Said-To-Be-Elite GRE Test Prep Company

[DrFaustus666]

Hi all,

For any of you who may remember me, I'm still not really satisfied with my most recent GRE score (740V 690Q).

Please, before anyone tells me that my undergraduate grades are more important and my GRE is already very good---my undergrad GPA of 2.7 from a 2nd-tier school STINKS---and I earned my BA in 1974, waay before most of youse people were born---or my letters or recommendation are really important---those are likely to be lukewarm too because of my personal situation, it's taken me five years to get half way thru a (second) master's degree. All of my 1st MA profs are retired, except one who died, and one of my 2nd MA profs recently retired.

So I'm putting all my eggs into hopes of getting a really superior, not just very good, but superior, stellar GRE score---hoping against hope that a top-notch school will forgive all if I explain the situation and show them I'm not a dummy and I'm not lazy, I've just had a lot more than my share of life-problems coupled with early immaturity.

To wit, regarding

http://www.greprep.org/

They're VERY expensive and intense, but they actually guarantee a 1300 score even if you come in sub 1000 .... I talked to a rep on the phone. They claim to have a very extensive and accurate diagnostic system plus an individually tailored instruction course plus TONS of required and individually targeted homework ...

The guy I talked to said he thought there'd be no problem for me, if I take their course, to hit the upper 700's, maybe even an 800, in Quantitative, which is my Achilles heel. He claimed they regularly get people who come in with 500Q and after their course, score over 700Q.

Has anyone used this company, and if so, what did you think?

John

[liszt85]

Hi all,

For any of you who may remember me, I'm still not really satisfied with my most recent GRE score (740V 690Q).

Please, before anyone tells me that my undergraduate grades are more important and my GRE is already very good---my undergrad GPA of 2.7 from a 2nd-tier school STINKS---and I earned my BA in 1974, waay before most of youse people were born---or my letters or recommendation are really important---those are likely to be lukewarm too because of my personal situation, it's taken me five years to get half way thru a (second) master's degree. All of my 1st MA profs are retired, except one who died, and one of my 2nd MA profs recently retired.

So I'm putting all my eggs into hopes of getting a really superior, not just very good, but superior, stellar GRE score---hoping against hope that a top-notch school will forgive all if I explain the situation and show them I'm not a dummy and I'm not lazy, I've just had a lot more than my share of life-problems coupled with early immaturity.

To wit, regarding

http://www.greprep.org/

They're VERY expensive and intense, but they actually guarantee a 1300 score even if you come in sub 1000 .... I talked to a rep on the phone. They claim to have a very extensive and accurate diagnostic system plus an individually tailored instruction course plus TONS of required and individually targeted homework ...

The guy I talked to said he thought there'd be no problem for me, if I take their course, to hit the upper 700's, maybe even an 800, in Quantitative, which is my Achilles heel. He claimed they regularly get people who come in with 500Q and after their course, score over 700Q.

Has anyone used this company, and if so, what did you think?

John

If you want to prove to yourself that you're not a dummy and that you need no special advantage (due to the fact that you can afford something like this), work harder and you'll get the score that you want.

[DrFaustus666]

If you want to prove to yourself that you're not a dummy and that you need no special advantage (due to the fact that you can afford something like this), work harder and you'll get the score that you want.

touché !

Fact is, I can't really afford it ... but I'm not getting any younger and I really do have a strong ego need (as you astutely divined !) to prove to myself that I'm not a dummy.

And, I'd like to do that not by means of a test score, but by earning a graduate degree from a top institution, then using that degree to do something more useful than my current job, which is writing ad hoc data warehouse reports for the Washington bureaucracy.

Your psychoperspicacity is uh, formidable, Liszt, no question.

[Summit_Bid]

I've never taken this particular GRE class before but I'm interested in the guaranteed part. I mean if for some reason you don't score that amount do you get your money back? If so then maybe it's a good investment.

I'd call the company and get some references to call and talk to in person.

I took a kinda expensive course too and in the analytical part I did my best but didn't really improve a ton ("studies" show this is typical). A lot of people were like, "see, you wasted all your money!", but the piece of mind I got over preparing so much and knowing I did everything I could was well worth it.

A lot people I know say a private tutor is better than classes.

Whatever you decide, best of luck to you.

[DrFaustus666]

I've never taken this particular GRE class before but I'm interested in the guaranteed part. I mean if for some reason you don't score that amount do you get your money back? If so then maybe it's a good investment.

I'd call the company and get some references to call and talk to in person.

I took a kinda expensive course too and in the analytical part I did my best but didn't really improve a ton ("studies" show this is typical). A lot of people were like, "see, you wasted all your money!", but the piece of mind I got over preparing so much and knowing I did everything I could was well worth it.

A lot people I know say a private tutor is better than classes.

Whatever you decide, best of luck to you.

Thanks.

