just tell me that? Maybe that's a midwestern thing.

Anyway, what really gets me, is my one friend, who didn't go to college at all, and is doing just fine for herself (actually way better than me, she's got a family now and is in the process of buying a really nice house in a nice neighborhood) when I mention how I'm planning on being a professor someday, she always makes a point to express that it would be the "easy life" and it would be nice to have summers off and to have so much free time. And every time she says that I try not to get mad, and say, no, Emily, listen, it's not like that, it's intensely stressful, and I try to explain about pressure to publish, administrative duties, tenure acquisition, but she just doesn't listen to me. She thinks I'm just being defensive.

That one really gets me, that if I'm going to dedicate my life to something like this, that my friends and family think I'm just being lazy, choosing scholarship over the "real world" it just might make me crazy. But obviously there will be other academics to sympathize with. And the fact that I see it as a 'calling' the way nuns and preists talk about their vocation. I really can't do anything else with my life- I'm not an administrator, I'm in no way a business oriented person, this is the one thing I can do and do well.

And people who say that it's "wasting time" going "back" to school is silly. I feel like I'm wasting time NOT being in school. Because what am I doing just working an administrative job that I don't care about? I have no purpose here and my talent would decay if I stayed here.

Anyway, end rant.

[woolfie]

I am the first person in my family even to consider graduate school (PhD; there are several MBAs). I have always been odd one out in my family. I have never really fit in. I have never been able to explain that the only time I am really and truly alive (except for when I'm in the moment with my own kids) is when I am reading, researching, and teaching. I was always academically inclined, always encouraged to get good grades, but never really pushed or driven because of a "learned mediocrity" in my family dynamic. As an adult I have clawed my way out of that, and I know I will never be truly happy if I'm not somehow engaged in academia. Even now, I'd rather be talking grad school and researching and writing papers than anything else, obviously. Later this afternoon, I'm giving a two hour lecture to homeschoolers on the transmission of culture through literary texts in medieval Britain. That, prepping my classes for next term, and working on my paper for the International Medieval Congress are what constitute my week (we're off teaching this week) and I could not be more delighted. Those are the highlights of my week. I know you all will understand, but nobody in my family does.

My father supported me, but he died last May. My sister's response when I said "Right, I've got the MA, now I'm going to go for the PhD" was "You should have thought of that before you went and had kids! Grad school is too hard with a family. You can't just destroy your family like that. You just need to stop." Needless to say, I haven't really spoken to her or to my mother (who shares her views but won't actually say so) since then. My husband supports me...as long as we don't have to move and it doesn't inconvenience him too much. Oh - and as long as I get funding.

In short, I often feel trapped by my upbringing and discouraged by the people who should be my biggest supporters but who are mostly just indifferent at best, hostile at worst. I wish my dad were still here, but he's not. I'm on my own, and if this works it is going to be because I tackled and overcame insurmountable obstacles. And I feel like it just has to work, or I'll end up like one of those hundred-year-old books with uncut pages that nobody has ever read, a thing that has never truly served its purpose in this world.

So - I'm right there with you. I have certainly held down enough jobs to know with absolutely certainty that I want THIS job. Maybe that makes me crazy or really unrealistic, but I don't care, everybody thinks I am anyway (My mom: "medievalist? What does a medievalist even do? Who wants to be a medievalist?")

I DO.

I'm very sorry about your father, medievalmaniac. That must be rough, too about your mother and sister. I feel like people are so judgmental about women and their children esp when women try to have a career at the same time. I hope you don't listen to them and realize they just don't understand. I'm sure you have a great and loving family and that no one would bat an eye if your husband was the one pursuing a phd. It's really difficult- I am in a situation where I know that I am going to need 7-10 years right now to dedicate for school. And I am at an age where I need and want to have children in the next 5 years, but I also know I'm going to be going to school soon. So I really don't know what I am going to do, I feel like I have to make a choice between school/career and children/family. My partner is an MFA program right now, he'll graduate in a year and then we don't know what we're going to do as far as an income for ourselves, let alone supporting a family. It's even more rough, considering the fact that we are both trying to get jobs in academia in a tough time.

I don't really know what my point is, but I guess I'm just lamenting that family and personal relationships aren't set up to easily go to graduate school and start academic careers and the people who find a way just aren't understood by people who go the traditional route.