Re the guarantee. No, you don't get your money back, but you can keep taking the class over and over again until you get the 1300. There are also a lot of restrictions. You must have completed all the pre-class and post-class homework, you must attend all classes and do all the work they tell you, and you must actually take the GRE within 6 months (I think) of finishing the class.

Even so, if someone comes in with the median score of approximately 480V and 570Q (1050 total) and increases his/her total score by 250 points, that is very significant indeed.

For myself, I'm trying to find any way to score above 1500, preferably above 1550, which I hope will offset all of the many serious flaws in what will be my application. (Low GPA from an unknown undergraduate institution, 30+ years since I graduated from that institution, no publications, no hot-shot references, and on and on and on.) Even that may well be a narcissistic pipe-dream. Many posters have reported 3.8+ GPAs from excellent undergraduate universities, pubs, internships, great recommendations, very good GREs, and STILL haven't made it into top ten programs.

Of course, some few (George W. Bush for example) have made it into big-name institutions with only so-so numbers, but I always suspect they must be the sons or daughters of alums, or of Senators, or have some other non-quantifiable advantage.

Again thanks for writing.

John

[scyrus]

A couple of points to consider:

• There's a decreasing marginal utility to these courses. That person you mentioned who increased his or her score by 250 points was only able to do so because that course had a lot to teach someone with such a low score. In your case, the course will probably be able to give you a few helpful hints but nothing ground-breaking, I'm sure.
• Getting your GRE Q up likely just requires more practice on your part(don't get Kaplan's Advanced Math Book though, they're either terrible editors or themselves don't know how to do basic math). Practice, find where you make careless mistakes(i'm sure you know all the math required and your score is probably just low due to careless errors/time), get faster at recognizing the type of problem presented.
• Lastly, and maybe most importantly, the GRE's don't get you in - they just keep you out. You can use that money for much better things

[liszt85]

For myself, I'm trying to find any way to score above 1500, preferably above 1550, which I hope will offset all of the many serious flaws in what will be my application.

Probably won't happen even if you get 1600 and the rest of your application is weak (as you claim it is). Many people like you are planning to either take grad level classes for credit..to prove that they can fare well in coursework. I believe something like that will be a better use of your time. Feel free to get worked up but this is the truth and you will realize it sooner or later. Would be nice if you realized it before you wasted your money on an expensive GRE course when you already scored 1430.

[Roger Van Dijk]

This is my GRE story. I was applying for admission to Columbia University in their Master's programme in Political Science. The admissions office told me that I needed a Quantitative score of at least 750 to be eligible for consideration. It looked as if the school did not have a specific minimum for verbal or AWA scores.

(1) I took the GRE exam twice: once in October 2008 and again in December 2008, all after studying on my own. Worked through Kaplan and ETS guide for GRE prep.

(2) My scores from October 2008 GRE's are; AWA 4.5; Verbal 630; Quant: 670. Not good enough for admission to Columbia. So, registered again to take the GRE in December 2008.

(3) My scores from December 2008 GRE's are: AWA 4.5; Verbal 650; Quant: 660. At this point, I was frustrated.

(4) Self study is not working for me in terms of helping me achieve the target score of 750 in maths. Did some research on the Internet and enrolling in Mlic's GRE turboprep class in London. Soon after enrolling, I received a file dump, with all sorts of study materials and tests. Called the Mlic company in desperation and asked for guidance on how to proceed.

(5) I explained my situation and said that I was going to just focus on the AWA score and the Quant score going forward. I was asked to prep through the essays file and the mathematics preprogramme assignment file.

(6) The company gives you a terrific template for the argument essays but merely suggests that you create two different perspectives for the issue essay. I worked on 6 essays and turned them in before the start of in-class training.

(7) Worked through the quant assignment file which covered some really great stuff in algebra, statistics, and gave me amazing strategies for working on quantitative comparison section. In hindsight, it was probably the comparison problems that let me down. I was beginning to get some new insights into how to approach this section. Was that the missing link?

I could not wait to attend the classroom training.

(8) The Mlic classroom training quickly escalated to high difficulty levels of GRE math and covered sections that I had not seen in other books. Sequences, arithmetic progression, cool problems in exponents and geometry, and all the drilling in comparison problems.

(9) I was required to take the GRE's again within 30 days of finishing the training in December. So, I got a GRE date in January 2009, and took the test. At the end of the day, when

I asked for my score report, my quant score was 770. I could not believe it. I had skipped the verbal sections (I received two sections, one obviously not scored).

(10) I waited for the official score to arrive to confirm my quant score. My official score report read: AWA 5.0; Quant: 770; Verbal; --

(11) I applied to Columbia with the new maths scores and was accepted.

(12) So, I am thankful to Mlic for a great GRE course. I could not have made 770 in maths without Mlic course.

[someDay]

@DrFaustus666: Universities don't give credit for "fair share of life-problems". Your application is weak, from an academic point of view you've pretty much wasted your life. A perfect GRE result, whilst demonstrating your commitment, would not significantly strengthen your application. Prescience is not my strongest point, but there's no way in hell a top uni is going to accept you. It'll be tough enough to get accept *somewhere*.

sD.

[DrFaustus666]

A couple of points to consider:

• There's a decreasing marginal utility to these courses. That person you mentioned who increased his or her score by 250 points was only able to do so because that course had a lot to teach someone with such a low score. In your case, the course will probably be able to give you a few helpful hints but nothing ground-breaking, I'm sure.
• Getting your GRE Q up likely just requires more practice on your part(don't get Kaplan's Advanced Math Book though, they're either terrible editors or themselves don't know how to do basic math). Practice, find where you make careless mistakes(i'm sure you know all the math required and your score is probably just low due to careless errors/time), get faster at recognizing the type of problem presented.
• Lastly, and maybe most importantly, the GRE's don't get you in - they just keep you out. You can use that money for much better things

Too late about Kaplan's "Advanced Math" book ... I bought it several months ago ... and actually thought of making a project out of finding all the typos in it ... then I got frustrated and decided it wasn't worth the trouble.

And in my checkered career, I have been an editor myself, and I agree, this book is one of the most poorly edited I've ever seen

Thanks !

John

[DrFaustus666]

@DrFaustus666: Universities don't give credit for "fair share of life-problems". Your application is weak, from an academic point of view you've pretty much wasted your life. A perfect GRE result, whilst demonstrating your commitment, would not significantly strengthen your application. Prescience is not my strongest point, but there's no way in hell a top uni is going to accept you. It'll be tough enough to get accept *somewhere*.

sD.

"pretty much wasted my life eh?"

Boy, you're a right ray of sunshine, aren't you? as the Brits say.

Well ... you've hit a nerve and now I'm going to do my best to prove you wrong.

I'm currently enrolled in an MA in Germanic Studies at a probably Top-30 University, (4.0 average) already have another MA from that same university (3.8 avg), and the Chairman of the German Department has already told me they'd be pleased to accept me for a PhD in my current field (Germanic Studies).

But I'm setting my sights higher yet. I want to go to a very prestigious school, in a related but multidisciplinary field. And you MIGHT be right, it MIGHT be futile, but, dammit, I'm going to let THEM reject me, not give up because YOU say I should.

By the way, if you'd like to meet somebody even more pessimistic than yourself, there are other posters on this forum with whom I could arrange an introduction if you like.

So, damn the torpedoes, and full speed ahead.

Edited March 12, 2010 by DrFaustus666

[DrFaustus666]

This is my GRE story. I was applying for admission to Columbia University in their Master's programme in Political Science. The admissions office told me that I needed a Quantitative score of at least 750 to be eligible for consideration. It looked as if the school did not have a specific minimum for verbal or AWA scores.

(1) I took the GRE exam twice: once in October 2008 and again in December 2008, all after studying on my own. Worked through Kaplan and ETS guide for GRE prep.

(2) My scores from October 2008 GRE's are; AWA 4.5; Verbal 630; Quant: 670. Not good enough for admission to Columbia. So, registered again to take the GRE in December 2008.

(3) My scores from December 2008 GRE's are: AWA 4.5; Verbal 650; Quant: 660. At this point, I was frustrated.

(4) Self study is not working for me in terms of helping me achieve the target score of 750 in maths. Did some research on the Internet and enrolling in Mlic's GRE turboprep class in London. Soon after enrolling, I received a file dump, with all sorts of study materials and tests. Called the Mlic company in desperation and asked for guidance on how to proceed.

(5) I explained my situation and said that I was going to just focus on the AWA score and the Quant score going forward. I was asked to prep through the essays file and the mathematics preprogramme assignment file.

(6) The company gives you a terrific template for the argument essays but merely suggests that you create two different perspectives for the issue essay. I worked on 6 essays and turned them in before the start of in-class training.

(7) Worked through the quant assignment file which covered some really great stuff in algebra, statistics, and gave me amazing strategies for working on quantitative comparison section. In hindsight, it was probably the comparison problems that let me down. I was beginning to get some new insights into how to approach this section. Was that the missing link?

I could not wait to attend the classroom training.

(8) The Mlic classroom training quickly escalated to high difficulty levels of GRE math and covered sections that I had not seen in other books. Sequences, arithmetic progression, cool problems in exponents and geometry, and all the drilling in comparison problems.

(9) I was required to take the GRE's again within 30 days of finishing the training in December. So, I got a GRE date in January 2009, and took the test. At the end of the day, when

I asked for my score report, my quant score was 770. I could not believe it. I had skipped the verbal sections (I received two sections, one obviously not scored).

(10) I waited for the official score to arrive to confirm my quant score. My official score report read: AWA 5.0; Quant: 770; Verbal; --

(11) I applied to Columbia with the new maths scores and was accepted.