[hadunc]

I completely understand, Branwen. It's very frustrating for a variety of reasons and I often wonder if choosing this route will result in me having to make a choice between old friends and family and then being completely alienated by them. My family doesn't really care what I do, they've never been controlling like some other people have indicated. But I see that there is this idea that what I'm doing is "haughty" or kind of snobby, even though I go out of my way to make sure I never give the impression that I think I'm 'better' or whatnot for trying to pursue an intellectual career. I think that our culture similtaneously respects high level degrees, but also there is a deep anti-intellectualism, at least in America right now. I have had a couple of random people at parties and stuff, friends of friends, hearing that I'm applying to graduate school, just go off on how academics are evil and that what I'm doing with my life is wrong. What gives people the right to just tell me that? Maybe that's a midwestern thing.

Ugh, yes, totally know what you mean woolfie! I also live in the midwest and my fiance's family is what I'd call your classic midwestern blue collar conservative family. None of them have graduated from college, let alone gone to grad school (though for the most part they have successful careers probably making more money than I ever will as a professor!). I remember at a family gathering last year someone asked me what I wanted to do after college and I told them I planned on going for my PhD and the room went totally silent. Not a single person said a word to me for the rest of the day and I've pretty much gotten the cold shoulder ever since then. I'm not sure why it rubs them the wrong way, I'm far from an intellectual snob. The majority of my friends are not interested in pursuing any sort of higher education and I totally respect that. I just wish that my fiance's family (and others in general) would respect that scholarship has its merits too and that you can go to grad school and still be a "normal" person!

[woolfie]

Ugh, yes, totally know what you mean woolfie! I also live in the midwest and my fiance's family is what I'd call your classic midwestern blue collar conservative family. None of them have graduated from college, let alone gone to grad school (though for the most part they have successful careers probably making more money than I ever will as a professor!). I remember at a family gathering last year someone asked me what I wanted to do after college and I told them I planned on going for my PhD and the room went totally silent. Not a single person said a word to me for the rest of the day and I've pretty much gotten the cold shoulder ever since then. I'm not sure why it rubs them the wrong way, I'm far from an intellectual snob. The majority of my friends are not interested in pursuing any sort of higher education and I totally respect that. I just wish that my fiance's family (and others in general) would respect that scholarship has its merits too and that you can go to grad school and still be a "normal" person!

I know, right!? I really mean it when I say that everyone has a different course in life and it's just fine with me if people aren't interested in scholarship. I respect that people are different and have different skills. That's fine. But why don't other people think that about me? Why is it considered okay to denigrate someone for choosing an intellectual life? I wonder if it's some kind of preemptive thing, I think that some Midwesterners think that I am going to be snotty about their life so they preemptively try and denigrate academia. But the act of going to graduate school doesn't mean I automatically look down on other professions. But people seem to think it does. It's really depressing because I love the midwest and I'd like to stay here in a college town. But I don't know if I can deal with people looking at me in that way.

People from other areas: is it like that on the east/west coast, etc? Is this a red state thing or just an American thing? Or a human thing? I'm wondering if it's something I'm just going to have to live with no matter where I am. I also wonder if it's like that in places like the UK or France. I'm thinking not, though I've never been there.

[Sparky]

I think that our culture similtaneously respects high level degrees, but also there is a deep anti-intellectualism, at least in America right now. I have had a couple of random people at parties and stuff, friends of friends, hearing that I'm applying to graduate school, just go off on how academics are evil and that what I'm doing with my life is wrong. What gives people the right to just tell me that? Maybe that's a midwestern thing.

@ woolfie and anyone else interested, I cannot recommend highly enough Mark Noll's The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. Noll looks at how fundamentalist Christianity in America became so heavily anti-intellectual, and, more importantly (and more fun), he expands from that to explore the effects of that entrenchment on broader American culture. (That book description completely leaves out that second part, I know, but Alibris often has better deals than Amazon). During the 2004 and 08 elections, when "elite" and "intellectual" were being tossed around like they are some huge insults, I felt like quoting entire passages of that book to various acquaintances of mine.

@ gracieb, I think you will have to wear this shirt to all your family reunions.