(12) So, I am thankful to Mlic for a great GRE course. I could not have made 770 in maths without Mlic course.

Thank you. That's what I wanted to know!

John

[liszt85]

"pretty much wasted my life eh?"

Boy, you're a right ray of sunshine, aren't you? as the Brits say.

Well ... you've hit a nerve and now I'm going to do my best to prove you wrong.

I'm currently enrolled in an MA in Germanic Studies at a probably Top-30 University, (4.0 average) already have another MA from that same university (3.8 avg), and the Chairman of the German Department has already told me they'd be pleased to accept me for a PhD in my current field (Germanic Studies).

But I'm setting my sights higher yet. I want to go to a very prestigious school, in a related but multidisciplinary field. And you MIGHT be right, it MIGHT be futile, but, dammit, I'm going to let THEM reject me, not give up because YOU say I should.

By the way, if you'd like to meet somebody even more pessimistic than yourself, there are other posters on this forum with whom I could arrange an introduction if you like.

So, damn the torpedoes, and full speed ahead.

First of all, you seem to have no idea about grad school admission procedures. You didn't mention your MA's and your GPA's in them in your original post. Grad schools tend to look at your recent degrees and pay less attention to your undergraduate gpa in that case. If your application was as weak as you claimed it was, I guarantee you that a 1600 would not have got you in at any of the top prestigious universities. You don't call me a pessimist, you call me a realist. Only when you acknowledge facts can you work towards improving the relevant parts of your application. Be as dramatic as you want to be, that's not going to change the truth. Now that you've mentioned your MA degrees, you might stand a chance.. Anyway, like I said before, you don't seem to have a clue about this which is why you didn't even mention those MA's. You believe your friends are the ones who say "Well done John! Well done.. you will get in for sure no matter what, go do it!" as opposed to "John, lets look at this realistically..here are the parts of your application you must improve, your GRE is good enough. I speak from experience, follow this advice and you may get good results". Your friends are not the ones who incessantly make you feel good, whether or not what you say makes sense. I thought these were lessons in life that you probably learnt even before I was born but looks like I'm mistaken.

So yes, feel free to introduce me as a pessimist to whoever you want but none of that is going to change how admission committees work.

[DrFaustus666]

First of all, you seem to have no idea about grad school admission procedures. You didn't mention your MA's and your GPA's in them in your original post. Grad schools tend to look at your recent degrees and pay less attention to your undergraduate gpa in that case. If your application was as weak as you claimed it was, I guarantee you that a 1600 would not have got you in at any of the top prestigious universities. You don't call me a pessimist, you call me a realist. Only when you acknowledge facts can you work towards improving the relevant parts of your application. Be as dramatic as you want to be, that's not going to change the truth. Now that you've mentioned your MA degrees, you might stand a chance.. Anyway, like I said before, you don't seem to have a clue about this which is why you didn't even mention those MA's. You believe your friends are the ones who say "Well done John! Well done.. you will get in for sure no matter what, go do it!" as opposed to "John, lets look at this realistically..here are the parts of your application you must improve, your GRE is good enough. I speak from experience, follow this advice and you may get good results". Your friends are not the ones who incessantly make you feel good, whether or not what you say makes sense. I thought these were lessons in life that you probably learnt even before I was born but looks like I'm mistaken.

So yes, feel free to introduce me as a pessimist to whoever you want but none of that is going to change how admission committees work.

Hi Liszt,

It was NOT you to whom I was referring as a pessimist, it was the well-known poster whose name begins with a synonym for ocean!

No, I agree, you are a realist ... and I DID mention my MA degrees earlier, though possibly not on this thread.

And you're right, I don't have a clue as to how this is done because, despite my miserable undergraduate record ... believe it or not ... I have been admitted to every graduate school to which I've applied ... every single one (over the years, about fifteen or twenty total, between the two different majors)!

The difference is, those were all mid-range schools, (though the best of them, the school where I earned MA #1 and am working on MA #2, University of Maryland, is pushing hard to make itself a top (abeit) state university). Indeed in some fields such as computer science, U of MD is a top 20 university already, if not a top 10 university.

In the case of my first field, Music, nobody gives a ratt's butt about grades or GREs or recommendations (though there was a GRE Subject Test in music way back then, and I scored 99th percentile on that!) ... or even TOEFLs ... ! .. All they cared about was that I PLAYED my instrument well enough to pass their audition.

In my second field, German, again, all the committee cared about---and told me they were astonished by, I might add---was that I've taught MYSELF to speak read and write German on a level equivalent to a (GPA 3.6-ish) BA in German, but have never set foot in a German speaking country, nor lived with a speaker of German, nor learned the language in any of the more usual and conventional ways. I just got out the books and a dictionary and a journal for newly learned words, and started reading .... Just like that. Granted, it took me over ten years to reach the proficiency normally obtained by one junior-year of living in Germany ... BUT I DID IT with nothing but my own resources and my own drive.

And now, as I near retirement age, and no longer have a termagant of a wife to live with, nor children with debilitating mental illness to consume almost all of my free time, to say nothing of consuming the equivalent of several years tuition at a top private university ...

NOW I'm beginning a new adventure ... I'd like to become a REAL scholar, with credentials from, if not a top-ranked university, at least a top-ranked program in an overall-mid-ranked university.

So, Liszt, I DO appreciate your openness and directness. And I agree that no progress is possible without knowing one's weaknesses. But I won't accept the other couple of posters' assessments that I've "ruined my life" ... just because I partied too much in my freshman year .... not until the Ad Comm at my top five choices all tell me that, anyway.

Take care, and remaining a friend(?),

John

[lily_]

I've been wondering the same thing about those classes myself. They are super expensive, but could it be worth it? Have you heard about the new GRE coming this year?

Sorry I don't have much to add, I raised my score by over 200 points the first time just studying, but I don't think I raised it enough, so I'm mulling over the classes as well.

And, I'm in the same boat with you about my UGPA. People who say things like "you've wasted your life" or are negative nancies about getting into grad school kind of make me want to prove them wrong as well. Do tell if you end up taking the classes and break the 1300-1400 range and best of luck!

[someDay]

@DrFaustus666: In case you're referring to my post, let me clarify. Whether you have lived your life to the fullest I do not know, but judging by your postings here what you haven't done in this time is the only thing that matters in academia, namely research. It will take you another couple of years to learn this, by which you'll be in your mid sixties. You might be able to publish some interesting papers, but you can't make up for all those years.

I understand you want to do a PhD in music theory / computer science. Label me a pessimist, but I don't see how a Master's degree in German will greatly support your application. It's great you managed to overcome difficulties in your life and learning a foreign language on your own initiative deserves a lot of credit, but stamina is just one of the skills required for a PhD. It's fine to have a dream, but a significant part of your dream- and the way you present yourself here - seems to be more about recognition rather than academic curiosity. The latter I encourage, the first is up to you to prove. As you quite rightly point out, I am not the one making decisions, but my I believe my conclusions resonate with a majority of posters here.

Wunschträume sind schön, aber meist nur Träume.

sD.

Edited March 12, 2010 by someDay

[DrFaustus666]

@DrFaustus666: In case you're referring to my post, let me clarify. Whether you have lived your life to the fullest I do not know, but judging by your postings here what you haven't done in this time is the only thing that matters in academia, namely research. It will take you another couple of years to learn this, by which you'll be in your mid sixties. You might be able to publish some interesting papers, but you can't make up for all those years.

I understand you want to do a PhD in music theory / computer science. Label me a pessimist, but I don't see how a Master's degree in German will greatly support your application. It's great you managed to overcome difficulties in your life and learning a foreign language on your own initiative deserves a lot of credit, but stamina is just one of the skills required for a PhD. It's fine to have a dream, but a significant part of your dream- and the way you present yourself here - seems to be more about recognition rather than academic curiosity. The latter I encourage, the first is up to you to prove. As you quite rightly point out, I am not the one making decisions, but my I believe my conclusions resonate with a majority of posters here.

Wunschträume sind schön, aber meist nur Träume.

sD.

Dass Dein Sprichwort vielleicht für meine Ziele gälte, erregt in mir eine ganz unheimliche Mischung von Angst und selbstabwertender Resignation, wenn nicht von vollkommenem Selbsthass. Du hast Scharfsinn, ohne Zweifel.

I failed to mention that I'd like to try to build computer models to analyze in what ways the peculiarities of the German language have influenced the history and structure (read: harmonies, melodic structures, formal structures) of German vocal music. That's how the MA in German supports the interdisciplinary PhD idea.

I also forgot to mention (silly me!) that in my free time I've taken about 30 credits of Computer Science courses (3.8 avg). No, I have no degree of any kind in C.S., but in my deadly dull information technology job in the bureaucracy of the USA's criminal justice system, I supervise people, several of whom have MS in CS; one of them, years ago, hailed from from MIT.

BUT you've somehow also discovered that I have a strong drive for recognition, and you are right. I've always felt second best, second place, "also ran" etc etc etc etc and maybe I shouldn't go to graduate school but spend an equivalent amount of time and effort in a psychiatrist's coach, I dunno. But I love to study and learn--in fact I'm unstoppable in that respect--AND I want to be respected for it. Is that so bad?

[DrFaustus666]

I've been wondering the same thing about those classes myself. They are super expensive, but could it be worth it? Have you heard about the new GRE coming this year?

Sorry I don't have much to add, I raised my score by over 200 points the first time just studying, but I don't think I raised it enough, so I'm mulling over the classes as well.

And, I'm in the same boat with you about my UGPA. People who say things like "you've wasted your life" or are negative nancies about getting into grad school kind of make me want to prove them wrong as well. Do tell if you end up taking the classes and break the 1300-1400 range and best of luck!