[Str2T]

My father supported me, but he died last May. My sister's response when I said "Right, I've got the MA, now I'm going to go for the PhD" was "You should have thought of that before you went and had kids! Grad school is too hard with a family. You can't just destroy your family like that. You just need to stop." Needless to say, I haven't really spoken to her or to my mother (who shares her views but won't actually say so) since then. My husband supports me...as long as we don't have to move and it doesn't inconvenience him too much. Oh - and as long as I get funding.

In short, I often feel trapped by my upbringing and discouraged by the people who should be my biggest supporters but who are mostly just indifferent at best, hostile at worst. I wish my dad were still here, but he's not. I'm on my own, and if this works it is going to be because I tackled and overcame insurmountable obstacles. And I feel like it just has to work, or I'll end up like one of those hundred-year-old books with uncut pages that nobody has ever read, a thing that has never truly served its purpose in this world.

Medievalmaniac -- don't let others or the prospect of raising a family in a PhD program prevent you from chasing dreams. I know plenty of people that have 2+ children that are pursuing PhDs (as single parent and with only one parent with significant income). In my masters program right now, there are several students in that situation. They are also planning to continue on to a PhD and figure that somehow they'll make it work.

Profiles:

P. - single mother of two adolescents on her final year of an MA applying to lit phd programs (works 20 hours a week part time as well)

D. - mother of three living on a $10,000 dollar stipend with her husband making less than $30,000 a year

J. - mother of two young children (one still in diapers) applying to PhDs while her husband is finishing up his undergrad (I have no idea how they're making it financial but at least they are happy)

R. - one with a baby on the way in her first year in MA lit program, husband on GI bill finishing up undergrad (she's getting her second masters and planning to get a phd after that).

I'm not sure exactly how these people are doing it. Again, the normal stipend in 10 Gs (no health insurance). I assume they are taking out some amount of loans. But they are very happy! And our department(s) is very child-friendly (that might also be important). I remember the summer before I began the program being in a TA workshop with a newborn.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Str2T

[melusine]

People from other areas: is it like that on the east/west coast, etc? Is this a red state thing or just an American thing? Or a human thing? I'm wondering if it's something I'm just going to have to live with no matter where I am. I also wonder if it's like that in places like the UK or France. I'm thinking not, though I've never been there.

I know it was not the intent of anyone on this thread to be offensive in any way, but I really hate generalizations.

"places like" the UK or France might look small enough to you, when you compare their geographic surface to that of the US or Canada, but in reality, they are much more densely populated. Hence, the "mentality" as you call it, of people living in those "places" can vary radically from city to city, city to suburb, even neighborhood to neighborhood.

Although I grew up in Paris where it is, indeed, true that many people have a heightened level of respect for academia, I am also well aware that not all of France is Paris. There are many, many people who are perfectly happy going into the trades and view any kind of post-secondary degree as absolutely useless or highbrow/commie/too lazy to get a real job.

Same goes for, from my experience, Israel or Jewish culture in general.

While its true that a lot of Jewish families tend to push their kids towards "the professions", I've had several brilliant Jewish or Israeli literature profs who actively encouraged their students to continue studying literature, and even going so far as recommending some Israeli universities to the students that were interested.

The Hebrew University of Jerusalem has a pretty decent reputation worldwide, and boasts Claude Vigee as a faculty member for French lit.

Edited March 9, 2010 by melusine

[Pamphilia]

I know it was not the intent of anyone on this thread to be offensive in any way, but I really hate generalizations.

Thank you, Melusine. This is an interesting and largely thoughtful thread, but if the issue is that folks feel others are generalizing about us aspiring literary academics, I think we ought not generalize about others. Sharing one's specific experience is very helpful, but assuming that experience is universal (or regionally universal) is less so.

But to answer the original post: indeed. I am lucky to have the full though often clueless support of my immediate family, but so many others just don't get it. It can be terribly frustrating. I truly admire those of you who pursue your academic goals with so many obstacles (and obstinate people) trying to jump in your way.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Pamphilia

[woolfie]

Obviously I don't think that everyone everywhere is the same, otherwise I would be very bored by literature I meant a general, cultural belief, not that every single person would hold it. I should know, I come from a rural red state area and people there are very diverse. But there is still a general culture of anti-intellectualism. That doesn't mean that everyone believes it or takes part of it, but it's there. I also wasn't suggesting that the UK or France are 'smaller' or anything like that; in fact I didn't mention anything of the sort (I don't think). I'm sorry if I implied it. It is hard to communicate over message boards I think, without context of the person.