Hi Lily,

Thanks for your nice post! And good luck to you whatever you do. I will take the course, most likely late in April, based on Roger Van Dijk's recommendation (see above). As to breaking 1300-1400, I've already done that. I'm shooting for 1550-1600 so as to make up for my patchy background and MAYBE just MAYBE get me into a top-notch program.

Again good luck!

Also, as a final thought, I remembered on my commute to work today, that former U.S. President Calvin Coolidge, one of the most unremarkable presidents, earned his degree from very prestigious Amherst College, whereas several other presidents of the USA attended quite inconsiderable schools, and one or two (including Abraham Lincoln, I THINK?!?) did not attend any college.

Take care,

John

But I will let

[mb1212]

Just so you are aware, the guy who runs MLIC, the test prep company Roger Van Dijk mentions, regularly posts salutary accounts of course attendees on GRE forums (google them and you will see) as advertisement. I know people who have taken the course, and they were not impressed. Not saying this is one, but you should be aware of this. Also, I echo what others have said: getting rid of careless errors on the math section will significantly raise your score. The math is easy. It is not having done it in a long time combined with racing the clock that oftern leads to lower scores- at least for some of us.

[liszt85]

NOW I'm beginning a new adventure ... I'd like to become a REAL scholar, with credentials from, if not a top-ranked university, at least a top-ranked program in an overall-mid-ranked university.

Take care, and remaining a friend(?),

John

Being the friend that I am, I am concerned about your obsession with rankings. What exactly drives your passion (other than wanting to go to MIT or wherever to prove all these people wrong)? What do you want to be contributing as a scholar to? All you've talked about is "I want to go to rank 1 (either university or department)". That to a lot of us is the wrong reason to go to grad school and more importantly will prove to be a major hurdle (the attitude) that will stand in the way of success in grad school. Some of this attitude will also be reflected in your SOP. Admission committees are very competent. They have this uncanny ability (most of the time) to see who's really passionate about the research there and who's applying only for the name/credentials/other non significant reasons.

I guess this is what someDay was trying to say too. So the best thing for you to do would be to take some classes relevant to the field that you will be applying to, get some research experience (voluntary/unpaid if it needs to be), develop a keen interest and dedication to the field and then apply. You will stand a much greater chance of being accepted to your top choice if you do this than if you spent all your money on a GRE course or spent your time giving yourself motivational speeches "I'm not getting any younger" is not a good enough reason not to do this, unfortunately.

EDIT: I just saw now, after many posts in this thread, that you've started talking about what your passions are. I also see you mention classes that you've taken. I see you mention these things after mentioning a lot of unimportant (bad) aspects of your application.. Now, I'm beginning to think you are the pessimist and again, this is going to be reflected in your SOP. So unless you stop worrying about your decades old ug gpa and start concentrating on the strong parts of your application, you are going to face difficulties getting accepted. I now sense that you probably have stuff in your background that could make your application strong, if you're willing to focus on those.

Edited March 12, 2010 by liszt85

[liszt85]

Also for your field of interest, a lot of interesting work is being done in Europe. Maybe you should stop focusing only on top ranked grad schools in the US.. have you identified people who do the stuff that you would like to do? Have you identified potential advisers? If not, those are things you might want to consider getting started on.

[DrFaustus666]

Also for your field of interest, a lot of interesting work is being done in Europe. Maybe you should stop focusing only on top ranked grad schools in the US.. have you identified people who do the stuff that you would like to do? Have you identified potential advisers? If not, those are things you might want to consider getting started on.

Hi again Liszt,

Am just beginning to focus on the things you mention .... up until VERY recently, literally, the last couple of weeks, I naively assumed that the only places one could do top-notch research are top-notch (read: big-name) universities.

A very recent acquaintance in the real world--(a woman I just began dating in fact, whose law degree is from that very well known university in Cambridge, MA)--has disabused me of this misconception. She says her own alma mater and other big-name schools can be and often are overrated if my goal is to study and learn and add to the world's knowledge base.

So, to answer your question, no, I don't really know the state of the art of computer modeling of music, German or otherwise, but finding out is definitely on my "to do" list. I should get on the internet, find out who's done what, where .... download their software, including source code, if they'll let me, or at least read their papers and obtain a nodding familiarity with the cutting edge work. ... And, following your and my GF's advice, then, if the best and most innovative stuff is being done at the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople (special Dr Faustus trivia award if you can identify this allusion), then that's where I should apply.

I've moved a bit slowly on this because I still have one daughter's undergraduate college tuition to pay (expensive private liberal arts college, what else?), as well as financial obligations to my former spouse. The point being, I can't really start serious grad school until I can retire from my embarassingly high-paid but useless job -- and I can't do that until the debts and alimony run out. So I have some time.

And, finally ... your psych background serves you well .... I DO indeed have a pessimistic, dark side, as my two brothers have been telling me since I was about twelve yrs old.

Thanks again for your thoughtful posts.

John

[cpu90]

Being the friend that I am, I am concerned about your obsession with rankings. What exactly drives your passion (other than wanting to go to MIT or wherever to prove all these people wrong)? What do you want to be contributing as a scholar to? All you've talked about is "I want to go to rank 1 (either university or department)". That to a lot of us is the wrong reason to go to grad school and more importantly will prove to be a major hurdle (the attitude) that will stand in the way of success in grad school. Some of this attitude will also be reflected in your SOP. Admission committees are very competent. They have this uncanny ability (most of the time) to see who's really passionate about the research there and who's applying only for the name/credentials/other non significant reasons.

I guess this is what someDay was trying to say too. So the best thing for you to do would be to take some classes relevant to the field that you will be applying to, get some research experience (voluntary/unpaid if it needs to be), develop a keen interest and dedication to the field and then apply. You will stand a much greater chance of being accepted to your top choice if you do this than if you spent all your money on a GRE course or spent your time giving yourself motivational speeches "I'm not getting any younger" is not a good enough reason not to do this, unfortunately.

EDIT: I just saw now, after many posts in this thread, that you've started talking about what your passions are. I also see you mention classes that you've taken. I see you mention these things after mentioning a lot of unimportant (bad) aspects of your application.. Now, I'm beginning to think you are the pessimist and again, this is going to be reflected in your SOP. So unless you stop worrying about your decades old ug gpa and start concentrating on the strong parts of your application, you are going to face difficulties getting accepted. I now sense that you probably have stuff in your background that could make your application strong, if you're willing to focus on those.

Chill out, all of you.

I'm a guy applying to CS phd with 2 MS under my belt, good number and quality of publications, awesome LOR, custom SOP for each school that I applied, Good enough GRE, but a BAD undergrad GPA of 2.71 cume and 2.5 major. In the end I get 3 wait listed, 1 fully funded offer, and 10+ rejections. I'm not even applying to top notch schools like MIT (I do have awesome schools such as berkeley, cornell, etc). Refer to my other post for my detailed stat and school list.

Bottom line is guys, I think undergrad GPA is important, more important than you think for admission. Research experience affects more of funding opportunities. Many people apply straight out of undergrad and get into great schools, and they don't have many publications, and so the grad schools do look at undergrad GPA more than grad GPA. I'd say that scoring 1300 GRE is no difference from scoring 1500, it is simply a pre-screening cut-off type of thing. Maybe 1500 will get you funding later on, but in terms of admission I think as long as you score 1250+ you'll be pretty safe as in being reviewed by the committee and not screened out by the secretary.

I admire your passion DrFaustus666, while I myself is the realest case of a person who had terrible undergrad GPA and tried to do well later on, but it doesn't matter, I'm just still not being accepted by those places. But I do hope you will not be the 2nd me. My dream was to 1 day write a book called " from 1.9 to MIT" to inspire people that a low undergrad GPA will not doom you for life (my freshman gpa was 1.9 and I was suspended for 1 semester!), but I guess in the end I can only write something like "from 1.9 to stony brook", which probably won't sell much.

[DrFaustus666]

Chill out, all of you.

I'm a guy applying to CS phd with 2 MS under my belt, good number and quality of publications, awesome LOR, custom SOP for each school that I applied, Good enough GRE, but a BAD undergrad GPA of 2.71 cume and 2.5 major. In the end I get 3 wait listed, 1 fully funded offer, and 10+ rejections. I'm not even applying to top notch schools like MIT (I do have awesome schools such as berkeley, cornell, etc). Refer to my other post for my detailed stat and school list.

Bottom line is guys, I think undergrad GPA is important, more important than you think for admission. Research experience affects more of funding opportunities. Many people apply straight out of undergrad and get into great schools, and they don't have many publications, and so the grad schools do look at undergrad GPA more than grad GPA. I'd say that scoring 1300 GRE is no difference from scoring 1500, it is simply a pre-screening cut-off type of thing. Maybe 1500 will get you funding later on, but in terms of admission I think as long as you score 1250+ you'll be pretty safe as in being reviewed by the committee and not screened out by the secretary.

I admire your passion DrFaustus666, while I myself is the realest case of a person who had terrible undergrad GPA and tried to do well later on, but it doesn't matter, I'm just still not being accepted by those places. But I do hope you will not be the 2nd me. My dream was to 1 day write a book called " from 1.9 to MIT" to inspire people that a low undergrad GPA will not doom you for life (my freshman gpa was 1.9 and I was suspended for 1 semester!), but I guess in the end I can only write something like "from 1.9 to stony brook", which probably won't sell much.

Hi CPU 90, and anyone else who's interested in kicking this long dead horse "just one more time" ,

I do hope I am mostly on target and you are mostly still reeling from your undergrad experience.

I have three specific cases to cite. Two of these concern people I know personally, the first is from a book I read.