I am interested in different cultural attitudes so that's what I tend to think about. But I would never think that an individual from a certain place MUST have certain qualities. I don't think its unfair to say that the culture and place of academia in public society is considerably different in Europe than America, saying nothing of generalizing what individuals think about it. Perhaps I am wrong, and certainly I would welcome a more knowledgable person to explain so to me, but I don't think it's out of line to be talking about cultural attitudes in a wondering, accepting way.

Edited March 9, 2010 by woolfie

[Pamphilia]

It is hard to communicate over message boards I think, without context of the person.

Ain't it the truth?

[woolfie]

@ woolfie and anyone else interested, I cannot recommend highly enough Mark Noll's The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. Noll looks at how fundamentalist Christianity in America became so heavily anti-intellectual, and, more importantly (and more fun), he expands from that to explore the effects of that entrenchment on broader American culture. (That book description completely leaves out that second part, I know, but Alibris often has better deals than Amazon). During the 2004 and 08 elections, when "elite" and "intellectual" were being tossed around like they are some huge insults, I felt like quoting entire passages of that book to various acquaintances of mine.

Ooh, thanks, that book does sound interesting.

[melusine]

I also wasn't suggesting that the UK or France are 'smaller' or anything like that; in fact I didn't mention anything of the sort (I don't think). I'm sorry if I implied it. It is hard to communicate over message boards I think, without context of the person.

I know you didn't. I did. That was my way of illustrating the point that France and the UK, being geographically smaller, are also more densely populated and, therefore, in a sense more diverse.

Hence, my defensive attitude at having my particular area/social strata of origin being bunched together with a mass of dubiously relatable ones, under the monster-umbrella of "Europe" or "European".

Which is, by the way, a fairly recent construct (at least in the way it is being presented today). And in my opinion, a largely American one at that.

Talk to any "European" and you'll see most of us have a pretty clear-cut sense of national/ethnic/cultural belonging, with our one little issues, values and cultural manias.. Which also vary from group to group and area to area within our respective countries.

All this to say that saying there is such a thing as a "european" or even "french" or "british" mentality as opposed to an "american" one is, in my opinion, so blindly encompassing of many contradicting variables as to be largely inaccurate and sometimes harmful.

Sorry, very off topic now.

[woolfie]

I apologize if it sounded at all like I was categorizing anything in a negative or harmful way. I was trying to ask a question, not make a statement.

I'm just trying to ask people from other countries/regions/areas to share their experiences on the place of the academy and the role of the intellectual in their culture or public life.

[littlenell08]

Reading this post actually gave me a really nice feeling. I moved home after my BA and am missing my academic family very much, mostly because I'm pretty sure I'm the only one in a 10 mile radius hoping to pursue academia as a career. My friends don't get it, they're concentrating more on building families than careers, my mom sees pursuing an academic degree as a death blow for my credit score and the most unpratical move a young woman can make, and dad is sort of ignoring it because he doesn't think I'll actually get in (though I already DID, so I don't know where he's getting these ideas...)

It feels like everyone is sort of shaking their heads behind my back because I'm taking this risk, and they're assuming I'm going to fail. I think a lot of it goes back to the fact that I'm a first-generation college student, let alone a first-generation graduate student, and my immigrant mother doesn't understand why passion and love of my job is more important to me than a steady financial future with which I can support myself. I don't think she understands that I'm cool with being poor for a couple of years, this is what I love, and for me that's worth it.

Anyway, reading this post really gave me a little boost so thanks to everyone else who is struggling with these issues. It's tough knowing that when I come home in tears of happiness with an acceptance my mom is just standing there with crossed arms and a death glare, but it's nice to know I ain't the only one.

Keep it classy, ladies and gents.

[Satori]

I just wanted to let everyone who has posted here know that their stories are appreciated. Since I have a small child and two jobs with a wife that works, I also feel like I'm tempting the symplegades in applying to Ph.D. programs at this stage of my life. Not everyone understands, to put it mildly. And I'm competing with people that are much more mobile, sometimes younger and in many cases, from better universities with better scores. But since we're talking about Literature, we're also looking at a ubiquitous academic presence and similarly commonplace job availability. Since I don't have any illusion (or desire) to go Ivy and compete at the highest levels - I just want to study what I love and to teach - I believe I can make it work.

My confidence has increased by reading some of the stories here at least.

[minnares]

@ woolfie and anyone else interested, I cannot recommend highly enough Mark Noll's The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. Noll looks at how fundamentalist Christianity in America became so heavily anti-intellectual, and, more importantly (and more fun), he expands from that to explore the effects of that entrenchment on broader American culture. (That book description completely leaves out that second part, I know, but Alibris often has better deals than Amazon). During the 2004 and 08 elections, when "elite" and "intellectual" were being tossed around like they are some huge insults, I felt like quoting entire passages of that book to various acquaintances of mine.

Thanks for this recommendation, Sparky. I just added it to my GoodReads, sounds right up my ally.

I have a similar situation to many of you. My inlaws (who hate me) and my own father, stepmother, and stepsister all have masters or PhDs in the sciences. Then here I am wanting to get a PhD in English. They all think I'm an alien, wasting my time, being frivolous, incapable of pursuing "worthwhile" academic study (read: sciences or math). So, yeah, I get it. And Sparky, my dad's a fundamentalist Christian on top of being a physicist (how's that for a combination). So get the double wammy from him.

~ m

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Oh my, did I ever open up a can of worms with this post!!

Regardless of nationality, my idea of a friend is someone who is supportive of your dreams, whether they understand them or not. I feel the same way about family. Family members who are not supportive, as far as I'm concerned, don't get much attention from me. I'm super super lucky - I have an INCREDIBLY supportive family overall (give and take a few little quirks - but even my extremely picky grandfather - the Irish Catholic one, is very very supportive of my grad school goals, as is my dad, and my mom, and my extended family, even if they don't quite understand why). And my American friends that I've kept up with over the years were absolutely THRILLED for me when i started talking about pursuing a PhD.

Basically, the people who know me well, and know that I'm happiest with my nose stuck in a book, or teaching the book ("you should really be a teacher / college professor" is the most common comment I get from close friends and family), are supportive. I think I was shocked by the conversation with my friend this morning, since I thought she knew me well, but obviously, she doesn't.

re the cultural thing - my ex-bf, who's British, never really took my academic "bent" seriously. Whenever I would blather on about going to school in the UK (I was planning to move there at one time), he was supportive, but not gung-ho about it. Meaning - he would make the supportive sounds, but I could tell his heart wasn't in it, really, and that he'd much rather I become a brood mare and produce loads of children with him, while my mind atrophies. He barely finished high-school (although he is extremely smart), and I always suspected that he was extremely intimidated by my academic goals (i.e. get into Oxford and then teach). Obviously, his attitude doesn't reflect the British in any way, but it's extremely varied.

In Israel - we have five VERY respected universities. We have a few Nobel prize winners in the sciences, in economics, and Israelis are always very proud of them. But here's an anecdote, not related to my own experiences - a few years ago, I had a friend who was pursuing a PhD in History, here in Tel Aviv University. She was getting the "raised eyebrow" from just about everyone - her ex-husband, her friends, her parents. On the other hand, every single person I know that has gone to study law, medicine, or get an MBA has been wholeheartedly approved of. Not to say that there aren't brilliant academics here. But there is a prevalent underlying cultural attitude in which advanced studies in the humanities (science is ok, because you can get a GREAT hi-tech or bio-tech job) is considered to be a waste of time. Or at least... not a practical way to go through life.

Personally, I don't expect everyone to love the same stuff and want to do the same things. I respect my friend's enjoyment of her steady, calm job, watching and discussing the Israeli version of "Survivor" and "Big Brother" (think the US and UK versions and multiply the atrocities by a thousand), and never picking up a book. Dude, do what ever rocks your boat. Seriously. I don't tell her that I don't get why she DOESN'T use her brain for anything more complicated than analyzing the latest reality show. I don't go and tell her that I think "Big Brother" is a waste of time (although I do). I respect her choices. She's happy, I'm happy. For me, that's what friendship is all about.

It's tough for me sometimes, not having people to discuss the things I love with, yet another reason I can't wait to go to grad school. But the least I expect from my close friends and family is enthusiasm for MY enthusiasm, if you guys know what I mean (I'm sure you do). For all of you who share these feelings of semi-alienation - we will make new friends. Our families will see how happy we are, and lay off the criticism. And everyone else who isn't supportive... well... they can go to hell in a handbasket .

Thanks for sharing everyone! I really appreciate it!