Case #1. Although the book is actually addressed to high school students seeking admission into colleges, I urge you to buy (or better yet, check out from your local library, a copy of a book called "Harvard Schmarvard" by { insert first name here } Matthews .... it focuses on smaller institutions with superior faculties, the members of which have burning desires to TEACH, to share their knowledge, etc.

One chapter of it in particular is, Create your own Harvard. ... WHAT A CONCEPT ! ... Matthews cites the case of a student he knew, who, if my memory is right, came out of an inner city high school with so-so grades. The student was admitted, probably by the skin of his teeth, to Virginia Commonwealth University, which ranks about 5th or 6th of out 10 among Virginia's state colleges, far below Virginia's #1 and #2 University of Virginia, and the College of William and Mary (VCU does have nice campus though! been there!).

The kid worked his butt off, lived in the library and the lab, schmoozed the professors, read research journals intended for working MD's, while he himself was struggling with organic chemistry, went to every conference he could wrangle an invitation to, even if it meant he had to wait tables at the reception to get in to the conference, and interned in hospitals. Again, as often as not, his "hospital experience" was doing things like cleaning bedpans, BUT ALSO chatting with any doctor or nurse who was willing to talk to him ---- and eventually he got into Harvard Medical School.

Case #2. A good friend went to SUNY Stony Brook, majored in English. After languishing for about five years in a totally dead-end job ... he did the same sort of thing ... and after LOTS of remedial work on his OWN TIME, got into Georgetown Law School, and is now a partner in a small Washington, DC law firm --- his home has about seven bedrooms and five baths, ....and uh ... oh yeah, he just bought a smaller weekend home in the lovely town of Annapolis, Maryland.

Case #3. My own brother is now a research chemist (Ph.D., UNC in Research Triangle) for Pfizer --- and he had a 1.9 HS GPA (or seriously, it might have been a 1.7, I don't remember and don't want to embarass him by asking him). He had undiagnosed ADHD ... he went to a community college, finished two years of college in one year, then went to UNC, earned a B.S., then M.S., then PhD. (He had no funding but didn't need it -- in the meantime, he'd spent 20 years as an enlisted man in the U.S. Army, and so he got Uncle Sam to pay his way through college and grad school).

Summing Up

It CAN be done. It's not easy, but it can be done. I'm pinning my dreams on that and I hope you won't give up your dreams.

Stellar GRE Score?

As to VERY high GRE scores, I think the consensus agrees with you. Very high scores may help with funding, but then again they may not. Among grad students ALREADY admitted, the person with a 1570 GRE (770-V, 800-Q) has a better chance of landing that "Throckmorton B. Ellis-Willibard Fellowship in Advanced Heuristic Neural Networks" at PICK-A-HIGH-TECH-U than the person who got a 1290.

As many have said, and I'm grudgingly beginning to believe, one's GRE score cannot get you into a top school, but it can keep you out.

Be that as it may, "Full Steam Ahead" GOOD LUCK TO YOU! And don't lose heart.

Hang in there,

Keep studying, keep working, and keep in touch!

John

[Joelene]

Hi all,

For any of you who may remember me, I'm still not really satisfied with my most recent GRE score (740V 690Q).

Please, before anyone tells me that my undergraduate grades are more important and my GRE is already very good---my undergrad GPA of 2.7 from a 2nd-tier school STINKS---and I earned my BA in 1974, waay before most of youse people were born---or my letters or recommendation are really important---those are likely to be lukewarm too because of my personal situation, it's taken me five years to get half way thru a (second) master's degree. All of my 1st MA profs are retired, except one who died, and one of my 2nd MA profs recently retired.

So I'm putting all my eggs into hopes of getting a really superior, not just very good, but superior, stellar GRE score---hoping against hope that a top-notch school will forgive all if I explain the situation and show them I'm not a dummy and I'm not lazy, I've just had a lot more than my share of life-problems coupled with early immaturity.

To wit, regarding

http://www.greprep.org/

They're VERY expensive and intense, but they actually guarantee a 1300 score even if you come in sub 1000 .... I talked to a rep on the phone. They claim to have a very extensive and accurate diagnostic system plus an individually tailored instruction course plus TONS of required and individually targeted homework ...

The guy I talked to said he thought there'd be no problem for me, if I take their course, to hit the upper 700's, maybe even an 800, in Quantitative, which is my Achilles heel. He claimed they regularly get people who come in with 500Q and after their course, score over 700Q.

Has anyone used this company, and if so, what did you think?

John

I know this has been battered around a bit but I am looking at the same thing, I found a similar service offering to let you have at their gre practice test until you get it right, OR they will give you a refund if you don't like anything about the test.

My GRE could use some improvement, and few things in education are guaranteed so I'm tempted to jump all over it.

I didn't read through all the flaming and pointless discussions, but did the gre prep work well Dr.Faustus?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Joelene